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All right, we ready to roll?

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I am.

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Mic's on.

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Ryan's up there.

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I'm all set.

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We'll get the screen.

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That'll be back here in
a minute, I'm sure, too.

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So we'll be all good.

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All right, excellent.

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I'm ready to roll, I think.

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Good.

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So we started, we ended
by me just introducing

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Richard John Newhouse,
and time ran out, and

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you all ran off and ate
your lunch, which is great.

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That was the whole plan.

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So I want to get into
Newhouse just a little bit.

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But before I do that,
I've had a couple of

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you very intrigued
by the fact that he was

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a CSL grad and became
Roman Catholic, and

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some of you are just
like flabbergasted that

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he would do that.

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Why would anybody do that?

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And you're reminding
me of my students.

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We have some courses
here now where we read,

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we use Newhouse in
some books, some of our

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courses.

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Like I said, I'm
kind of a fan

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of Newhouse for
a lot of reasons.

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Maybe that'll become evident.

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I don't have a lot of
time to get into all that.

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But we have, one
of the books we read

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by him is one called
Catholic Matters.

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And we have
students read this.

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And it's a very
interesting book.

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And I'm putting this
up here because, and

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this is all relevant
for the questions.

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So some of you are saying,
how could he do that?

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Well, if you really want
to know, read this book.

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Because if you read
Catholic Matters, this is

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where Newhouse is
basically kind of telling

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his story growing up Lutheran,
why he became Catholic.

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And he gets into some
other stuff going on

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in the church, talks
about post Vatican II

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and some of the problems in

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Rome and all
this kind of stuff.

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He was a great
lover of John Paul II.

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In fact, he was one
of the guys who started

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calling John Paul,
John Paul the Great, and

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was a real big fan of JP too.

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So Newhouse tells
the story about why

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he became Catholic
in Catholic Matters.

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We have students read it here.

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And when I first
read the book

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Catholic Matters,
I was like, whoa,

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that's a really
compelling argument he's

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making about why
he became Catholic.

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And it's just like, I thought,
man, I'm going to have to be,

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hope some of my
students aren't ready

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to swim the Tiber
and become Catholic.

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So I went to class
thinking, this is going

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to be, I'm going to
have to kind of talk

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him off the ledge and
get him back where

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they need to be and
solid and everything.

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It was just the opposite.

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The students were like,
traitor, how could he do it?

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They were like, bah, spit
on, I was kind of like, whoa.

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So it shows my inability to
read my audience, I guess.

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But the reason I
find his argument

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compelling is, the
bottom line is what he

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argues in Catholic
Matters is that the

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Lutheran church was
never designed to be

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a break off church,
it was meant to bring

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the church back to
the right teaching.

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And so the whole
point of Luther and

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even of the Augsburg
Confession was,

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this is the church's teaching.

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All the church
should be teaching

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this, and Rome
should be teaching this.

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We're Roman, we
should be teaching

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this, this is the
right teaching.

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And the fact that
the Pope resisted and

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then the church
rejected was always kind

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of a bummer to
Luther, and in a

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sense, he was
shocked by that.

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And so, and
this is fair to say,

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I'm not just making this up,

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it was with
reluctance that they

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began to do their own thing.

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Ordering their own pastors and
set up their own organization.

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They didn't want to.

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And so that's
good to remember.

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Newhouse was
thoroughly educated in that.

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One of his favorite profs
here was Arthur Karl Piepkorn.

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Peepcorn was
a strong Catholic,

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Lutheranism was a reforming
movement with Catholicism.

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And he taught this again
and again and again.

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Newhouse completely
was formed by that.

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And so for him,
going to Rome wasn't

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rejecting his
Lutheran heritage,

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it was bringing
it to fulfillment.

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And that's how he sees it.

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So he was going
home to Rome where he

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needed to be for
the sake of unity.

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And I sometimes
tell students, remind

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them that if your
choice is ELCA or

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Rome, maybe he
didn't choose so badly.

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I mean, and so it's

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unfortunate, I
always say, well,

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why didn't he come
back to the LCMS?

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But there are lots
of reasons why

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that wouldn't have
happened either.

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But anyway, that's a
little bit about Newhouse.

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And I'm not trying to defend
him cuz I, just to be clear,

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I'm not ready to go to Rome.

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I'm not encouraging
anybody to do that.

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I always scratch my head when

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people do it, so
I'm also like, why?

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Rome is not what it was in
Luther's day, I'll say that.

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But she's not where
she needs to be yet.

