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Hello and welcome to Word and Work an Intersection.

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I'm your host Dale Meyer.

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This hour we'll talk with Dr.

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Joel Biermann.

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Dr.

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Bierman is a professor of Systematic Theology here at Concordia

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Seminary and one of his areas of interest is Christian ethics,

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especially how Christian ethics interact with the world. His book

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"Wholly Citizens" explores his topic in great detail.

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How do we as Christians interface with our secular culture and the

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government?

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That's today's topic.

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Welcome Joel.

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Thank you for being here.

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Good to be here. You're doing well

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I assume? The retired guy can't

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keep up with all you profs the way I used to. No, I am doing very well. Things

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are good.

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Great.

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We always want to know about the background of our guest and let me

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get out of this way.

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How's your father.

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My father is good.

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My father raised me in a parsonage.

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That's my background so my dad is a pastor.

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He served the parish is all over the Midwest, Nebraska and Michigan

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Iowa or Wisconsin and retired to Illinois and Nebraska, but now he's

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back in Illinois.

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Not too far just across the river in Bethalto, Illinois. And where did he retire first in Illinois? He was in Paris where your mother lives.

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Paris, that's why I asked if they were together in the Grace Village an

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independent living in Paris, Illinois, and he took care of the garden.

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He was involved in quit a few things there. But now where is he?

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He's at a Villa Rose over in Bethalto, which is another independent

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living retirement kind of home and enjoying it because he's got people

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he can hang out with and do things with and it's getting a little

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lonely in, Nebraska.

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Siblings.

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Yeah, I've got two brothers who are one's in the ministry and one is serving as

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president of Blackburn College up in Carlinville. He's close too.

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And before that he had been in Valparaiso. Right.

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Yes. Really good. And your own family are all great got three kids in the area and

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nine grandkids all in the area.

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So life is exciting.

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Well, that's wonderful. It is.

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What classes do you teach here at Concordia?

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But but first, let's let me backup Systemics.

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What does that mean in in common folks terms. Systematic Theology is one of the four branches

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we have here at the Seminary. One of the divisions and Systematic Theology basically is trying to take

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the teachings in the church's history that Church's history and the

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church's exegetical work in the Bible and then put them together in

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ways that are coherent and consistent and ways that are understandable.

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So we kind of like catechisms.

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Systematic Theology confessions a Systematic Theology to explaining

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the doctrines and applying them to the world today that Systematic

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Theology. So it is it is like catechism at a very high level. Yeah, it can be.  And one of

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the things that I like that you said is there there have been

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systematic classes and professors who just dealt with with the

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doctrinal aspect. But you mentioned how they interact with the world

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today. I would argue for Systematic Theology to be fatihful has to always take into account the context of the situation in the world and then apply God's

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truth to that context.

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That's what Systematic Theology does.

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That's why it's moving and it's not static.

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If you just study what Luther said or what Walter said or what

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Gearhardt you're basically doing historical theology, which has its place.

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But Systematic Theology is saying what does it mean today or we are so

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that's what I'm interested. Well this 21st century in America in the

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dysfunction did it is in now.

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Its got to be a rich time for systemics.

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It's always

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there's always something but yeah, there's a lot to think about and

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lot to consider. How how do we proclaim Christ faithfully in a

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world

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that's like it like it is now and it's fascinating. And we're not in the

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1950s anymore now.

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Well no. Yeah. Yeah.

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I always heard great things about your classes from from students.

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Also you speak off campus at various things and and the reports are

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that you're always stimulating.

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Dr.

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Bierman is always stimulating. What classes do you teach here?

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I'm pretty much the basic systematic sequence.

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My interest is more doctrinal theology.

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But I teach the introduction to Systematic Theology.

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I can check course of Systematics one, church and world Systematics two.

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So I do the Church in Ministry we do Jesus Christology, Soteriology all the

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basic stuff.

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So let's unpack that I'm a new student and I'm going to take

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Systematics one with Biermann.

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You would be a second year guy then. Okay. We save the good prof the

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second year.

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So, what does that mean?

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What am I going to be studying while you're going to start with your

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as a first-year guy you going to start with Introductions to Systematic

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Theology and that's where you going to learn things like the basic

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ways.

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We operate some of the basic fundamental distinctions

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Law and Gospel two kinds of righteousness the the two realms and how

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those interrelate. What it means to be a faithful Theologian. How God

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speaks and how we know truth.

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Where does this come from?

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And we ground things primarily in the narrative of Christ the

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revelation of what he's given to us and then draw things out of that

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help students see all that.

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So in the first year, I'm learning the categories and the language?

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Pretty much, yeah a lot of that. And then you start you spend your second part of the your

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first year doing confessions and Creeds getting the foundation there.

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Then Systematics one

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we start getting more into Christology, creation, anthropology, sin,

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Salvation, soteriology, we get into some comparative religion stuff a

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little bit.

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So they know how Christianity is distinct from Buddhism or Hinduism,

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Islam and those kinds of things.

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So we do a little of everything. So Systematics 1 and 2 are deep dives.

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They are they are they're the kind of turning it at certain Losi or

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certain categories within the systemic sphere things.

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Yeah. Of all the classes you teach have taught what's your favorite?

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That's always a good question. I like teaching the upper level stuff.

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I like Systemics two is fourth year guys who come back and they tend to be

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a little bit more serious now because it's getting real, so that is fun to

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do. And and I enjoy teaching the elective courses. I teach a

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Law and Gospel course. I teach a class, man and woman in Christ, and

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that's a lot of fun,

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so I enjoy those. And I assume you teach graduate courses as well? Oh yeah, yeah. And you are

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Doctor father to PhD students.

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I've got a couple of in the pipeline and so on and get their

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work done in

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guiding directing sure.

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I need to tell our audience our professors are busy least most of them

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are very very busy. Yeah.

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Now when I think now in retirement about about studying and I'm and I'm

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blessed to still teach some classes.

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I have one PhD student that takes takes up time. That does. It really takes up time.

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They give you a jump to read and you got to read through it all and

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sort it out

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it takes awhile. Here at Concordia Seminary

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we're not only interested in providing pastors and deaconess to the

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church.

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We also give resources to lay people and and one of the things that we

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offer regularly is a Lay Bible Institute seminars, this happens

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several times a year. Sometimes it's on a Saturday,

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sometimes it happens four weeknights. And that depends upon the season and

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the professor, what the preferences

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are. You've done Lay Bible Institutes right? I've done several actually now and I just want to most

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recently was on kind of spinning off

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my book, "Wholly Citizens" and especially exploring what it means to be a

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Christian Living in America today thinking more directly about church

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state kind of things and especially with the election just around the

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corner. Trying to address some of the questions about who should I vote

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for?

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How should I vote as a Christian?

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You know, what what to be motivating a Christian what's different

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about us?

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Then how other Americans go about the task of being political?

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"Wholly Citizens" that's the title of the book and of one of your Lay Bible Institutes. That's correct.

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How do you spell wholly? With a "w". Wholly complete the whole thing. Okay that's for our radio

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listeners.

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Holy because I mean. Right. And the Christian will think both ways with a W

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and with an H.

