WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.200 --> 00:00:35.700 She has a Masters of Fine Arts from the Pennsylvania Academy of the 2 00:00:35.700 --> 00:00:37.100 Fine Arts in Philadelphia. 3 00:00:37.100 --> 00:00:43.900 Wow, and she is also the founder of Agnus Dei Liturgical Arts. Welcome 4 00:00:43.900 --> 00:00:46.600 Kelly and thank you for joining us on Word and Work. 5 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:50.500 It's really great to be here. Tell us about yourself first. 6 00:00:50.500 --> 00:00:58.000 Sure my name is Kelly Schumacher. And as you said, I'm the founder of Agnus Dei liturgical Arts. 7 00:00:58.000 --> 00:00:59.600 I live in St. 8 00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:00.000 Louis Missouri. 9 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:02.000 I was not born here. 10 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:05.090 I grew up kind of all over the United States. 11 00:01:06.900 --> 00:01:14.800 And about six six years ago my family and I started a small family-run 12 00:01:14.800 --> 00:01:20.100 business to bring that classical religious art into churches. 13 00:01:20.100 --> 00:01:24.100 That's great and we're to find out all about that how you said before 14 00:01:24.100 --> 00:01:27.600 we turned on the cameras that people sometimes call up your company 15 00:01:27.600 --> 00:01:29.700 and they want to talk to Agnes. 16 00:01:29.700 --> 00:01:37.500 Tell us about the name Agnus Dei. Sure well Agnus Dei, it originated when my dad and I 17 00:01:37.500 --> 00:01:42.100 were driving home from graduate school when I was in Philadelphia and 18 00:01:42.100 --> 00:01:46.300 I had started to make some religious art while I was there and he 19 00:01:46.300 --> 00:01:48.800 said, you know it we should come up with a company name. 20 00:01:48.800 --> 00:01:51.600 We've got 17 hours to drive all the way home. 21 00:01:51.600 --> 00:01:56.900 And yeah, he likes to drive a lot and he's like, let's talk about 22 00:01:56.900 --> 00:02:00.900 different names for the company and I thought well, let's do Sacred 23 00:02:00.900 --> 00:02:06.600 Heart Arts or Domino's and those just seemed a little strange and I 24 00:02:06.600 --> 00:02:06.900 don't know. 25 00:02:06.900 --> 00:02:11.300 The name Agnus Dei Liturgical Arts just kind of came to me and it's kind 26 00:02:11.300 --> 00:02:12.600 of flowed very nicely. 27 00:02:12.600 --> 00:02:16.800 But even though I didn't even remember when on Agnus Dei meant and I 28 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:21.800 looked it up on my iPhone also notice we call it our family a pocket 29 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:23.400 rocket just kinda funny. We call it a pocket rocket because it so fancy. 30 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:35.800 But I looked it up and it said Agnus Dei means Lamb of God and I thought well that works 31 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:40.500 really well because John's confession was look the Lamb of God who 32 00:02:40.500 --> 00:02:43.900 takes away the sin of the world and I thought that seems like a really 33 00:02:43.900 --> 00:02:54.300 great name for a Agnus Dei Liturgical Arts. Here at Concordia Seminary's chapel the altar has the Lamb of God in the front 34 00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:58.400 Agnus Dei and that's a focal point when we worship. 35 00:03:00.200 --> 00:03:12.800 What's the mission of Agnus Dei? Yes, well it started out one thing and as you know in our vocation it always kind of changes as time progresses. 36 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:15.800 So the original Mission that I wanted was when I was in Philadelphia. 37 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:20.500 I saw a lot of beautiful old churches and a lot of old art from the 38 00:03:20.500 --> 00:03:27.000 1300's, 1400's, 1500's and I thought wouldn't it be amazing if our churches 39 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:30.500 looked like this today the way that they could have looked like this today 40 00:03:30.500 --> 00:03:35.100 hundreds of years ago. And I had grown up Lutheran confessional 41 00:03:35.100 --> 00:03:40.300 Lutheran strong Sacred Music understanding and I'll head always wanted 42 00:03:40.300 --> 00:03:45.100 to find a form of visual art that fit with our confessions in our 43 00:03:45.100 --> 00:03:46.800 liturgy and 44 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:50.800 that's kind of where it where it started. 45 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:55.200 Now as I started working on that I was in the school environment where 46 00:03:55.200 --> 00:04:00.400 people are not Christians and I was meeting people that practiced 47 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:04.800 witchcraft people that practice Buddhism people that were agnostic 48 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:07.000 people that were Jewish all walks of life. 49 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:10.300 And I thought okay God how am I supposed to talk to these people 50 00:04:10.300 --> 00:04:14.300 I'm outside of my little safe Lutheran bubble. And I started making 51 00:04:14.300 --> 00:04:19.000 religious art and it started opening up these conversations where I 52 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:22.700 can talk to people about Jesus and I thought oh, that's what Agnus 53 00:04:22.700 --> 00:04:25.800 Dei is going to be about but as time progressed 54 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:28.900 that was only what I did for that short period 55 00:04:28.900 --> 00:04:34.500 of time and my original intent was to do commissioned art works for 56 00:04:34.500 --> 00:04:36.300 churches that has not panned out yet. 57 00:04:36.300 --> 00:04:41.800 But I do have an extensive body of work and prints and reproductions 58 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:46.400 that people purchase for their homes and churches and I've done some 59 00:04:46.400 --> 00:04:47.300 Mission work. So 60 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:50.700 and I have also done some children's books as well. 61 00:04:50.700 --> 00:04:55.300 So it's change from outreach to more encouraging those two are in the 62 00:04:55.300 --> 00:05:01.700 church and edifying them in their faith. Well that might be a divine change because I have the opinion 63 00:05:01.700 --> 00:05:05.900 that sometimes the people in our churches today need to be a 64 00:05:05.900 --> 00:05:10.300 evangelized before they can go out and then tell other people about 65 00:05:10.300 --> 00:05:15.100 Jesus. We'll do this number of times during during the program today, 66 00:05:15.100 --> 00:05:25.600 but do you have a website. Sure, my website is agnusdeiarts.com and that is agnus dei arts .com and you can also look up Agnus Dei 67 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:36.400 Liturgical Arts on Facebook. Agnus even though it looks like Agnes. 68 00:05:36.400 --> 00:05:36.600 Yeah. 69 00:05:38.200 --> 00:05:40.700 Liturgical art has been around for a long time 70 00:05:40.700 --> 00:05:45.900 You mentioned art in Philadelphia from what the 14th century tell us 71 00:05:45.900 --> 00:05:51.800 about liturgical art. Sure, art is simply is done to supplement the Liturgy. 72 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:56.600 So there's different kinds of art. There's ecclesiastical art, you 73 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:00.700 know, basic religious art but liturgy is meant to take place 74 00:06:00.700 --> 00:06:06.700 within the context of a church setting and it is meant to help people 75 00:06:06.700 --> 00:06:12.100 understand what is going on in terms of during the Divine service. 