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And she's got a
ways to go yet before

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I'm ready to throw
my lot in there, okay?

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So just a little bit on that.

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But if you're
curious, this is

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actually a really
entertaining read.

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Newhouse is an
exceptional writer.

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I mean, when it comes to just
English language and prose,

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he is a really good writer.

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And he really disappoints.

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He's just a delight to read.

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He just crafts
sentences really well.

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His first book, Naked Public

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Square, is a little
bit ponderous.

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He got to be a better
writer with more practice.

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I suppose we all do.

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But this book, Catholic
Matters, is a gem.

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And American Babylon
also, it's just nice.

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It's just nicely
written, great

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arguments, it's really good.

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Trevor?

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Why don't you tell
us a good book?

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What is the name of
the book that you know or

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want to take
about your screen?

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It hasn't been published yet.

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It was being held
up because they

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didn't like one
of the essays.

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So I don't know if it's
gonna get published.

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It hasn't come out yet.

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So it's still waiting.

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If you want to read what I

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wrote, I can send
you a copy, but

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it's not mine to send.

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So it's like, not copyrighted.

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It's copyrighted, so
you can't distribute it.

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But you can read it and throw
it away or whatever you do.

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All right, good.

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So let's hear from,
now, what I wanna get

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into this afternoon
is I wanna take some

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of this stuff
we've been talking

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about and actually apply it.

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And I wanna share
with you a little

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bit about what
Newhouse is sharing here

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a little bit.

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When I did the last
one of these, and

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somebody was reminding
me that I probably

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did this in 2011, and that
might have been the case.

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I don't remember
exactly what year.

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I know that the stuff
that's posted online

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for the sum has the
date 2012 on it, but

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that might have been when it
was posted, so I don't know.

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But anyway, in some ways, 11
or 12, it's been a long time.

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But the last time
I did this, I talked

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about ways of getting
the two realms wrong.

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And I wanna kinda
do that again, but I'm

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gonna have different
answers this time,

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cuz I wanna zero in
more on what we're

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dealing with now
in the situation we're

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facing in our country.

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And unpack that a little bit.

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So I'm gonna talk
about Newhouse, and

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then I wanna spend
a fair amount of time

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with Hunter, and I'm
gonna take the risk

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of actually putting
some Hunter stuff up

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here and walking
through some of what

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he's doing and
actually reading him,

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which I know is
potentially boring, but

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I'm gonna do it
anyway cuz I think it's

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worth doing.

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And unpack it for you a little
bit and talk about that.

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And then I wanna give you
a generous time for Q&A.

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And if you don't
fill that time,

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I've got more
stuff I will do.

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And so it's kind of up to you.

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So in other words,
you don't have

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to fill the whole
Q&A time, but

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we'll manage to get
this thing through.

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And I wanna mention too, I've
got a note to myself here.

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Those are my
notes for the day.

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So my note is
that I've got some

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stuff I've talked
about relevant to

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this from time to time
on my YouTube channel.

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Yes, I have a YouTube
channel, and I'm

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always a little
embarrassed to say that,

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but I've got one.

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My wife and kids
kind of roped me

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into it, and it's
a long story.

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But yeah, and seriously, they
kind of tricked me into it.

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So now anyway, so
I've got a YouTube

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channel, and I
actually do make videos

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from time to time,
and I try to every

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couple of weeks put
a new one up there.

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And I've got one on, is
America a Christian nation?

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American, different
home for hate,

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some of these
kinds of things.

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I got one on Christian
nationalism, they're there.

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And so if you wanna go, you're
curious, check that out.

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So it's just youtube.com
backslash at,

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and then just my
name, Joel Bierman.

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And so no spaces,
and that's it.

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So it's just my name,
my YouTube channel, and

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you can check it
out if you want to.

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By the way, also
there, and this is

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what got the
whole thing started.

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So I'll tell you
the quick story.

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So my daughters are

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homeschooling
their kids, and so

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my oldest grandchild is
gonna be 12 in January.

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So this last year
they said, dad, why

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don't you teach a
class for our older kids?

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Okay, fine, I could do that.

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Well, since we're living in
different parts of the county,

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why don't you do it online?

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Fine, I'll do it in
a Zoom meeting.

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I didn't want to,
but I'll do it in Zoom.

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Well, if you're doing
that, you may as

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well record it and
then post it, right?

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So that's, and so I don't
know how to do that.

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We'll take care of it.

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And so anyway,
that's how it started.

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And so I have 32 sessions
of me teaching my grandkids.