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"Wholly Citizens" this is available

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at Scholar.csl.edu so you can access that website scholar.

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csl.edu and and and see with Professor Biermann has offered and what

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other professors offer. As part of our continuing effort not only to

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resource pastors with continuing education, but also to give resources

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to lay people the priesthood of all believers.

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Benefits from this so. Amen, yeah.

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scholar.csl.edu. scholar.csl.edu.

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Okay, I think so.

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What are you thinking about having been president here is

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I'm always corrected.

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I just wanted people to go to find it

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that's all

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okay. OK and before the program is over will bring that up again. Alright.

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There are actually literally thousands of materials are available from

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process old lectures sermons on the entire courses.

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It's remarkable

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how much is there is free for the taking and you can anybody can go

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there type in a name, type in a topic and bam you get all kinds of

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hits and just listen to your heart's content.

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It's tremendous if your pastor take advantage of it if you're lay

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person take advantage of it and ask your pastor if he accesses. I get

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emails from people sometime they say I've listened to your entire

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course on man and woman while driving that combine or I listen to you

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know, Systematics two while I'm out working so it's pretty cool, community.

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What is the premise of "Wholly Citizen"? The basic idea is to recognize

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that our

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Christian Life is meant to incorporate and encompass everything in our

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lives.

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It's not just my Jesus part or my God part or my church part that

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okay.

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I'm going to do my church thing and raise my kids right now

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I've got the rest my life.

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Now, we need to see our entire lives in the context of God's work. And

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the premise of "Wholly Citizens" is really a kind of digging into what did

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Luther actually teach about this idea of the two kingdoms.

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You'll hear this frequently. Luther's doctrine of the two kingdoms.

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So I want to explore that directly.

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What did he really mean by that what's going on?

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And that's the premise is that Luther recognized God is at work in the

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world in two very distinct ways.

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He works in his right hand realm or the spiritual realm Luther

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prefer to call it to deliver the forgiveness of sins to overcome the

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brokenness brought on by man's rebellion and to bring men back in the right

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relationship and to restore his creation through the delivery of the

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Gospel churches job. So the church is here to deliver the gospel bring

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God's truth.

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Bring people back in a right relationship with God and make things right in the

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spiritual

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realm.

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God is also at work

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Luther argued in the temporal realm,

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sometimes you call it the left-hand realm. And there is at work preserving

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the world making sure the justice is being done making sure that the

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marginalized are being cared for in the poor being looked after and

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this is the work of the temporal realm and the government responsible

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for that.

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Now what's fascinating is Luther did not see a war going on between

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them as if they're at odds with each other in fact Luther

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envisioned, they would work together and cooperate and accomplish their

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purposes in mutuality.

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So the church is doing its thing to living the gospel and the state is

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doing its thing doing justice and caring for people and it all works

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well. And that's God's plan.

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Let's would stop there.

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And would you describe for us the government

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at Luther's time because it was a far cry from what we have in the

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United States today.

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So this kind of complementary working right was possible, but would

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you leave that out for is because in my experience, we we project

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American views about government on to the past. We do. And it wasn't

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like that. No, Luther lived in a world where you had emperors who were put into office by those who had

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authority and it was like a very select people he believed in the

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divine right of kings. That you ruled because God made you a ruler and

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that was God's intention

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and that's how he understood it.

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So you had a prince who is living as pretty much the old fiefdom kind

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of thing a prince in an area who is responsible for all the citizens

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living underneath him. And then there'll be other princes down the

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road and they would have cooperate and then have the emperor

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everything. But the average citizen basically, all he did was pay his

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taxes and was obedient and that was it. You didn't vote you didn't get

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to have any kind of role or task to do besides

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paying your taxes and being a good citizen and going to war when you

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need it too.

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If you know one of the nobles and things like that, you know

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helping out with the what needed to be done.

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It was a very different world.

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It's not a democracy.

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It's not a Democratic Republic.

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It's before all that were still living in the late Middle Ages. So in my

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retirement

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I'm working on the Epistle of 1st Peter.

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Hopefully producing a commentary in the Concordia Commentary series.

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And as I get into the government situation in the first century AD

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I've come to the conclusion

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there is no way we can understand what it was like because again, we

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project, you know, church-state. Right. Through our American

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citizenship lens and

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I really don't think we can imagine we can imagine but but. Yeah. I mean

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different. Absolutely different especially from the 1st century world. Because in the first century the church is marginalized does not have aseat at the table.

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They're not playing a role.

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They they're just kind of pushed to the side.

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No one cares about the Christians.

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No one cares. Mo one cares about Paul. No one cares what they're doing. Rome could

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care less.

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They just push them to the margins. And Luther's day very different.

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Now the church has a seat at the table and it's

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actually running the show pretty much. And the church is the kind of

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the force and princes are actually yielding to the church and

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yielding to popes.

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This is the whole point the battles kind of going on but in Luther's day it's very

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different.

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What's interesting is now here in the twenty-first century.

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We're starting to see more cells more and more in common with the

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early church where we're becoming now.

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The Christians are being pushed to the margins are not quite as well

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as used to be your kind of stupid in your idea is you're not that

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helpful you're holding on to all that is, you know, I got to get with

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the times. Your notions of

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women can't do certain things and your ideas about sexuality are just

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not with it.

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You got to get you got to get on with it.

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And so the church finds itself increasingly pushed to the side

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irrelevant. Not unlike

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how was Paul in his day or for Peter in his day. Peter

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in chapter 4 talks about if you are reproached.

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Yeah. And in studying that concept of reproach.

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We're getting a lot more of that right reproach for are not for being

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a Christian.

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Well, sometimes that too but for some of the specific tenets that we hold. And I think we are going to see more and more of that in my opinion. The

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situation that we're living in is going to head more dramatically in

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that direction regardless the outcomes of elections. I agree with you.

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Christian America, what we had in the 20th century is gone and did my

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opinion it not coming back. And I agree with you completely.

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I don't think it is coming back.

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I think that the the way that the enlightenment has really taken hold

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of the the academy. How we

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think.

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The average people in the world around us and Country have adopted

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these ideas that did that man makes his own decisions.

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We don't need someone else telling us what to do.

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We get to decide what we want to do.

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These are the driving forces in our world and the idea that were as a

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people accountable to God in some way.

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That's just not there anymore.

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So I don't think we're going to be able to retrieve that and that's

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that's sad frankly for a lot of people that they are morning that

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loss and there and some advice on how to get it back how to recapture it.

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And I think frankly that some of the enthusiasm to see for all

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candidates like President Trump others he's going to bring us back.

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And there are some things you might be able to do and bring back maybe

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but the idea of a Christian America that's not going to happen. Well

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you said earlier that in Luther's time the church and the state kind of

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worked hand-in-hand. Right. Because they're both coming for Christian

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orientation.

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Now, it appears to me and you're more verse in this and I am that we

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have strains of Christianity today, especially in Protestantism and

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Evangelicalism that imagine that American government and the church

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are to work hand-in-hand pursuing the same goals. Right.

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This is one of the distinctive teachings of Luther and this is why the

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Lutheran voice needs to be heard.