76 00:06:12.100 --> 00:06:26.900 How is liturgical art then different from you mentioned ecclesiastical art. There ecclesiastical, devotional, ecclesiastical is simply art that is religious. A picture of Saint 77 00:06:26.900 --> 00:06:35.200 John the Baptist. Yeah, anything that Biblically related. Like there is also devotional imagery as well. 78 00:06:35.200 --> 00:06:38.000 I can't remember all of Dennis McNamara 79 00:06:38.200 --> 00:06:45.600 who's like a Catholic he does a lot of analysis on traditional 80 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:49.600 churches in artwork, but there's different groupings on like is it 81 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:50.700 historical? 82 00:06:50.700 --> 00:06:54.600 Oh, yes, I remember is it so ecclesiastical is kind of the big 83 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:54.800 umbrella. 84 00:06:54.800 --> 00:07:00.300 But then with underneath that umbrella, you have liturgical, historical 85 00:07:00.300 --> 00:07:01.000 and devotional. 86 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:05.700 So liturgical I'm reveals Heavenly realities to people within the 87 00:07:05.700 --> 00:07:10.600 context of the Divine service on historical is simply recounting 88 00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:11.500 historical event. 89 00:07:11.500 --> 00:07:16.100 So it could be Moses parting the Red Sea on Jesus and like the 90 00:07:16.100 --> 00:07:20.400 miraculous catch of fish and all the disciples and then devotional 91 00:07:20.400 --> 00:07:23.800 could be something that someone kind of puts in a home altar. 92 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:27.700 It could be a picture of the Madonna and child or a crucifix where 93 00:07:27.700 --> 00:07:32.600 people meditate on that image and in the way you would meditate upon a 94 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:37.500 piece of scripture and gain a greater understanding and 95 00:07:38.200 --> 00:07:42.000 insight as to what Jesus has done for you. Now there are certain 96 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:44.100 pieces that fit all of those groupings. 97 00:07:44.100 --> 00:07:49.500 My My Hope was to do liturgical but I've actually been doing all 98 00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:49.800 three. 99 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:50.600 Okay. 100 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:53.400 Well, you know time marches on and things morph. 101 00:07:53.400 --> 00:08:04.200 Can you give us a history of liturgical art. Sure, there's a huge spectrum. Now this is kinda the western tradition this isn't like all around the 102 00:08:04.200 --> 00:08:07.500 world because in different countries and they will depict biblical 103 00:08:07.500 --> 00:08:11.200 stories in their own culture, but they're kind of less known in our 104 00:08:11.200 --> 00:08:12.000 history textbooks. 105 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:18.200 The first pieces of religious art that we start to see where on the 106 00:08:18.200 --> 00:08:23.300 sarcophagi and they would have images of the fish and Jonah being spit 107 00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:24.400 out of the belly of the fish. 108 00:08:24.400 --> 00:08:29.300 And that was meant to signify the idea that Christ was in the Tomb for 109 00:08:29.300 --> 00:08:33.100 3 days and the death spit him out and he is the resurrection. And he had referred to himself as a sign of Jonah. Exactly. 110 00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:43.790 And they would start to put those on their tombs not the crucifix over 111 00:08:43.790 --> 00:08:48.100 the cross that we typically see today and another image that they 112 00:08:48.100 --> 00:08:51.200 would show which we don't really see at all but they would still a 113 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:55.700 young beardless Christ carrying a sheep on his shoulders and that was 114 00:08:55.700 --> 00:08:59.800 meant to represent that I am the Good Shepherd. And then this kind of a 115 00:08:59.800 --> 00:09:05.100 good progression you get into like Romanesque, Gothic pre-renaissance 116 00:09:05.100 --> 00:09:10.200 the Renaissance the Baroque, you know, all of those historical 117 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:13.900 timelines, but I don't always like to organize things in terms of the art. 118 00:09:13.900 --> 00:09:15.300 I like to talk in terms of more 119 00:09:15.300 --> 00:09:19.200 what are the art objects that are made so you start out with 120 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:20.700 different kinds of sculptures. 121 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:25.800 Then you have I'm frescoes painted they did and I think they even did 122 00:09:25.800 --> 00:09:26.900 some caustic as well, 123 00:09:26.900 --> 00:09:27.900 that's in wax. 124 00:09:27.900 --> 00:09:33.000 Then you have the Gospels if it were done with like the illuminated 125 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.300 manuscripts that have this beautiful calligraphy and gold leaf that 126 00:09:37.300 --> 00:09:38.100 the monks with illustrate. 127 00:09:38.100 --> 00:09:42.700 So when we talked about our ecclesiastical or more specifically 128 00:09:42.700 --> 00:09:47.800 liturgical art, we're talkin about all kinds of media because you 129 00:09:47.800 --> 00:09:54.700 mentioned a Bible a gospel and gorgeous work that's done on that, but 130 00:09:54.700 --> 00:09:57.200 then it could also be paintings for Fresco's. 131 00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:03.400 So so we're talkin about all the media. All sorts of ways and then they developed stained glass in 132 00:10:03.400 --> 00:10:06.900 the Gothic era which is really beautiful as that's pointing back to 133 00:10:06.900 --> 00:10:11.300 Revelation the idea of these foundations when they talk about the 12 134 00:10:11.300 --> 00:10:15.800 foundations in the different precious stones the artists and 135 00:10:15.800 --> 00:10:19.700 architects of the time took that inspiration of clear and the idea of 136 00:10:19.700 --> 00:10:23.500 clear as Crystal and they would take pieces of glass and cut them into 137 00:10:23.500 --> 00:10:29.200 shapes and put them together on the crazy massive Windows to point 138 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:32.000 back to Revelation and the new Heavenly Jerusalem. 139 00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:42.400 So this all had a purpose, if my laymen's understanding is correct, a purpose of 140 00:10:42.400 --> 00:10:43.000 teaching the laity. Yes, absolutely teaching the laity. 141 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:48.000 So the scriptures were not in the language of the everyday man, 142 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:52.400 and many people were illiterate and one of the best ways to teach 143 00:10:52.400 --> 00:10:54.500 children and adults is through pictures. 144 00:10:54.500 --> 00:10:58.400 Plus it also sparks joy in my opinion. 145 00:10:58.400 --> 00:11:03.600 The beauty of the beautiful images and so in order to educate the 146 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:07.700 people they would take the biblical narratives or biblical symbols and 147 00:11:07.700 --> 00:11:10.800 they would put them into paintings or stained glasses all throughout 148 00:11:10.800 --> 00:11:11.500 churches. 