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And what I taught
them last year was I

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went through the
Augsburg Confession,

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the whole Augsburg
Confession with them.

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And so it's 32 lessons of me

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teaching my four
oldest grandkids

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the Augsburg Confession.

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So if you're curious, you can

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00:08:42,126 --> 00:08:43,456
check that out,
and it's there too.

248
00:08:44,290 --> 00:08:45,391
All right, good?

249
00:08:45,992 --> 00:08:47,460
Let's get on with this.

250
00:08:47,727 --> 00:08:48,427
So Newhouse.

251
00:08:49,228 --> 00:08:51,528
Newhouse wrote this
book, American Babylon,

252
00:08:51,570 --> 00:08:53,432
several different
chapters in here.

253
00:08:53,566 --> 00:08:57,064
But one of his
concerns is the

254
00:08:57,106 --> 00:09:00,873
way that America
has risen up and

255
00:09:00,873 --> 00:09:02,775
the kind of the
tensions we have here.

256
00:09:02,909 --> 00:09:04,443
And I'm gonna get more
into that with Hunter.

257
00:09:04,544 --> 00:09:06,145
Hunter's even better
at telling that story.

258
00:09:06,612 --> 00:09:08,128
But Newhouse has
a couple really good

259
00:09:08,170 --> 00:09:09,849
insights to touch on
one of these things,

260
00:09:09,849 --> 00:09:11,683
which I wanna talk
about first here, which

261
00:09:11,725 --> 00:09:13,686
is this whole thing of
Christian nationalism.

262
00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,143
And this is a phrase
you're hearing

263
00:09:16,185 --> 00:09:17,790
maybe a lot more these days.

264
00:09:18,391 --> 00:09:19,913
It's something we didn't hear

265
00:09:19,955 --> 00:09:21,894
about hardly at
all five years ago.

266
00:09:22,228 --> 00:09:23,512
But now suddenly
it's all over the

267
00:09:23,554 --> 00:09:24,764
place, and you're
hearing a lot.

268
00:09:25,464 --> 00:09:27,833
If you guys pay
attention to some stuff,

269
00:09:28,234 --> 00:09:29,506
you know that
the seminary has

270
00:09:29,548 --> 00:09:30,903
a podcast we do
called Tangible.

271
00:09:31,037 --> 00:09:31,971
How many of you
have heard of that?

272
00:09:32,738 --> 00:09:34,307
Okay, good, about half of you.

273
00:09:34,807 --> 00:09:36,776
And on Tangible, we
have different topics.

274
00:09:37,076 --> 00:09:38,933
So I've done a
couple of those,

275
00:09:38,975 --> 00:09:40,813
or maybe three
of them now, but

276
00:09:40,813 --> 00:09:43,049
two of them, on this topic
of Christian nationalism.

277
00:09:43,583 --> 00:09:46,152
The first one I did with David
Adams, one of my colleagues.

278
00:09:46,152 --> 00:09:47,455
And the second
one I did with Joel

279
00:09:47,497 --> 00:09:48,955
Okamoto, another
one of my colleagues.

280
00:09:49,789 --> 00:09:52,006
And so, and on
those podcasts, I'm

281
00:09:52,048 --> 00:09:54,627
quite critical of
Christian nationalism.

282
00:09:55,194 --> 00:09:56,395
It's just no surprise.

283
00:09:56,829 --> 00:09:58,152
But a lot of people
are like, well,

284
00:09:58,194 --> 00:09:59,632
wait a minute, what's
wrong with that?

285
00:09:59,732 --> 00:10:01,534
What's wrong with
wanting a Christian nation?

286
00:10:01,534 --> 00:10:03,102
And that's kind of
what I wanna get into.

287
00:10:03,269 --> 00:10:05,047
I think you should
already be able to

288
00:10:05,089 --> 00:10:06,906
start having some
good answers to that

289
00:10:06,906 --> 00:10:08,641
based on everything I
gave you this morning.

290
00:10:09,008 --> 00:10:10,728
Cuz if you think hard
about everything I

291
00:10:10,770 --> 00:10:12,445
taught this morning
in those two hours,

292
00:10:12,445 --> 00:10:14,685
about the realms
and how they work,

293
00:10:14,727 --> 00:10:16,816
and the AC 16
and how this works.

294
00:10:17,249 --> 00:10:18,827
It becomes more
clear why this

295
00:10:18,869 --> 00:10:20,853
confusion of things
becomes a problem.