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We are not driving for a Christian America frankly and most of

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evangelicalism is that they could have their way we would have a

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Christian Nation.

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We would have a nation founded on Godly principles and teaching God's

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truth in and operating in ways that are consistent with all the

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scripture Revelation. And I would save Luther was much more realistic

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about this and he said no what's enough in the government is the

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government is just and upholding

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what's right. And what's right, of course is God's law.

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So God's not being pushed out.

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He's not a irrelevant here.

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It's God's laws God's truth that matters, but the idea that we're

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going to have Christian

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leaders. They don't need to be Christian they just need to be just. So it very different. So Lutherans are much more

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I would say practical realistic and modest about what we're trying to

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accomplish.

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We're not trying to build a Christian America.

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Our goal is simply a more just America. So when it comes to voting.

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Am I trying to vote for the guy who's going to be the best Christian

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candidate, not necessarily.

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I want to go for the one who's going to most nearly rule according to

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God's justice

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and God's rules. Who's going to be upholding God's way that the world

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should operate. Who's going to be functioning in the way that honors God

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and God's will for the world's functioning.

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Someone said that the church is not supposed to look to the

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government to achieve the churches purposes and the government should

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not look to the church to achieve the government's purpose the

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two are are separated.

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It seems to me that the Achilles heel in this attitude of trying to

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make a Christian America.

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Is that it depends upon the law you can pass a law. Lets okay.

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We're pro-choice were anti-abortion.

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Correct.

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If you pass a law to that affect or Constitutional Amendment that

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you've legislated something and I'm not opposed to that happening, but

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you have to have the hearts.

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You cannot legislate morality from the government.

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Well, that's an old debate.

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You know, I can you legislate morality or not.

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I'm a little bit more optimistic that you can actually legislate

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behavior.

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You can't change somebody's heart Luther's clear on that. But you can

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absolutely the coerce behavior

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based on rules speed limits do it all the time.

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And you know, we we even though I don't want to drive the speed limit

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I do because my behaviors coerced because of the threat. So you can

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teach coerce some morality and but you're right that the heart is

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different. So the church is more interested in the same.

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We want people to know who they are in Christ.

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We don't people understand what God is doing so the church has have

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much

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higher ambition of what we want for people. The government's job is

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basically keep the wheels from falling off keep it from killing each

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other key people from hurting each other.

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That's what the government's job is so it's supposed to keep people

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from succumbing to their worst desires and keep anarchy from

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happening.

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That's the government's job.

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So if the Church is functioning as it should as God intends to

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church to function teaching the gospel teaching proper engagement with

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public Society.

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Then given the number of Christians we do have in the world

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today in our country today.

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The country will be blessed.

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Absolutely.

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And if the church is focusing on what it should do, they're going to

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create good citizens they are going to create people who give a rip who care who

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invest and asked me to get for the country and that's why smart

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government leaders are going to want to encourage the church cuz

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they realize that's good for our country and they're not going to want

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to hurt it.

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And by the same token the church then when it's functioning.

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well, it's going to be helping to shape how the government functions so

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there's that symbiosis.

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There is that cooperative spirit there.

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It's not that we want the government to tell the church how to be the

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church and we're not going to tell government how to be the government but we do

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hold each other accountable. So in Luther's day and you had the

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church kind of dropping the ball and not preaching the gospel

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well, what did Luther do he appealed to the prince is to come in and help

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and that still bothers people.

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How could he do that? It made senseto him

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because they work together.

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And if the prince is a Christian man, and he sees the church dropping

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the ball. Hey, get your act together church and

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come on in. So in our day when we look around we say, you know, what is not

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functioning right,

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it's not doing what it should do. It is not caring for the marginalized.

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It's not looking out for people.

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It's it's creating laws, which you're not right.

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What are we going to do about that?

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And the church says the government knock it off you need to do this. And

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we're not trying to tell him to be Christian we're just telling them

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be just stop doing what's wrong. And kind of church do that?

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I would argue the Church must do that.

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And that's the surprise

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most people don't know about Luther. They have this notion that somehow

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Luther embraced the separation of church and state and they think yeah

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Luther's just like Jefferson wall of separation between church and state,

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and not in the least.

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There's there's absolutely all overlapping and

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cooperation and correspondence between them.

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They're not at odds with each other.

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So this idea of keeping them separate.

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That's an American idea.

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That's a Jefferson idea.

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It's not Luther's idea.

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I have heard of theologians who say that thinking in terms of Law and

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Gospel the church's job is mainly to apply the law to the government.

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You shouldn't do this.

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That's right.

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You shouldn't do that.

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That's right.

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And then thinking in Law and Gospel terms it's not Gospel that that we look

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to the government for but we deliver you smiling. No, that's absolutely right.

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But but but our our our ministry if you want to call that to

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government at any level is no you shouldn't be doing this. Exactly. So in other words I don't

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want a president who's going to be preaching about Jesus.

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That's not that's not his call

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that's not what he's there for. If he is a Christian man

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it's not his job to be doing that from his bully pulpit. What he should

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be doing the saying

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this is what's just and here's why it's just we're going to do this.

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That's what he should be doing.

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And when the church sees the world not doing that the

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church does

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need to speak to this.

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So that means the church should be political and I do argue for this.

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I think the church should be far more political than we have been.

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Instead of saying whoa, whoa that's politics

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that's not our business.

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We're just here to talk about Jesus.

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Well, if Jesus touches on all of my life.

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Politics is part of my life.

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Does God have something to say about my political views?

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Absolutely he does. Does God have something to say about how I vote? Absolutely he does. Let me ask you this question, your students must take a lot of notes. They do that they're supposed to I see them busy. This is a stimulating discussion. We're going to take a short break.

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And when we come back, I want to follow up on the church being political.

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And I also want to have Dr.

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Biermann come out and tell us if Jesus was a Republican or a Democrat.

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Stay with us.

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Concordia Seminary St.

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00:24:07.800 --> 00:24:12.500
Louis provides continuing education resources for pastors and lay

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00:24:12.500 --> 00:24:17.600
people to discover all the Concordia Seminary has for you visit us on

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00:24:17.600 --> 00:24:20.100
the web at CSL.

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EDU.

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Welcome back to Word and Work an Intersection.

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I'm Dale Meyer. Today our guest is Dr.

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Joel Biermann.

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Dr.

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Biermann is a professor of Systematic Theology here at Concordia

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Seminary and one of his areas of interest is Christian ethics,

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especially as they intersect with the world. His book

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"Wholly Citizens" explores this topic in great detail.

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So before we took a break Joel we teed up, this question Jesus Democrat or

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Republican?

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Why Jesus is obviously quite political this and maybe it's biggest

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surprise me.

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Hey he doesn't care. No, no he was exceedingly political. A guy named John Howard Yoder wrote a book called "The Politics of Jesus" which kind of blew peoples

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minds back in the 60s.

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And what Yoder's argument

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is that the very way that Jesus functions.

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The way

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he taught us to live and the way

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he taught his disciples to think was actually a challenge to the way

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the world is operating. And there's a political avenue to that and

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there's truth a truth to that. So in other words when Christians start living like Christians and

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00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:28.000
acting like Christians.