149 00:11:11.500 --> 00:11:16.400 And today in our world that is becoming less of us Church than 150 00:11:16.400 --> 00:11:19.600 people are less and less of aware of what the scripture say, and I'm even 151 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:22.500 finding it difficult that even though people are aware of the 152 00:11:22.500 --> 00:11:23.100 scriptures. 153 00:11:23.100 --> 00:11:27.000 The the interpretation of the scriptures is totally off-base 154 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:30.500 the hermeneutic is just wow way wrong. 155 00:11:30.500 --> 00:11:35.800 I'm thinking that today we need to start using images again in the 156 00:11:35.800 --> 00:11:37.400 context of Church's books 157 00:11:38.100 --> 00:11:43.400 everything I'm to teach people what God's word actually says instead 158 00:11:43.400 --> 00:11:51.800 of what they think it says. It's a place to meet people. We have 4000-5000 thousand visitors to campus every year and 159 00:11:51.800 --> 00:11:56.200 many of them come from congregations and schools Lutheran Schools 160 00:11:56.200 --> 00:12:00.800 Lutheran confirmation classes and so on but every now and then there's 161 00:12:00.800 --> 00:12:05.000 an architectural group that just comes to see the architecture and 162 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:06.800 they say what what is this place all about? 163 00:12:06.800 --> 00:12:13.500 And so the art of these buildings becomes an occasion to to start 164 00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:16.700 talking about what we do and I would think even more so than 165 00:12:16.700 --> 00:12:19.800 buildings the art that you're talking about is a wonderful way. 166 00:12:19.800 --> 00:12:29.600 Right because the architecture a lot of times is very symbolic I mean, I love beautiful architecture, but it's you have to learn the 167 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:30.200 references. 168 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:31.500 Where as with the art 169 00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:34.800 you're going back to the narratives of scripture directly. Yes, for example you have 170 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:39.500 some of your work here. 171 00:12:39.500 --> 00:12:40.600 Could you describe 172 00:12:41.800 --> 00:12:48.100 a piece remembering that we have some radio listeners. Reminds me 173 00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:50.100 people always told me that when I was on the Lutheran Hour 174 00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:55.900 I had the perfect face for the radio. That's cute. Remembering remembering 175 00:12:55.900 --> 00:12:59.900 that we have people listen to radio would you describe it and and and 176 00:12:59.900 --> 00:13:06.900 these can be found on your website to so. Yes, this is pretty new but is not up on my website yet, but hopefully it'll be up to 177 00:13:06.900 --> 00:13:07.700 very very soon. Maybe when this broadcast it will be up. 178 00:13:07.700 --> 00:13:17.900 So I have here a little picture of baby Jesus and what's really neat 179 00:13:17.900 --> 00:13:21.200 about this picture that I'm there was a family that is seen at church 180 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:25.800 and they had this beautiful dark hair and dark skin, and they're 181 00:13:25.800 --> 00:13:31.100 actually they were descendants of Douglas Rutt, who is at the seminary is it 182 00:13:31.100 --> 00:13:33.800 this is his grand baby a few years ago. He's our Provost. Exactly, I saw him interviewed on Word and Work as well. 183 00:13:41.800 --> 00:13:46.500 It looks so perfect for the image of Mary Joseph and baby Jesus and I 184 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:49.800 found out that their little grand baby 185 00:13:49.800 --> 00:13:55.400 his name was Theodore and Theo means god. And dore means gift it was a gift of God. 186 00:13:55.400 --> 00:13:55.700 How providential here. 187 00:13:55.700 --> 00:14:02.400 But as I was posing the family and taking some photos. 188 00:14:02.400 --> 00:14:06.700 I noticed that the baby naturally would both his hands. 189 00:14:06.700 --> 00:14:11.800 And so I shot a photograph of him looking up with his hands folded and 190 00:14:11.800 --> 00:14:16.100 I thought that was so beautiful and I thought of hymn from heaven a 191 00:14:16.100 --> 00:14:17.400 heaven above to Earth 192 00:14:17.400 --> 00:14:22.200 I come to bare good news to every home and that idea of that Jesus 193 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:26.600 comes down as a gift for us, but I'm he's also our intercessor who 194 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:27.600 prays for us. 195 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:33.800 Yeah. That's one of the great things about art and in and I'm a philistin when it 196 00:14:33.800 --> 00:14:38.600 comes to art. But I have over the years collected art books and I 197 00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:40.900 will often sit and just look at them. 198 00:14:41.400 --> 00:14:43.000 And they're there is more 199 00:14:44.300 --> 00:14:50.200 communication of God's word in art often than in sermons yet. 200 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:51.600 You had said earlier that 201 00:14:53.500 --> 00:14:54.800 you're confessional. 202 00:14:54.800 --> 00:14:57.100 What does that mean 203 00:14:57.100 --> 00:15:06.700 and then how can art teach the confessions? Being confessional means believing in the Book of Concord. 204 00:15:06.700 --> 00:15:08.800 The inerrancy of God's Word, 205 00:15:08.800 --> 00:15:13.500 holding to the sacraments such as baptism, Holy Communion. 206 00:15:13.500 --> 00:15:18.700 The Creed's confession of sins office of the ministry. In other words standing for 207 00:15:18.700 --> 00:15:25.800 something. The idea that the Bible is totally sufficient, but I really 208 00:15:25.800 --> 00:15:26.500 had to learn this. 209 00:15:26.500 --> 00:15:29.500 I don't have any formal theological training a lot of this is just 210 00:15:29.500 --> 00:15:34.400 been going to church and asking a lot of questions and listening to. Your doing great. Thank you and having a lot of good mentors in my life. 211 00:15:34.400 --> 00:15:46.700 What I found overtime was that yes what makes Lutheran's distinct was 212 00:15:46.700 --> 00:15:46.900 that 213 00:15:46.900 --> 00:15:50.400 Yes, we believe in the Bible in this is sufficiency of scripture, but 214 00:15:50.400 --> 00:15:52.600 a lot of times people today, you know this 215 00:15:53.400 --> 00:15:57.100 Scripture verses and ripping them out of context and making it all 216 00:15:57.100 --> 00:16:02.300 about you and I have become increasingly disturbed by that. 217 00:16:02.300 --> 00:16:05.100 And so I thought well, I'm going to have to learn how to rightly 218 00:16:05.100 --> 00:16:08.500 handle God's Word and that you have Christ as the center of your 219 00:16:08.500 --> 00:16:09.800 motive interpretation. 220 00:16:09.800 --> 00:16:16.000 And that is the understanding of how God's Word is to be used and 221 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:16.800 handled rightly. 222 00:16:16.800 --> 00:16:21.200 So I thought well how to how do you make art that is based off of that 223 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:25.500 and I thought well, you know, we can do the basics of illustrating 224 00:16:25.500 --> 00:16:27.900 those things within the context of a sanctuary. 225 00:16:27.900 --> 00:16:31.500 So within other denominations such as the Catholic 226 00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:34.300 church, or even the Greek Orthodox Church. 