296
00:10:21,153 --> 00:10:22,503
And for me, Christian
nationalism is

297
00:10:22,545 --> 00:10:23,823
fundamentally a
problem because of

298
00:10:23,823 --> 00:10:25,324
the confusion it creates.

299
00:10:25,891 --> 00:10:28,066
While Newhouse
wrote his book in 2009,

300
00:10:28,108 --> 00:10:30,096
before Christian
nationalism was in

301
00:10:30,096 --> 00:10:31,797
the spotlight and getting
all kinds of attention.

302
00:10:32,198 --> 00:10:33,672
But he was also
writing some things

303
00:10:33,714 --> 00:10:35,101
that I think are
very relevant to

304
00:10:35,101 --> 00:10:35,768
this discussion.

305
00:10:35,868 --> 00:10:38,137
So I wanna start with that,
and we'll get into Hunter.

306
00:10:38,604 --> 00:10:40,539
So, Newhouse
made this comment.

307
00:10:40,539 --> 00:10:43,936
He writes that,
excuse me, we see

308
00:10:43,978 --> 00:10:47,213
again, right here
in the middle,

309
00:10:47,813 --> 00:10:52,752
that without a church
that is not notional but real,

310
00:10:53,352 --> 00:10:55,911
without a church
that bears a promise

311
00:10:55,953 --> 00:10:58,758
and a purpose that
transcend the American

312
00:10:58,758 --> 00:11:00,846
experience, the
American experience

313
00:11:00,888 --> 00:11:02,662
itself in ways
both subtle and

314
00:11:02,662 --> 00:11:06,432
vulgar offers itself
as a substitute church.

315
00:11:07,366 --> 00:11:12,772
Now that is really profound,
really brilliant insight here.

316
00:11:13,272 --> 00:11:15,508
Now he's writing this as a
Roman Catholic priest, and

317
00:11:15,508 --> 00:11:17,143
he's obviously a
defender of Rome.

318
00:11:17,343 --> 00:11:18,711
But his point is this.

319
00:11:19,145 --> 00:11:21,047
So again, kinda just see
this whole thing in context.

320
00:11:21,614 --> 00:11:23,963
We see again that
without a church

321
00:11:24,005 --> 00:11:26,052
that is not
notional but real.

322
00:11:26,218 --> 00:11:28,287
Now what does he mean
by not notional but real?

323
00:11:28,921 --> 00:11:30,089
So this is the
first big thing.

324
00:11:30,222 --> 00:11:31,891
We need to get
terms with this.

325
00:11:32,358 --> 00:11:35,261
Newhouse, one of the reasons
why I like him is he takes

326
00:11:35,261 --> 00:11:37,196
seriously the
church as the church.

327
00:11:38,130 --> 00:11:39,602
In other words,
the church should

328
00:11:39,644 --> 00:11:41,200
make a difference
for how you live.

329
00:11:41,867 --> 00:11:43,198
And this is a
theme that anybody

330
00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:44,403
who's had me in class knows,

331
00:11:44,503 --> 00:11:47,073
I just pound this home
again and again and again.

332
00:11:47,339 --> 00:11:48,474
This gets into
the ethics thing.

333
00:11:48,874 --> 00:11:50,597
Church is not something
you do on Sunday

334
00:11:50,639 --> 00:11:52,445
morning to fill the
spiritual part of your

335
00:11:52,445 --> 00:11:54,413
life, and you go back
to the rest of your life.

336
00:11:55,147 --> 00:11:56,882
Church defines who you are.

337
00:11:57,583 --> 00:11:59,585
Church defines what
it means to be alive.

338
00:12:00,119 --> 00:12:01,887
Church tells you who
you are in the world.

339
00:12:02,354 --> 00:12:05,024
Church teaches you what to
do in the world, how to do it.

340
00:12:05,024 --> 00:12:06,541
The church becomes
the thing that

341
00:12:06,583 --> 00:12:08,094
norms and guides
and directs you.

342
00:12:08,394 --> 00:12:09,528
It just is everything.

343
00:12:10,096 --> 00:12:11,590
And so that's what
he means by a

344
00:12:11,632 --> 00:12:13,165
church that is
not just notional.

345
00:12:13,666 --> 00:12:14,768
When it's notional, it's just

346
00:12:14,810 --> 00:12:16,268
something that
goes on in your head.

347
00:12:16,936 --> 00:12:18,137
I have these beliefs.

348
00:12:19,071 --> 00:12:21,607
I have this spiritual
faith system.