489
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:31.700
It's exceedingly political because it impacts how we treat each other.

490
00:25:31.700 --> 00:25:35.500
How we live in communities. How we spend our money. How we think about

491
00:25:35.500 --> 00:25:38.000
ruling. How we think about government all that kind of stuff gets pulled in.

492
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:43.500
You mean political in the good sense of the term. Exactly. Yes, political as in the

493
00:25:43.500 --> 00:25:47.400
polis the Greek word which means the city-state so this is how we live

494
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:51.400
our lives together that in that sense political. So does Jesus care about

495
00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:52.100
republicans and democrats?

496
00:25:52.100 --> 00:25:55.300
Yeah, he cares about what's going on with the agenda of the world

497
00:25:55.300 --> 00:25:55.400
today.

498
00:25:55.700 --> 00:25:59.100
It does matter how the people vote. It does matter

499
00:25:59.100 --> 00:26:00.100
what kind of legislation get passed.

500
00:26:00.100 --> 00:26:03.300
It does matter because he can either be upholding his will or

501
00:26:03.300 --> 00:26:06.900
thwarting his will so it does matter so yeah. And I think it's

502
00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:11.700
exceedingly difficult to align the Christian view with anyone political party

503
00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:14.800
that's part of the mistakes people make. You have people on the

504
00:26:14.800 --> 00:26:15.600
Christian left that

505
00:26:15.600 --> 00:26:17.200
will say Democrats

506
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:21.100
that's our party. And they try to embrace that because they like

507
00:26:21.100 --> 00:26:24.500
some of the things like caring for the poor and having immigration

508
00:26:24.500 --> 00:26:27.700
policy that is kind and generous but then you have problems like what about

509
00:26:27.700 --> 00:26:28.500
abortion on demand?

510
00:26:28.500 --> 00:26:31.700
What about killing the children in utero, not cool.

511
00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:35.100
But then you have people in the far-right Republicans that's our party cuz

512
00:26:35.100 --> 00:26:37.800
they're a good on pro-life and they're good on, you know, preserving

513
00:26:37.800 --> 00:26:41.300
our rights, which another whole topic we can talk about rights if we

514
00:26:41.300 --> 00:26:45.500
have time, and there is no but what about some of the policies like

515
00:26:45.500 --> 00:26:50.600
immigration. Is our strong borders is that really a Christian idea? Is

516
00:26:50.600 --> 00:26:53.300
that idea that we should be keeping people out and how should we be

517
00:26:53.300 --> 00:26:55.700
treating people who are different than us? And so we can

518
00:26:55.700 --> 00:26:57.200
challenge a lot of things as Christians.

519
00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:00.200
So Christians if we're going to be functioning well are going to be

520
00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:03.500
not fitting in well with a lot of things going on in the world.

521
00:27:03.500 --> 00:27:07.600
And so we're quite political without owning any one particular party.

522
00:27:07.600 --> 00:27:09.700
Some months ago Representative

523
00:27:09.700 --> 00:27:13.700
John Lewis died and one of the things that struck me and this is true

524
00:27:13.700 --> 00:27:17.800
of other civil rights leaders is that there was a religious impetus.

525
00:27:17.800 --> 00:27:23.500
Oh absolutely. To what they did not see it be it becomes a political not

526
00:27:23.500 --> 00:27:24.100
partisan.

527
00:27:24.100 --> 00:27:28.100
But but in those I think this is an example of what you're saying.

528
00:27:28.100 --> 00:27:32.300
There's a religious impetus to the Civil Rights Movement.

529
00:27:32.300 --> 00:27:36.700
Oh absolutely and the idea is that this is not a good thing.

530
00:27:36.700 --> 00:27:39.800
It's not just that some people are being treated differently.

531
00:27:39.800 --> 00:27:42.600
It's not just that these people to have the same opportunities there

532
00:27:42.600 --> 00:27:47.000
right and there is a absolutely a Christian motivation behind it and a

533
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:50.100
drive. One of the one of the things that sticks in my mind.

534
00:27:52.700 --> 00:27:58.300
Years ago congressman John Shimkus who's a member of our church was

535
00:27:58.300 --> 00:28:03.200
our commencement speaker and he knows the two kingdoms but one of the

536
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:08.400
things I remember him appealing to our graduates was you tell us how

537
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:09.600
this applies? Right.

538
00:28:09.600 --> 00:28:10.100
In other words

539
00:28:10.100 --> 00:28:17.700
there are principles that shape our citizenship that one of the

540
00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:20.700
criticisms of the two kingdoms I believe has been

541
00:28:20.700 --> 00:28:24.100
out there and it's fine in theory.

542
00:28:24.100 --> 00:28:30.600
But how does that shape my in his case conduct as a Congressman? How

543
00:28:30.600 --> 00:28:37.800
does its shape when I go into the voting booth shortly? Right and that's exactly  the point this theory out

544
00:28:37.800 --> 00:28:40.900
there, but it actually applies. And one of the mistakes that has been

545
00:28:40.900 --> 00:28:44.600
made by Lutheran's in the past is this idea that the two kingdoms and

546
00:28:44.600 --> 00:28:47.200
kind of pushing them apart and you let him go to church do its thing

547
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:50.300
in the state do its thing is we need to bifurcating these things

548
00:28:50.300 --> 00:28:52.400
and that is had some disastrous results.

549
00:28:52.600 --> 00:28:56.800
In Germany in the 1930s when Hitler was coming to power part of what

550
00:28:56.800 --> 00:29:00.100
was able to aid him was this idea that okay

551
00:29:00.100 --> 00:29:03.400
I'm a Christian and I follow the church's teaching and the church

552
00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:04.400
tells me to obey my leader.

553
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:05.600
So that's what I'm going to do. So I'm just

554
00:29:05.600 --> 00:29:07.700
going to obey my leader and I don't have to think about things

555
00:29:07.700 --> 00:29:11.100
too much. So they had just neat bifurcation which led to the quietism

556
00:29:11.100 --> 00:29:14.500
of people just watching junk happen and horrible things happened.

557
00:29:14.500 --> 00:29:19.100
Because while there's elected leader and Hitler was elected leader,

558
00:29:19.100 --> 00:29:23.100
that was the reality. But the church should have been saying wait this

559
00:29:23.100 --> 00:29:26.000
is not right and there were voices in the church saying wait, this is

560
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.200
not right and the very strong voices Niemöller, Bonhoeffer and Sasse and others

561
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:31.400
say not right.

562
00:29:31.400 --> 00:29:35.500
And so that was a good thing but by and large the church basically

563
00:29:35.500 --> 00:29:39.800
dropped the ball because they were doing that's just church stuff this

564
00:29:39.800 --> 00:29:40.600
state stuff

565
00:29:40.600 --> 00:29:43.000
hat's none of our business. That can't happen.

566
00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:47.600
The state has to be called to task for what's not in line with God's

567
00:29:47.600 --> 00:29:48.100
purposes.

568
00:29:48.100 --> 00:29:51.300
And so when we take the two kingdoms right understood it becomes a

569
00:29:51.300 --> 00:29:51.900
principle of

570
00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:53.800
God is at work in the world.