227 00:16:34.300 --> 00:16:38.200 They have imagery as part of their litter tape at the purpose is very 228 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:43.300 different. The imagery within the Orthodox Church is meant to 229 00:16:43.300 --> 00:16:44.600 give you a window to heaven. 230 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:49.900 Little concerned about that cuz it it always has a sacramental 231 00:16:49.900 --> 00:16:52.700 function on which I don't think we would go that far. 232 00:16:52.700 --> 00:16:57.000 I think that we would say that art more serves as an illustration 233 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:02.400 versus a being performing some sort of salvific act by looking at 234 00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:03.500 that. 235 00:17:03.500 --> 00:17:04.400 That's a good point. 236 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:10.090 If I'm hearing you correctly art for us is an occasion for our minds 237 00:17:10.090 --> 00:17:13.900 to go to the Word and which revealed in the Word and what comes to us 238 00:17:13.900 --> 00:17:14.700 in the sacrament. 239 00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:17.700 The art itself is not the sacrament. 240 00:17:17.700 --> 00:17:20.700 It's I think the word is it's a sacramental. 241 00:17:20.700 --> 00:17:21.590 Yes. 242 00:17:21.590 --> 00:17:25.900 It's an occasion for us to go to the things which we is Lutheran's 243 00:17:25.900 --> 00:17:28.090 treasure the Word in the scriptures. 244 00:17:28.090 --> 00:17:29.100 So you know. 245 00:17:29.100 --> 00:17:34.700 So talk about this in a in a Lutheran context a Lutheran sanctuary. 246 00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:38.900 And of course, we're going to build our new church and we have to have 247 00:17:38.900 --> 00:17:42.800 to understand Pastor you have to understand Kelly that this stuff all cost 248 00:17:42.800 --> 00:17:42.900 money. 249 00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:45.200 So we're just going to have concrete block walls. 250 00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:48.700 So talk about in a Lutheran setting. Well we're not gnostics 251 00:17:48.700 --> 00:17:51.300 that's the first thing I want to say is developing that 252 00:17:51.300 --> 00:17:54.900 confessional iconography because on the flip side in the Catholic 253 00:17:54.900 --> 00:17:55.000 Church. 254 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:58.100 Yes, they have saints and things depicted. 255 00:17:58.100 --> 00:18:02.300 But the problem I don't want to say a problem is the church becomes almost 256 00:18:02.300 --> 00:18:07.400 like these are the super heroes of the faith, which is kind of once 257 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:07.800 again not 258 00:18:07.800 --> 00:18:08.700 quite correct either. 259 00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:13.500 Sorry, anyways, so getting back to the Lutheran understanding of how to 260 00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:15.000 create a Lutheran sanctuaries. 261 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:19.600 I've been thinking about this for a while as we have our your order of 262 00:18:19.600 --> 00:18:23.400 service and everything, but how would you create and iconography and 263 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:27.500 imagery for a sanctuary that is based off of our liturgy? 264 00:18:27.500 --> 00:18:33.200 And yes you start with you can illustrate something such as communion 265 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.800 and you can always illustrate communion. 266 00:18:36.500 --> 00:18:41.900 By going into the sacrifice of Christ on the cross or you can 267 00:18:41.900 --> 00:18:47.000 illustrate communion through the Last Supper and you can do that even 268 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:52.400 through you know baptism instead of just having baptism be a shell 269 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:53.100 with water. 270 00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:57.800 You can show baptism as the historic baptism of Christ or any of the 271 00:18:57.800 --> 00:18:59.500 historic baptisms in the Bible. These could be 272 00:18:59.500 --> 00:19:05.500 I mean built into the building painted into the walls, but I'm 273 00:19:05.500 --> 00:19:10.700 presuming they could be changeable displays as well. Churches often 274 00:19:10.700 --> 00:19:13.100 change posters banners. 275 00:19:14.600 --> 00:19:21.100 So it could be done that way to. I would say so, the beauty about paintings is that 276 00:19:21.100 --> 00:19:27.500 they are movable so like if there's a the tragedy of Notre Dame like a 277 00:19:27.500 --> 00:19:31.600 lot of the arts and architecture and the stained-glass was all 278 00:19:31.600 --> 00:19:31.900 Incorporated. 279 00:19:31.900 --> 00:19:41.100 And so when it burns everything burned. Yeah, your talking about the terrible fire at Notre Dame Cathedral. Right, right and the 280 00:19:41.100 --> 00:19:45.100 beautiful thing about cuz I wondered like oh my arts not one with the 281 00:19:45.100 --> 00:19:48.700 building. But what I've seen it isn't that the beauty of paintings is 282 00:19:48.700 --> 00:19:52.100 that they can be moved and they can be preserved and say a 283 00:19:52.100 --> 00:19:56.500 congregation has a more contemporary building and they commissioned 284 00:19:56.500 --> 00:20:00.600 some more traditional art if they finely want to get to a more 285 00:20:00.600 --> 00:20:04.500 traditional setting they'll still have the art of the art can move 286 00:20:04.500 --> 00:20:09.900 depending on its not stuck at that one church setting. 287 00:20:12.800 --> 00:20:13.800 I remember years ago. Many years ago 288 00:20:13.800 --> 00:20:20.200 I went to a non-denominational church in Washington DC checking it out 289 00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:24.100 and and it was an auditorium. 290 00:20:25.300 --> 00:20:32.900 I don't remember anything sacred sacramental that made me think that I 291 00:20:32.900 --> 00:20:37.800 was in a special place. The service did that in some measure 292 00:20:37.800 --> 00:20:40.800 but but yeah, and that's the best one of the things that art 293 00:20:40.800 --> 00:20:43.800 liturgical art can do. We got a lot more questions 294 00:20:43.800 --> 00:20:44.600 we want to ask. 295 00:20:44.600 --> 00:20:46.000 Thank you for educating me. 296 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:47.900 Thank you for educating our audience. 297 00:20:47.900 --> 00:20:50.600 We're going to take a short break, but we'll be right back. 298 00:20:50.600 --> 00:20:51.600 Stay with us. 299 00:20:51.700 --> 00:20:56.000 Make a difference in the world become a church worker or encourage 300 00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:00.200 someone you know who has the skills call Concordia Seminary admissions 301 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:08.000 at 800-822-9545 or email admission at CSL. 302 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:08.700 Edu. 303 00:21:08.700 --> 00:21:12.900 That's 800-822-9545. 304 00:21:12.900 --> 00:21:16.600 Concordia Seminary can make a difference in your world. 305 00:21:16.600 --> 00:21:20.400 Welcome back to Word an Work an Intersection. 306 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:24.300 I'm your host Dale Meyer today, I guess is Kelly Schumacher. 307 00:21:24.300 --> 00:21:31.200 She's a professional artist teachers and lectures on the topic and 308 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:34.800 Kelly is the founder of Agnus Dei Liturgical Arts. 309 00:21:35.500 --> 00:21:39.300 We had a colorful conversation in the first segment. 310 00:21:39.300 --> 00:21:41.400 We're going to continue that today. 311 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:45.000 Give us again your website. 312 00:21:45.000 --> 00:22:02.200 angusdeiarts.com(agnus dei arts). Like agnes but you don't say agnes you say agnus. What will your visitors to the website find there? 313 00:22:03.600 --> 00:22:04.300 Yes, they will see originals. 314 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:11.500 I offer lessons and there's a store section that has prints, cards 315 00:22:11.500 --> 00:22:13.600 reproductions all sorts of things. 316 00:22:13.600 --> 00:22:22.500 So if a person wants cards you have baby Jesus but Christmas has passed but you have Christmas cards? 317 00:22:22.500 --> 00:22:33.200 Yes, Christmas cards, thanksgiving cards, Easter, Lent all year round cards. A lot of them have and sheep for Agnus Dei as well. 318 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:38.600 But just a lot of different cards that people can send out at any time 319 00:22:38.600 --> 00:22:41.100 of the year to offer Christian encouragement. 320 00:22:41.100 --> 00:22:44.500 Well you had mentioned that your original purpose in for in founding a 321 00:22:44.500 --> 00:22:49.200 Agnus Dei was it to to make a bridge whereby you could witness 322 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:54.000 to somebody who doesn't know all that we believe about Jesus cards can 323 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:58.600 do that. Yes, they do. So you have a friend who doesn't go to church doesn't 324 00:22:58.600 --> 00:23:04.300 know the real story of The Bible and you send them an Agnus Dei card 325 00:23:04.300 --> 00:23:05.300 with your your note inside 326 00:23:05.300 --> 00:23:08.300 and who knows what the Holy Spirit might do. Exactly. 327 00:23:10.700 --> 00:23:11.500 You've taken 328 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:17.900 one or more mission trips that were devoted to art. 329 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.900 What was that like? Yeah. 330 00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:23.500 Well, I took one. 331 00:23:23.500 --> 00:23:30.600 I took it in January of 2019 and I got I was asked to go out there and 332 00:23:30.600 --> 00:23:34.800 serve and create a painting and the print is actually right there. 333 00:23:34.800 --> 00:23:41.400 The original is 3 by 4 feet out there at the Dominican Republic Palma 334 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:46.600 Arena and Santiago. And I'm I had a chance to be out there and work 335 00:23:46.600 --> 00:23:50.700 with the missionaries and they asked me to do a painting and I thought 336 00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:55.600 why not do a picture of Jesus with the children of the missionary 337 00:23:55.600 --> 00:23:57.000 school out there. 338 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:08.600 So that's what I did. So you did that and I assume the children were watching the progress of your work? Actually I did it inside of a house because I would have to travel on site every single 339 00:24:08.600 --> 00:24:12.600 day and that just didn't work out and there's a lot of bugs and 340 00:24:12.600 --> 00:24:15.700 mosquitoes and things like that when you're out there so not the 341 00:24:15.700 --> 00:24:19.100 safest environment so I pretty much worked on that. And then 342 00:24:20.100 --> 00:24:20.900 a few days 343 00:24:20.900 --> 00:24:26.200 I taught lessons to the missionary children and the children of the 344 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:31.200 Dominican Republic as well. So your painting has Christ exalted 345 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:38.100 but with all the children sitting around him and some are looking into 346 00:24:38.100 --> 00:24:39.500 the camera looking at us. 347 00:24:39.500 --> 00:24:41.300 Some are looking at 348 00:24:41.300 --> 00:24:41.900 Jesus. 349 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:49.800 Did you use that then as a teaching Aid in witnessing to the children? Not really, so what 350 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:58.900 I did was I it was meant to be more of a witnessing thing after I had 351 00:24:58.900 --> 00:25:03.200 gone because I didn't finish it until literally like a day before I 352 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:07.100 had to leave so the children didn't really see it until it was put up. 353 00:25:07.100 --> 00:25:12.500 But I'm what I did was I had made a coloring pages for the children 354 00:25:12.500 --> 00:25:17.200 based off of biblical narratives and a few days. 355 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:22.000 I went with these students and we did these coloring pages and they 356 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:26.600 water-colored the biblical stories and then they could take those 357 00:25:26.600 --> 00:25:27.600 pages home. 358 00:25:27.600 --> 00:25:31.200 And remember what God's word says and share it with their friends and 359 00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:37.700 family. It's kind of a Dominican version of what my little grandsons did in church 360 00:25:37.700 --> 00:25:38.700 they colored 361 00:25:39.500 --> 00:25:45.700 Biblical pictures took them home and through the drawing 362 00:25:45.700 --> 00:25:48.800 started to learn the Bible stories. 363 00:25:48.800 --> 00:25:58.200 Okay, do you can you tell the story of Salvation the biblical 364 00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:07.300 narrative through art? Yes, that is one of my hopes is in creating liturgical art is how do 365 00:26:07.300 --> 00:26:10.300 getting back before any of that iconography. 366 00:26:10.300 --> 00:26:14.500 How do you develop a confessional Lutheran iconography and I talked a 367 00:26:14.500 --> 00:26:18.700 little bit about baptism and communion the sacraments being 368 00:26:18.700 --> 00:26:22.800 represented but also, you know, if you were to design a full Sanctuary 369 00:26:22.800 --> 00:26:26.200 that tells the Salvation message, you know, what would that look like? 370 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:32.900 And I think that the best basic way to start telling that salvation 371 00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:38.800 message is through the Creed just the basic Apostles Creed and that 372 00:26:39.500 --> 00:26:43.900 I would love to see churches that illustrate the Creed's through the 373 00:26:43.900 --> 00:26:44.200 whole thing. 374 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:46.800 So you could get through 375 00:26:46.800 --> 00:26:50.600 I believe in God the Father Almighty maker of heaven and earth and you 376 00:26:50.600 --> 00:26:55.800 have maybe some hands creating the sky and Heavens the firmament that 377 00:26:55.800 --> 00:27:02.000 the moon the stars the the Earth down below the separation of land and 378 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:06.800 water, trees, vegetation, animals. God creating man and woman in the 379 00:27:06.800 --> 00:27:07.400 Garden of Eden. 380 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:12.300 So or even you know them falling into sin and you take each part of 381 00:27:12.300 --> 00:27:16.000 the creation so make of heaven and in Jesus Christ his only son our Lord 382 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:17.600 who is conceived by the Holy Spirit. 