571
00:29:53.800 --> 00:29:57.200
He's at work through government and Christians and the church needs to

572
00:29:57.200 --> 00:29:58.100
help the government

573
00:29:58.100 --> 00:30:02.700
stay accountable and stay truthful. So when we tell people in God

574
00:30:02.700 --> 00:30:05.900
we trust and one isn't a God that's a reminder that you are

575
00:30:05.900 --> 00:30:09.700
accountable to God for what you do and God's going to judge you

576
00:30:09.700 --> 00:30:10.200
someday.

577
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:12.300
Are you doing things the way he wants you to do them?

578
00:30:12.300 --> 00:30:14.600
And we need to remind people of that they might dismiss it.

579
00:30:14.600 --> 00:30:15.600
They might try to push it away.

580
00:30:15.600 --> 00:30:19.100
But that's part of what we do. There is substantiation for that United

581
00:30:19.100 --> 00:30:24.300
States Constitution. When the Constitution was passed in 1787, if my

582
00:30:24.300 --> 00:30:28.400
memory is right, and it was attacked as a godless Constitution because

583
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:31.500
there were state constitutions that had all kinds of religious

584
00:30:31.500 --> 00:30:34.400
especially Protestant talking Jesus...

585
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:37.800
All over Massachusetts, for example, was just one example.

586
00:30:39.300 --> 00:30:42.800
So that they criticize the new United States Constitution as being

587
00:30:42.800 --> 00:30:47.000
godless, but it's interesting that in the first amendment in the Bill

588
00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:52.700
of Rights was passed very quickly. That acknowledges two sovereigns the

589
00:30:52.700 --> 00:30:56.500
extra for the freedom of religion in the exercise clause.

590
00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:02.200
Acknowledges that yes government is a sovereign but there's also the

591
00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:07.300
conscience duty toward God or however citizen perceives that higher

592
00:31:07.300 --> 00:31:07.600
power.

593
00:31:07.600 --> 00:31:13.100
So this is the separation of church and state is not as ironclad as

594
00:31:13.100 --> 00:31:17.100
as some make it out to be in the United States. We're not a theocracy

595
00:31:17.100 --> 00:31:21.900
I got that. Right. But it is not a total separation either. That's right.

596
00:31:21.900 --> 00:31:25.600
And so church is definitely not a democracy.

597
00:31:25.600 --> 00:31:27.700
It's a Christocracy.

598
00:31:27.700 --> 00:31:32.000
So Christ is Lord to Christ is the one who calls the shots and we

599
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.500
would say that when the world is working the way it should it should

600
00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:35.800
be normal itself

601
00:31:35.800 --> 00:31:36.700
according to God's law.

602
00:31:36.700 --> 00:31:40.700
So one of the better insights that comes from Luther is in the realm

603
00:31:40.700 --> 00:31:42.200
of the temporal world.

604
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:46.500
The government our life together it's God's law that runs the show there

605
00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:47.700
and not the Gospel.

606
00:31:47.700 --> 00:31:48.400
So in other words

607
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:51.700
I don't dictate how people should lives according to the Gospel it's

608
00:31:51.700 --> 00:31:55.200
God's law which is available to all people for the natural law on

609
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:56.800
through general revelation.

610
00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:00.500
So that law helps to guide how we function and how we live and

611
00:32:00.500 --> 00:32:03.400
that's useful because then the church can say I'm not trying to make

612
00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:04.200
you a Christian.

613
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:07.300
I'm not trying to tell you you have to yield to my sovereign God.

614
00:32:07.300 --> 00:32:11.200
I'm just telling you to be obedient to the laws of nature that are

615
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:14.600
just wired into us don't kill people, don't treat people an unfair

616
00:32:14.600 --> 00:32:15.000
ways.

617
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:18.500
These are just basic rules and we know as Christians they come from

618
00:32:18.500 --> 00:32:22.100
God and we would assert that. And we would say that God is my only

619
00:32:22.100 --> 00:32:26.500
Sovereign but I also want the government who is also has the sword and

620
00:32:26.500 --> 00:32:27.500
holds people accountable.

621
00:32:27.500 --> 00:32:29.900
I want them to be accountable to God's truth.

622
00:32:29.900 --> 00:32:32.600
And that's one of the biggest task of the church is not trying to make

623
00:32:32.600 --> 00:32:37.200
everybody Christian but try to make everybody moral and upright for the sake

624
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:40.200
of the world for the sake of the good function. So if I'm a pastor

625
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:44.700
preaching to my congregation teaching a Bible class specially in these

626
00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:48.200
days with the election coming up. What are some of those principles

627
00:32:48.200 --> 00:32:52.600
that I would say when you go to the voting booth remember this. Can you list some of them? The first thing is if your talking to Christian people about

628
00:32:57.300 --> 00:33:01.700
what is my responsibility to the world? Your political life is just

629
00:33:01.700 --> 00:33:02.700
another part of your vocation.

630
00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:07.500
I do it for the sake of the other. Vocations are always done not to be

631
00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:12.300
self-serving but other serving. I serve my neighbor. I serve my children

632
00:33:12.300 --> 00:33:14.900
my spouse, my other family members,

633
00:33:14.900 --> 00:33:17.400
my neighbor's it's for them.

634
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:20.700
So when we do our vocation as Christians what God has given us to do

635
00:33:20.700 --> 00:33:24.700
is for the sake of the other it's not to advance myself and not to serve

636
00:33:24.700 --> 00:33:24.900
myself.

637
00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:28.900
So the first rule then when your vote is don't ask yourself which

638
00:33:28.900 --> 00:33:30.500
politician is can make my life better.

639
00:33:30.500 --> 00:33:31.700
That's not relevant.

640
00:33:31.700 --> 00:33:34.600
And it's not the question which politicians going to give me more

641
00:33:34.600 --> 00:33:38.600
money or you know, how secure my job or secure my my livelihood.

642
00:33:38.600 --> 00:33:42.300
That's not what's important. What's important is which candidate which

643
00:33:42.300 --> 00:33:47.900
amendments, which propositions that were voting for which ones are

644
00:33:47.900 --> 00:33:52.800
going to more nearly bring justice for the people around me. Who's

645
00:33:52.800 --> 00:33:55.800
going to serve them which candidates are going to bring about God's

646
00:33:55.800 --> 00:33:57.300
will for how the world should work.

647
00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:00.700
Not because of its more Christian. So I can look at a candidate

648
00:34:00.700 --> 00:34:05.100
and he could be actually an avowed agnostic but yet for whatever

649
00:34:05.100 --> 00:34:06.300
reason he's quite moral

650
00:34:06.300 --> 00:34:09.900
and quite committed to the God's precepts about morality.

651
00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:11.100
He's a good candidate.

652
00:34:11.100 --> 00:34:14.600
I could have a guy who's an avowed Christian who's got all kinds of

653
00:34:14.600 --> 00:34:18.000
funny ideas about you know, what's fair and stuff and actually

654
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:23.100
denigrating God's law he would be a bad candidate.  So let me ask a specific example

655
00:34:23.100 --> 00:34:25.300
along that line.

656
00:34:26.300 --> 00:34:27.000
I'm pro-life.