383 00:27:17.600 --> 00:27:22.300 So maybe doing an Annunciation or something like this piece in the 384 00:27:22.300 --> 00:27:26.200 back where you have the angel speaking to Mary. 385 00:27:27.100 --> 00:27:31.800 That blessed are you and that the idea of the moment of conception 386 00:27:31.800 --> 00:27:38.700 is when she you know accepts that gift of Life in Her womb conceived 387 00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:42.900 by the Holy Spirit born of the Virgin Mary another piece, you know in 388 00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:47.700 the iconography would be a nativity. Suffered under Pontius Pilate 389 00:27:47.700 --> 00:27:53.700 Christ before Pontius Pilate was crucified. Christ on the cross died 390 00:27:53.700 --> 00:27:57.500 him being taken down from the cross buried Christ placed in the Tomb. 391 00:27:57.500 --> 00:28:03.600 He descended to Hell Christ preaching the gospel to the people in 392 00:28:03.600 --> 00:28:04.100 limbo. 393 00:28:04.100 --> 00:28:07.200 That's a common theme in art history. 394 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:25.800 Not completely Lutheran but the descended into hell, yes. Right. You believe that. We believe that he proclaimed his victory. In Christian iconography on the third day 395 00:28:25.800 --> 00:28:27.000 he rose again from the dead. 396 00:28:27.100 --> 00:28:29.200 And that Christ is risen. 397 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:34.600 He is either a speaking Comfort to Mary Magdalene or just raising with 398 00:28:34.600 --> 00:28:38.500 being risen with the victory banner out of the Tomb on his Ascension 399 00:28:38.500 --> 00:28:39.100 Ascension. 400 00:28:39.100 --> 00:28:43.000 I would love to do see pieces that have Christ ascending into heaven 401 00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:51.700 illustrating the hymn up through endless ranks of angels. Have you seen sanctuaries that have this? No. Because I was 402 00:28:51.700 --> 00:28:56.500 thinking I can't I can't remember any. No, this is what I would love to be able to 403 00:28:56.500 --> 00:28:59.100 do some day but I don't know if it'll actually happen. 404 00:28:59.100 --> 00:29:05.700 But I mean, I see how things to where you could could be that 405 00:29:05.700 --> 00:29:14.100 would be very affirmative on to what we believe. The church where I grew up in the 1960's built a 406 00:29:14.100 --> 00:29:19.600 new Gothic style church, and they have what you just described in the 407 00:29:19.600 --> 00:29:20.400 windows. 408 00:29:21.100 --> 00:29:23.900 And those are faceted than Windows there, they're fabulous 409 00:29:23.900 --> 00:29:26.100 but but that's kind of rare. 410 00:29:26.100 --> 00:29:31.900 So you don't see it too often and I suspect I'm just taking a guess 411 00:29:31.900 --> 00:29:39.100 that if it if a pastor or congregation wanted to start in displaying 412 00:29:39.100 --> 00:29:43.900 aspects of the Creed in the sanctuary, they could probably call Agnus 413 00:29:43.900 --> 00:29:51.600 up right? O yeah, anytime. Agnus Dei would be interesting and and you you'd be willing to 414 00:29:51.600 --> 00:29:56.000 talk with them about your maybe maybe just some art pieces to start 415 00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.500 with that they could use seasonally. Right. 416 00:29:59.500 --> 00:30:03.300 I would love to see that because a lot of times we see in churches 417 00:30:03.300 --> 00:30:05.300 just symbols, right. 418 00:30:05.300 --> 00:30:09.900 You know, we'll see, you know grapes or a cup for some wheat or some 419 00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:15.200 little like ripples that look like water and even though that's nice. 420 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.100 What we're doing is this were taking our doctrines and we're reducing 421 00:30:19.100 --> 00:30:21.000 them to symbols in terms of our imagey. 422 00:30:21.100 --> 00:30:25.700 And I would really like to reverse that is where we take our doctrines 423 00:30:25.700 --> 00:30:29.700 and we point them back to where is this rooted in history. 424 00:30:29.700 --> 00:30:31.600 Where does it actually come from? 425 00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:34.200 And the thing isn't that obvious. 426 00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:35.400 I see that 427 00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:37.700 the reason that's happened is dual fold. 428 00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:41.400 I think that doing kind of more figurative representational work is 429 00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:45.500 very it's a little more expensive but I also think that the ability in 430 00:30:45.500 --> 00:30:49.200 the craft to do this kind of work has been lost and there's fewer and 431 00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:50.700 fewer people if I can do it today. 432 00:30:52.300 --> 00:30:54.500 That makes sense that makes sense. 433 00:30:54.500 --> 00:30:57.900 You talk about ripples and bread and grapes 434 00:30:57.900 --> 00:31:02.800 and so and I was just thinking about a funeral or a wedding when you 435 00:31:02.800 --> 00:31:06.700 have people who don't know the scriptures don't know the church that 436 00:31:06.700 --> 00:31:08.500 probably doesn't mean anything to them. 437 00:31:08.500 --> 00:31:12.700 Whereas if you have a person Jesus 438 00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:19.500 yeah, that communicates more. One of the things I suspect I am clueless 439 00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:22.800 about is simply illustration as an art. 440 00:31:22.800 --> 00:31:28.600 Would you talk about? Yes, well illustration has kind of gotten a bad rap in the fine art world 441 00:31:28.600 --> 00:31:33.200 cuz in the fine art world, it's a lot about you expressing yourself. 442 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:39.700 You have to be true to yourself be authentic and it ends up being very 443 00:31:39.700 --> 00:31:44.800 self centered at the end of the day. But illustration is simply taking 444 00:31:44.800 --> 00:31:52.100 a text and adding imagery to supplement and support the text. And so 445 00:31:52.100 --> 00:31:54.200 as a as a child 446 00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:56.800 my mother collected Caldecott books. 447 00:31:56.800 --> 00:32:00.000 I'm not sure if you're familiar with what those are. What? Caldecott books. No. 448 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:07.500 So I don't remember how long ago this started but the best illustrator 449 00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:11.800 of the year would receive a Caldecott medal and there was like, you 450 00:32:11.800 --> 00:32:13.800 know, this is like a gold or silver 451 00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:18.800 medal that's like on these books. And my mother had collected even 452 00:32:18.800 --> 00:32:20.000 before I was into art 453 00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:25.100 all these beautiful old Caldecott books of the best illustrations of 454 00:32:25.100 --> 00:32:25.700 the year. 455 00:32:25.700 --> 00:32:30.500 And I remember looking at all these books as a child and just loving 456 00:32:30.500 --> 00:32:35.100 them and I still love Illustrated children's books and I had this kind 457 00:32:35.100 --> 00:32:38.400 of little hope in my heart that someday I would be able to make 458 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:50.600 illustrated children's books and. How did that turn out? Well, I've got two out. Talk about one of these books. This is the second one I did. 459 00:32:50.600 --> 00:32:51.700 It was produced with them. 460 00:32:51.700 --> 00:32:52.200 Kloria publishing. 