657
00:34:28.300 --> 00:34:34.200
And we have a pro-life candidate but I don't like his other positions. Right.

658
00:34:34.200 --> 00:34:41.000
And I'm not I'm not making a comment about the upcoming election okay.

659
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:46.600
Can I vote for a candidate whose positions I liked better, but he is

660
00:34:46.600 --> 00:34:52.600
pro-abortion? Well then that's were you start sorting things out and you start and you go from the first rule, which is

661
00:34:52.600 --> 00:34:54.300
what how do I vote to serve

662
00:34:54.300 --> 00:34:54.700
my neighbor.

663
00:34:54.700 --> 00:34:59.800
Then the next kind of lever down is:  What are the what are the things that are most pressing?

664
00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:03.600
Where's the where is the Injustice the greatest? And if we had and I

665
00:35:03.600 --> 00:35:07.700
said that I said this in my book people don't like the litmus test

666
00:35:07.700 --> 00:35:10.100
voting and Christians push back, you know, I don't want to be a

667
00:35:10.100 --> 00:35:10.600
single issue voter.

668
00:35:10.600 --> 00:35:11.700
It's not just abortion.

669
00:35:11.700 --> 00:35:14.100
There's lots of things that matter agree that there are lots of things

670
00:35:14.100 --> 00:35:15.600
that matter but good grief.

671
00:35:15.600 --> 00:35:22.900
What is abortion? You're taking a child in utero and killing it. Talk about you know marginalized

672
00:35:22.900 --> 00:35:27.200
disenfranchised the helpless that's a huge issue and whether we like it or

673
00:35:27.200 --> 00:35:28.200
not whether the world is it

674
00:35:28.300 --> 00:35:29.100
comfortable with it.

675
00:35:29.100 --> 00:35:30.500
It's still a huge issue.

676
00:35:30.500 --> 00:35:31.500
It's it's a wrong.

677
00:35:31.500 --> 00:35:34.800
And yes, I care about caring for the wetlands.

678
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:37.100
And yes, I care about immigration policy.

679
00:35:37.100 --> 00:35:39.800
And yes, I care about the poor and the policies

680
00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:42.700
that serve them. But those things tend to be issues where there's all

681
00:35:42.700 --> 00:35:44.500
kinds of debate. Minimum wage law

682
00:35:44.500 --> 00:35:48.300
good or bad for the culture while you can argue that both ways and

683
00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:51.800
good Christian people on both sides are arguing that. But killing

684
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:52.900
babies good or bad.

685
00:35:52.900 --> 00:35:55.400
I mean there's there's nothing to argue about here.

686
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:59.800
This is clear-cut and so as it might be to some people

687
00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:03.300
I would argue that there is in a sense a single issue that really does

688
00:36:03.300 --> 00:36:06.100
rise to the top and abortion is a big big issue.

689
00:36:06.100 --> 00:36:14.500
Are there other single issues that rise? I would say our how understanding of sexuality the family and what is

690
00:36:14.500 --> 00:36:18.000
the family together. When you study scripture it becomes very clear

691
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:22.100
that one man one woman the marriage that is the foundation of culture.

692
00:36:22.100 --> 00:36:25.300
And then there's Genesis 2, I mean a man leave his father and mother

693
00:36:25.300 --> 00:36:25.900
be bound to his wife.

694
00:36:25.900 --> 00:36:28.200
That's the foundational relationship.

695
00:36:28.200 --> 00:36:30.500
Everything grows out of that. Luther's very clear on this.

696
00:36:30.500 --> 00:36:35.300
So when the world is really threatening the nuclear family the

697
00:36:35.300 --> 00:36:37.400
husband-and-wife relationship and you know and

698
00:36:37.400 --> 00:36:39.600
redefining all the stuff that matters a lot.

699
00:36:39.600 --> 00:36:42.800
That's a big deal because not just because we don't like it.

700
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:46.300
It makes us uncomfortable. It matters because it's it's chopping away

701
00:36:46.300 --> 00:36:49.400
at the very foundations of culture and society. Now that in my opinion

702
00:36:49.400 --> 00:36:52.500
that horse is already out of the barn. So we go back to the

703
00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:56.500
importance of the church and its Ministry. Right. And especially its

704
00:36:56.500 --> 00:37:00.700
teaching in this case of proper sexuality and family life. And then

705
00:37:00.700 --> 00:37:06.300
we become as the church a place that comes a witness of what God's

706
00:37:06.300 --> 00:37:10.600
truth would look like. And this is Systematic Theology dialoguing  with what's going on in the world

707
00:37:10.600 --> 00:37:16.800
today. Yes, it is. Stimulating. You have in this discussion brought up justice a the number of

708
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:21.900
times. And I'd like you to comment on this. In in our tradition of

709
00:37:21.900 --> 00:37:26.700
Lutheranism, Lutheran Church, Missouri, Synod, we think of justice or

710
00:37:26.700 --> 00:37:28.200
righteousness as what

711
00:37:28.200 --> 00:37:30.400
God does for us in Christ. Right.

712
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:35.600
We're sinners and he imputes his justice to us through faith and the

713
00:37:35.600 --> 00:37:41.000
grace of God. But there's the other communal aspect of justice

714
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:43.500
which is what you're talkin about when we're in the tackling two

715
00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:44.000
kingdoms.

716
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:47.300
Could you elaborate on that distinction because

717
00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:52.700
I think if I know Missouri Synod people who say that justice

718
00:37:52.700 --> 00:37:56.300
that's different, you know, where were content because I'm declared

719
00:37:56.300 --> 00:38:01.900
righteous in the sight of God through faith. That where the two kinds of righteousness becomes such a powerful tool.

720
00:38:01.900 --> 00:38:02.500
Yes,

721
00:38:02.500 --> 00:38:06.500
I have righteousness before God by his declaration in Christ

722
00:38:06.500 --> 00:38:07.100
I'm forgiven,

723
00:38:07.100 --> 00:38:11.100
I'm righteous. He has said it it's it's so and that's his wonderful

724
00:38:11.100 --> 00:38:14.600
gift to me and that's true in my relationship before God. Passive

725
00:38:14.600 --> 00:38:15.400
righteousness. Right.

726
00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:19.700
I just simply receive it. Now in my in my relationship with my neighbor's,

727
00:38:19.700 --> 00:38:23.900
my family member, my friends, my co-workers, my students whatever I

728
00:38:23.900 --> 00:38:27.100
have responsibilities there. And the righteousness there something that

729
00:38:27.100 --> 00:38:28.600
I actively need to do.

730
00:38:28.600 --> 00:38:31.600
I need to be kind of the person God created me to be for the sake of

731
00:38:31.600 --> 00:38:36.000
my neighbor that's active righteousness. Righteousness being dikaiosune

732
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.200
righteous being rightly related

733
00:38:38.200 --> 00:38:42.000
and that's where the justice comes in. Aristotle was kind of right and

734
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.900
justice is given to each person his due.

735
00:38:43.900 --> 00:38:44.800
So

736
00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:46.100
what do I owe another person?

737
00:38:46.100 --> 00:38:48.400
That's Justice. And for somebody who's being

738
00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:51.000
hurt by somebody else justice means

739
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:51.800
I intervene for them.