461 00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:54.200 They're taking classical 462 00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:57.400 You're more than welcome to look at it and they're taking classical 463 00:32:57.400 --> 00:32:58.500 Lutheran hymns. 464 00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:01.500 And in order to to yes, you've probably heard of them. 465 00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:07.300 This is great the title on this for this book, which camera do I look 466 00:33:07.300 --> 00:33:07.500 into 467 00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:09.500 This one. 468 00:33:09.500 --> 00:33:09.900 Okay. 469 00:33:09.900 --> 00:33:10.800 You got it. 470 00:33:10.800 --> 00:33:15.200 You see that the Lord that I Love Thee with all my Heart and it's based on 471 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:20.200 a hymn by Martin Schalling 16th century. Herr, dich liebe ich von ganzem; 472 00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:20.600 Herzen. 473 00:33:20.600 --> 00:33:21.400 Lord, thee 474 00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:22.200 I love with all my heart. 475 00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.600 I pray Thee ne'er from me depart, With tender mercies cheer me. 476 00:33:24.600 --> 00:33:26.000 This is one of my favorites. 477 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:26.400 Okay. Good, great. It is. You can keep a copy. Wow. 478 00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:36.200 My mom thought you might like one. That really is 429 in the old Lutheran Hymnal. 479 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:37.800 I don't know what it is. 480 00:33:37.800 --> 00:33:45.100 708 now, I think it is no kidding. So describe what is in this gorgeous book. 481 00:33:45.100 --> 00:33:46.400 Yeah, thank you. So I did it in colored pencil. 482 00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:51.000 And as I said the the publisher he's trying to take all anything. 483 00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:54.400 They produce about seven books at this point the classical Lutheran 484 00:33:54.400 --> 00:34:01.700 hymns and he hires artists to illustrate to teach families to help 485 00:34:01.700 --> 00:34:05.500 teach family, as you know, these classical hymns and theology to their 486 00:34:05.500 --> 00:34:05.700 children. 487 00:34:05.700 --> 00:34:08.600 So I love purple not wearing it today. 488 00:34:08.700 --> 00:34:14.000 But typically I wear purple but I took so it's a story of a little 489 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:14.400 girl 490 00:34:15.600 --> 00:34:20.300 and her family and yeah, that's just the first page. 491 00:34:20.300 --> 00:34:22.700 They're getting out from church 492 00:34:22.700 --> 00:34:23.200 one day. And you did all the art work? Yes. 493 00:34:23.200 --> 00:34:31.500 This is actually St. Paul's Des Peres but I transplanted into a field 494 00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:36.200 of lavender and it's just the story of this little girl in her family 495 00:34:36.200 --> 00:34:41.500 and she ends up having a terminal illness in the book. 496 00:34:41.500 --> 00:34:48.100 So I wanted it to be a book that families could use the teach them 497 00:34:48.100 --> 00:34:48.900 about the resurrection. 498 00:34:50.300 --> 00:34:54.000 But also the we know how do we handle the face, 499 00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:57.600 you know it what what do we do when we're faced with death? 500 00:34:57.600 --> 00:35:02.700 And then so there's two meanings you have both the Eternal reality of 501 00:35:02.700 --> 00:35:03.500 what's going on. 502 00:35:03.500 --> 00:35:07.900 But also what is the vocation that each of these family members have 503 00:35:07.900 --> 00:35:16.500 in the in within suffering. This is tremendous I had not seen this before and on this page, she's diagnosed 504 00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:20.300 with the terminal illness. And the text says, and should my heart for 505 00:35:20.300 --> 00:35:22.000 sorrow break my trust in thee. 506 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:23.900 Nothing could shake thou art the portion, 507 00:35:23.900 --> 00:35:25.700 I have sought thy precious blood. 508 00:35:25.700 --> 00:35:29.100 My soul has bought. Herr Jesus Christus, 509 00:35:29.100 --> 00:35:32.800 Mein Gott und Herr, mein Gott und Herr, 510 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:36.200 Verlaß mich nicht! Ich vertraue deinem Wort. 511 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:38.600 What a teaching book this is wow. 512 00:35:38.600 --> 00:35:51.300 Keep going don't mind me. I'm really so happy, it's great. This is the scene because her aunt that don't worry. 513 00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:54.400 The real girl is alive and healthy and well, we just this is a 514 00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:55.000 fictional story. 515 00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:03.200 We actually had her aunt and actually modeled as the nurse who was a 516 00:36:03.200 --> 00:36:08.600 nurse and this is her mother praying but she's remembering the so I 517 00:36:08.600 --> 00:36:13.100 put two images two transparencies over each other and wanted to show 518 00:36:13.100 --> 00:36:17.900 Jesus as the one who the mother is trusting in in the midst of 519 00:36:17.900 --> 00:36:20.500 uncertainty which that's life. 520 00:36:20.500 --> 00:36:25.400 And then the little girl is praying and reading her Bible and then 521 00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:27.400 she's getting her head shaved at home. Forsake not I trust thy word. 522 00:36:31.500 --> 00:36:36.200 Yeah, I mean literally likes he's terrified, but she has peace. 523 00:36:37.600 --> 00:36:40.100 And then this is another. This begins the second stanza. 524 00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:42.400 Yes, baby. 525 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:48.100 Oh, yes, we can sing it if you want but the little girl and you know, 526 00:36:48.100 --> 00:36:52.000 she's had her head shaved at this point and she's getting sicker and 527 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.200 she's confined to bed. 528 00:36:53.200 --> 00:36:56.900 But her sister comes in and gives her a butterfly to point to the 529 00:36:56.900 --> 00:37:02.800 resurrection and she wants to go outside and play and do things and 530 00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:06.100 but her brother and sister outside raking leaves, but her mom is 531 00:37:06.100 --> 00:37:09.300 caring for her as she has to wait. 532 00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:11.600 These are all your illustrations? Yes. 533 00:37:12.700 --> 00:37:21.600 And you like purple I love purple purple. I think the next book I do won't have quit as much purple but who knows and then this 534 00:37:21.600 --> 00:37:26.200 is another page where the whole family is together and their reading 535 00:37:26.200 --> 00:37:26.700 the Bible. 536 00:37:26.700 --> 00:37:31.100 Is that even though she can't give in the way that other people can 537 00:37:31.100 --> 00:37:34.000 give she can simply read the scriptures to her family. 538 00:37:36.900 --> 00:37:40.500 Realistic and encouraging and there's Pastor David Smith. Yes, he is that was fun 539 00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:47.900 to do and then he retired. 