740
00:38:51.800 --> 00:38:55.000
It was somebody who's getting away with something some kind of a crime

741
00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:55.500
justice means

742
00:38:55.500 --> 00:38:56.500
stop that that's wrong.

743
00:38:56.500 --> 00:39:02.000
And so Justice is not just having justification in Christ,

744
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:06.400
Augsburg Confession 4. Justice in the context of the world is doing what God

745
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:10.600
would have us do for the sake of the neighbor. And the church teaches

746
00:39:10.600 --> 00:39:14.800
that helps you understand that. One of your books is a case for

747
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:15.500
character. Right.

748
00:39:15.500 --> 00:39:21.300
And you talk in that book about how the confessors Luther and others

749
00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:23.300
urged good works.

750
00:39:23.300 --> 00:39:23.800
Absolutely.

751
00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:27.000
Yeah, because that's what were created to do.

752
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:31.200
And when you start thinking about the whole salvation narrative God

753
00:39:31.200 --> 00:39:34.500
doesn't save me so I can run away from the world and go up to Heaven

754
00:39:34.500 --> 00:39:34.800
someday.

755
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:38.900
God Saves me to be what he created me to be which is a creature living

756
00:39:38.900 --> 00:39:41.100
in the world serving the creation around me.

757
00:39:41.100 --> 00:39:44.600
That's my reason for being that's where vocation comes in.

758
00:39:44.600 --> 00:39:46.200
So that's the whole intention.

759
00:39:46.200 --> 00:39:47.400
I'm right with God.

760
00:39:48.300 --> 00:39:49.200
Cool, Awesome.

761
00:39:49.200 --> 00:39:49.800
I have eternal life.

762
00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:54.400
Now what get out and serve and take care of your neighbor and so we

763
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:55.100
do that in the voting booth.

764
00:39:55.100 --> 00:39:56.300
We do that in our families.

765
00:39:56.300 --> 00:39:57.300
We do that all kinds of places.

766
00:39:57.300 --> 00:40:02.400
Can you do that by running for office? Absolutely. Absolutely yes, and the

767
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:07.000
church should be encouraging people to be politically involved. I have

768
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:10.500
often said that Lutherans should be some of the most politically active

769
00:40:10.500 --> 00:40:14.700
people in the world because we know where we stand before God we know

770
00:40:14.700 --> 00:40:17.500
our responsibility in the world and we know we're doing what we can to

771
00:40:17.500 --> 00:40:22.000
make the world what guy would have it to be. So that activity is more than bringing a hot

772
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:25.300
dish to the church potluck or serving as a church officer.

773
00:40:25.300 --> 00:40:29.600
It is also means getting out into the community as a Christian.

774
00:40:29.600 --> 00:40:30.200
Absolutely.

775
00:40:30.200 --> 00:40:31.600
Yes in all kinds of ways.

776
00:40:31.600 --> 00:40:33.700
They might be just being part of a mother's group.

777
00:40:33.700 --> 00:40:36.800
It might be part of the neighborhood alliance might be hanging out

778
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:37.400
with the neighbors.

779
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:41.400
It might be running for office whether that means a school board or

780
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:42.200
local office.

781
00:40:42.200 --> 00:40:47.200
Christians need to be there now so that we can inject Jesus but so we can

782
00:40:47.200 --> 00:40:48.300
inject God's truth

783
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:51.600
and hold people accountable to what God would have things done. And then we should

784
00:40:51.600 --> 00:40:54.300
be very involved and it's not something we can make it Christian

785
00:40:54.300 --> 00:40:59.800
America or save America is so that we can advance God's purposes and

786
00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:02.700
serve our neighbor through theses things. And it's not easy and it's not

787
00:41:02.700 --> 00:41:04.200
fun and it it's often difficult.

788
00:41:04.200 --> 00:41:08.900
And as you brought up Congressman Shimkus, it's it's messy being in

789
00:41:08.900 --> 00:41:09.800
the left-hand realm.

790
00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:13.090
It's really messy out there in the temporal world are Christians are

791
00:41:13.090 --> 00:41:16.300
willing to get messy for the sake of God's justice. Well the left-hand

792
00:41:16.300 --> 00:41:20.900
realm is also the second table of the law, commandments 4 thru 10. Yes. Which which are

793
00:41:20.900 --> 00:41:25.700
dedicated to how we relate to other people now and I know Martin

794
00:41:25.700 --> 00:41:31.400
Chemnitz systematics guy, you know better than I do so that when you

795
00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:36.100
get out there into that world, that's an incentive to get back into

796
00:41:36.100 --> 00:41:40.000
the first table of the law and then learn more about God and his way.

797
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:47.300
Right, right. The right hand kingdom. Right Because when we strive to do things in the world and we're always going to fall short and we're

798
00:41:47.300 --> 00:41:48.000
going to end up making a mess of things.

799
00:41:48.300 --> 00:41:51.800
That's where the path of righteousness comes back in God's

800
00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:52.100
forgiveness.

801
00:41:52.100 --> 00:41:56.800
I would even contend that even the first 3 commandments of the first

802
00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:59.000
table the law also apply in the world.

803
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:02.400
I would say that this is simply God's will for how we are to function

804
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:06.600
in the world. So creatures when they're rightly related to their world

805
00:42:06.600 --> 00:42:10.900
will be honoring God receiving his gifts and worshipping him.

806
00:42:10.900 --> 00:42:11.500
That's what they do.

807
00:42:11.500 --> 00:42:13.800
That's why man is homo religioso.

808
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:17.600
He is man the religious because they man just knows I should be

809
00:42:17.600 --> 00:42:19.000
worshiping whoever put me here.

810
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:22.400
And so even the first table of the law, I think those apply to the

811
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:25.600
world at large it's not that we're going to force you to acknowledge

812
00:42:25.600 --> 00:42:26.300
God or

813
00:42:26.300 --> 00:42:29.600
you know, or make a law that says you have to go to church. But we

814
00:42:29.600 --> 00:42:34.000
would say that part of basic morality is recognizing your role as a

815
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:37.100
creature and your relationship to God that's part of being basically

816
00:42:37.100 --> 00:42:38.400
moral. And in that sense

817
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:42.300
I think it's fair to say that an atheist is always give me a problem

818
00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:46.700
with getting their morality straight. Earlier you

819
00:42:47.500 --> 00:42:55.600
mentioned rights. Yeah. And you had that same smile your dimple showed.

820
00:42:55.600 --> 00:43:00.300
Let's let's wrap up by exploring. Yeah. Rights?

821
00:43:00.300 --> 00:43:05.100
We got a few minutes left. You know America is all about our rights the Bill of Rights you mentioned that

822
00:43:05.100 --> 00:43:08.500
earlier first 10 amendments Bill of Rights. I got my right to this.

823
00:43:08.500 --> 00:43:09.600
I got a right to worship God.

824
00:43:09.600 --> 00:43:11.600
I got a right to have ownership.

825
00:43:11.600 --> 00:43:12.900
I've got a right to carry my firearm.

826
00:43:12.900 --> 00:43:16.900
I got a rights, rights, rights, rights. And it struck me years ago, and I

827
00:43:16.900 --> 00:43:19.800
was just thinking about this where in the Bible do you have rights to

828
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:20.000
talk?

829
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:22.000
And it's not there.

830
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:26.800
It's just not there are you can infer some things don't steal that, well

831
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:29.100
means I have a right to keep it as mine but it doesn't say that.

832
00:43:29.100 --> 00:43:30.700
It doesn't say your stuff is yours.

833
00:43:30.700 --> 00:43:31.700
You have a right to it.

834
00:43:31.700 --> 00:43:34.900
It just says don't take what's not yours and that's a little different.

835
00:43:34.900 --> 00:43:37.200
So I've actually made the argument.

836
00:43:37.200 --> 00:43:39.200
I've done this in in a paper to that

837
00:43:39.200 --> 00:43:41.400
I would say that Christians have no rights.

838
00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:42.900
We don't stand on our rights.

839
00:43:42.900 --> 00:43:43.800
We recognize it

840
00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:47.000
everything we have is a gift from God. As a creature

841
00:43:47.500 --> 00:43:50.300
I recognize that I'm completely dependent upon God.

842
00:43:50.300 --> 00:43:51.000
I'm contingent.

843
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:53.700
I'm not here because I have a right I'm not born because I have a

844
00:43:53.700 --> 00:43:56.900
right I don't live because I have it right. I live only by the mercy of

845
00:43:56.900 --> 00:44:00.600
God and by the grace of God. So that I have a home and a family and I

846
00:44:00.600 --> 00:44:01.400
have so many good things.

847
00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:02.700
These are not my rights.

848
00:44:02.700 --> 00:44:04.200
I don't have a right to life.

849
00:44:04.200 --> 00:44:07.000
Okay, let me let me draw you out on that.

850
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:11.100
Okay, and I'm not disagreeing but what you just described is in The

851
00:44:11.100 --> 00:44:17.100
right hand kingdom. Our faith. The way we understand our relationship, sure. In the left-hand kingdom

852
00:44:17.100 --> 00:44:20.700
I'm struck by the by the Declaration of Independence that says

853
00:44:20.700 --> 00:44:24.700
the Creator endowed us with certain inalienable rights. Yeah. And then

854
00:44:24.700 --> 00:44:28.000
there is a list life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Happiness in

855
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:31.100
the 18th century was something different we understand it today, but

856
00:44:31.100 --> 00:44:38.200
that comes from the Creator. Yeah. Amendment 9 talks more about any of the

857
00:44:38.200 --> 00:44:39.700
rights.

858
00:44:41.300 --> 00:44:42.500
Today in America,

859
00:44:42.500 --> 00:44:47.800
my sense is we don't say these rights come from the Creator, the left hand

860
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:49.300
side, left hand Kingdom.

861
00:44:49.300 --> 00:44:53.500
We're saying the government gives this to us. Right or we have them

862
00:44:53.500 --> 00:44:56.700
somehow inherently in us, the human dignity that we just because

863
00:44:56.700 --> 00:45:01.400
we're human we have these immediate inherent rights. And my contention

864
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:04.800
is that's not the a scriptural way of thinking. You know, when an Adam is

865
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:07.800
held the task he doesn't say wait a minute God I have a right to food.

866
00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:09.700
I have a right to a wife.

867
00:45:09.700 --> 00:45:17.600
That's just absurd, that's just silly talk. Now, you're right as a citizen of America I've been extended rights

868
00:45:17.600 --> 00:45:18.800
by Constitution.

869
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:21.800
I have a right for these things. But should a Christian say yes

870
00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:26.700
this is my inherent right as a human being? No, we should see these as gifts that God has given us

871
00:45:26.700 --> 00:45:27.900
and I'm grateful for that them.

872
00:45:27.900 --> 00:45:31.300
I am grateful for that the privilege of living in this country at its

873
00:45:31.300 --> 00:45:36.400
it's a lot of good things. So there is a nuisance between how we look at rights from the

874
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.500
right-hand Kingdom and the left hand. Absolutely.

875
00:45:38.500 --> 00:45:41.200
Let's wrap up with with the last thing

876
00:45:41.300 --> 00:45:47.600
you said. Our constitutional republic is a phenomenal

877
00:45:47.600 --> 00:45:49.400
blessing for the church. It is.

878
00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:53.800
I mean we've got big issues now, but if you want to talk about the

879
00:45:53.800 --> 00:45:58.900
blessing that we have under this. Right. Constitution and and and and

880
00:45:58.900 --> 00:46:04.300
polity. It's a gift because it allows us to be able to function with

881
00:46:04.300 --> 00:46:07.800
some autonomy and freedom and not being told what to do.

882
00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:10.800
We don't have government sticking in its nose and telling us what

883
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:13.900
to do or not to do. They're increasingly trying to do that, but that's the basic

884
00:46:13.900 --> 00:46:14.100
idea.

885
00:46:14.100 --> 00:46:18.300
So the government we live in does grant us the ability to be able to

886
00:46:18.300 --> 00:46:21.300
function as a church in the build our lives around God's truth.

887
00:46:21.300 --> 00:46:22.300
That's a great gift.

888
00:46:22.300 --> 00:46:26.800
It also tempts us because the government and the Constitution tempts

889
00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:29.700
into thinking that we are autonomous individuals that we have these

890
00:46:29.700 --> 00:46:33.800
right and that somehow, you know, the the pluralism that is

891
00:46:34.700 --> 00:46:38.800
core to the American experiment is also a great good. Where Christians

892
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:46.200
would say, pluralism God does lots of things in lots of ways but God is the only lord. And there aren't multiple ways to God and there aren't

893
00:46:46.200 --> 00:46:47.500
multiple truths.

894
00:46:47.500 --> 00:46:50.200
There's God's truth and so Christians don't fit in real.

895
00:46:50.200 --> 00:46:52.100
well that way either. So it's it's a mixed bag.

896
00:46:52.100 --> 00:46:55.000
So tell us the website again.

897
00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:59.700
Yeah, Scholar.csl.edu.

898
00:46:59.700 --> 00:47:03.600
Scholar.csl.edu and don't be intimidated cuz it's called scholar.

899
00:47:03.600 --> 00:47:08.900
It's a lot of stuff there is very. That's great. And I'm going to

900
00:47:08.900 --> 00:47:12.600
check with the current Administration and see if we can get you a

901
00:47:12.600 --> 00:47:17.300
Seminary credit for participating in this great discussion is it was

902
00:47:17.300 --> 00:47:18.100
it was wonderful.

903
00:47:18.100 --> 00:47:18.600
I thank you.

904
00:47:18.600 --> 00:47:19.500
Dr.

905
00:47:19.500 --> 00:47:23.800
Biermann for a very timely discussion. A lot of food for thought. And

906
00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:25.700
thanks to you our audience for joining us.

907
00:47:25.700 --> 00:47:29.600
May God's word guide all of us.

908
00:47:29.600 --> 00:47:33.700
That's our voters guide. And as always may the intersection of Word and

909
00:47:33.700 --> 00:47:34.600
Work be

910
00:47:34.700 --> 00:47:36.000
busy on your corner.