540 00:37:47.900 --> 00:37:53.800 So this was kind of a last. You know your senior pastor now 541 00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:57.590 this is little factoid was a student of mine Pastor Thomas. 542 00:37:57.590 --> 00:37:58.590 Yeah, he's good. He's great. He's so good. 543 00:37:58.590 --> 00:38:05.900 Okay, and so another page she's getting sicker her dad is praying 544 00:38:05.900 --> 00:38:06.400 for her. 545 00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:08.700 She eventually does die. 546 00:38:08.700 --> 00:38:12.300 This is probably a book. 547 00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:17.800 I was just thinking how you would use this with a child because in one 548 00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:21.400 sense, it's a downer that you don't want to put on a child on the 549 00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:22.700 other hand is very realistic. 550 00:38:24.200 --> 00:38:27.800 And and using this book who say Hey, you know. 551 00:38:29.700 --> 00:38:35.500 This is teaching the whole faith the whole faith. Right, that was something when I was looking for 552 00:38:35.500 --> 00:38:40.900 models I was actually calling up hospitals and I have some you know, is 553 00:38:40.900 --> 00:38:43.500 there anyone that I could use cuz I actually wanted to use an actual 554 00:38:43.500 --> 00:38:48.600 sick person and they said no and I and I was like because I thought 555 00:38:48.600 --> 00:38:51.900 well obviously for privacy, of course, like I want to respect people 556 00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:56.600 in that that way but they said that we're not comfortable with us 557 00:38:56.600 --> 00:39:02.300 because we only want people to focus on recovery. And that made me 558 00:39:02.300 --> 00:39:05.600 really sad because I was like, what about all the people that don't 559 00:39:05.600 --> 00:39:10.600 get well and they do get well but they don't get well in this life and 560 00:39:10.600 --> 00:39:12.100 even though it is kind of a downer. 561 00:39:12.100 --> 00:39:12.600 Don't worry. 562 00:39:12.600 --> 00:39:14.200 It's that does end very well. 563 00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:20.200 Yeah, it might be that this is for a healthy child. 564 00:39:20.200 --> 00:39:23.200 You know, your your friend is sick. 565 00:39:23.200 --> 00:39:28.400 Well, let's let me hug you and let's let's read this book. Let's 566 00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:28.700 quickly 567 00:39:28.700 --> 00:39:39.200 look at the other book that you had. This one was the first book that I did the creation, the fall and the promise and it kind of goes through 568 00:39:39.200 --> 00:39:40.700 the whole salvation narrative. 569 00:39:43.100 --> 00:39:47.800 But it's done and more of like an illuminated manuscript style. 570 00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:58.200 So but you get some pictures of all the animals. Oh yeah, what a good teaching. There's a doggie. There's a unicorn too in there. 571 00:39:58.200 --> 00:40:07.100 And an alpaca, penguins all sorts of animals the bleeding heart Dove. How long does it take to do one of 572 00:40:07.100 --> 00:40:07.600 these pieces? 573 00:40:07.600 --> 00:40:09.000 Oh my goodness. 574 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:11.600 Well, it depends on sometimes they can take a few days. 575 00:40:11.600 --> 00:40:16.000 Sometimes it can take like 2 weeks maybe a month books. 576 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:21.300 I've noticed it taken about two to three years to complete. Here's 577 00:40:21.300 --> 00:40:23.200 another one of the Garden of Eden. 578 00:40:24.100 --> 00:40:34.200 Before weeds started to grow. Yeah, before but there coming quickly. That's wonderful then and again 579 00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:45.700 somebody can go to your website and find out about these books, great resource. Jesus coming to Eve while she is 580 00:40:45.700 --> 00:40:49.700 hiding in the bushes and asking them who 581 00:40:51.200 --> 00:40:55.600 you know, where are you that idea that Jesus seeks us out and finds us. 582 00:40:55.600 --> 00:41:03.500 And he covered her shame. He did. God did. Let's wrap this up with one 583 00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:10.200 one story that takes us back to the beginning you wanted to use art 584 00:41:10.200 --> 00:41:11.700 to introduce people to Jesus. 585 00:41:11.700 --> 00:41:14.700 Have you had an experience where that happened? 586 00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:22.400 Not that I know of now I've had a lot of conversations with people but 587 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.600 did anyone actually repent and believe the gospel, 588 00:41:25.600 --> 00:41:32.000 not that I know of. But I have had a lot of experience with meeting 589 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:36.500 people within the church and bringing them the hope of eternal life. 590 00:41:36.500 --> 00:41:42.600 So there was a man that I met who is part of than the AA program who 591 00:41:42.600 --> 00:41:48.200 could not stop looking at my art a few maybe a month or so ago. 592 00:41:48.200 --> 00:41:52.500 There was a young man that kept looking at my art and I started 593 00:41:52.500 --> 00:41:57.800 talking to him and he said that his wife loved my artwork and that he 594 00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:02.500 wanted to buy a print for her because their child has been sick in the 595 00:42:02.500 --> 00:42:06.500 hospital for so long and he wanted to thank her for sacrificing 596 00:42:06.500 --> 00:42:07.800 everyday for their family. 597 00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:11.700 There is an there's an elderly Pastor that I know he's a good friend 598 00:42:11.700 --> 00:42:12.200 of mine. 599 00:42:12.200 --> 00:42:15.500 His wife was a few years ago his wife had recently 600 00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:21.600 passed and he saw one of my pictures of Mary at the tomb and he just 601 00:42:21.600 --> 00:42:24.900 had to buy that because he missed his wife so much and couldn't wait 602 00:42:24.900 --> 00:42:26.300 for the resurrection of the dead. 603 00:42:26.300 --> 00:42:32.800 So it it does happen, you know, when a pastor preaches a sermon or a 604 00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:40.100 pastor visits a home, hospital, nursing facility and witnesses especially to 605 00:42:40.100 --> 00:42:42.800 someone was outside the faith even inside the faith. 606 00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:47.800 You don't really know what's going on deep in that soul. 607 00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:52.600 But you have provided an occasion and you have provided occasion many 608 00:42:52.600 --> 00:42:57.300 occasions through your art where the Holy Spirit does his work calls gathers 609 00:42:57.300 --> 00:42:59.500 and lightens the whole Christian Church on Earth. 610 00:42:59.500 --> 00:43:03.700 So I thank you Kelly for an interesting discussion you will forgive me for 611 00:43:03.700 --> 00:43:07.800 my ignorance, but I'm less ignorant now that I was when the program 612 00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:11.400 begin. And I want to thank you our audience for joining us. 613 00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:15.900 I'm Dale Mayer and this has been a great episode of Word and Work. 614 00:43:16.200 --> 00:43:20.600 an Intersection. May the intersection of word and work be busy on your 615 00:43:20.600 --> 00:43:21.200 corner.