349
00:12:22,108 --> 00:12:23,342
I have this belief system.

350
00:12:23,576 --> 00:12:25,072
And so I have
this belief system,

351
00:12:25,114 --> 00:12:26,378
you have that belief system.

352
00:12:26,545 --> 00:12:28,047
But other than that,
we're all the same.

353
00:12:28,414 --> 00:12:30,064
Well, then what
kind of belief system

354
00:12:30,106 --> 00:12:31,884
is that if you have
completely different

355
00:12:31,884 --> 00:12:33,486
belief systems but
you're still all the same?

356
00:12:34,253 --> 00:12:35,621
You see, that's
what he's getting at.

357
00:12:35,788 --> 00:12:37,761
If your belief
system is really more

358
00:12:37,803 --> 00:12:39,925
than a belief system
but it is actually

359
00:12:39,925 --> 00:12:42,368
encompassing you
and the church is more

360
00:12:42,410 --> 00:12:44,830
than just notional,
now it starts to be

361
00:12:44,830 --> 00:12:48,067
a thing that norms you and
names you and guides you.

362
00:12:48,367 --> 00:12:50,936
And it's not something you
just fit into your life, but

363
00:12:50,936 --> 00:12:53,205
it becomes the
normative thing in your life.

364
00:12:53,739 --> 00:12:55,104
So Newhouse is
not the only guy

365
00:12:55,146 --> 00:12:56,375
who says this kind of stuff.

366
00:12:56,809 --> 00:12:58,822
This is the way that
Stanley Hauerwas

367
00:12:58,864 --> 00:13:01,080
talks, and some of
you know that name and

368
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,716
I am a big reader
of Hauerwas, okay?

369
00:13:03,883 --> 00:13:04,917
He talks this way.

370
00:13:05,284 --> 00:13:08,487
And you've got Franz Pieper,
some of you have heard of him.

371
00:13:08,954 --> 00:13:10,256
He will talk this way.

372
00:13:10,556 --> 00:13:14,126
And then you get people like
Jesus who will talk this way.

373
00:13:15,161 --> 00:13:17,428
And so it's kind of
not this just weird

374
00:13:17,470 --> 00:13:19,431
idea that you
should be completely

375
00:13:19,431 --> 00:13:21,436
swallowed up in
this thing of following

376
00:13:21,478 --> 00:13:23,369
Christ and living
the Christian life.

377
00:13:23,469 --> 00:13:24,970
That's what
Newhouse is getting at.

378
00:13:25,237 --> 00:13:28,030
So a church that is
not notional but real,

379
00:13:28,072 --> 00:13:30,576
without a church
that bears a promise,

380
00:13:30,576 --> 00:13:35,247
and a purpose that transcend
the American experience.

381
00:13:36,148 --> 00:13:37,990
Then the American
experience itself

382
00:13:38,032 --> 00:13:39,652
in ways both
subtle and vulgar,

383
00:13:40,152 --> 00:13:42,388
offers itself as a
substitute church.

384
00:13:43,389 --> 00:13:45,427
So in other words,
people are gonna

385
00:13:45,469 --> 00:13:47,259
have something
they hang on to.

386
00:13:47,626 --> 00:13:48,927
And this is what Newhouse was

387
00:13:48,969 --> 00:13:50,496
getting at in his
earliest book,

388
00:13:50,796 --> 00:13:52,097
The Naked Public Square.

389
00:13:52,431 --> 00:13:55,968
And his argument there is that
there needs to be something

390
00:13:55,968 --> 00:13:58,365
that holds a nation
together beyond

391
00:13:58,407 --> 00:14:00,506
just the fact
that we're all in

392
00:14:00,506 --> 00:14:04,043
the same geographic location
and all have the same flag.

393
00:14:04,476 --> 00:14:06,557
You need to have
something there, a

394
00:14:06,599 --> 00:14:09,014
spiritual anchor, a
spiritual foundation.

395
00:14:09,448 --> 00:14:12,785
And if that's not there,
something will fill it.

396
00:14:13,052 --> 00:14:14,453
This is his big insight.

397
00:14:14,787 --> 00:14:18,491
And so if you take
the church out or you

398
00:14:18,533 --> 00:14:22,094
take God out, it
doesn't stay a vacuum.

399
00:14:22,728 --> 00:14:24,930
Something comes rolling
right back in to fill it.

400
00:14:24,930 --> 00:14:26,785
And what he was
getting at in his

401
00:14:26,827 --> 00:14:29,001
book, In the Naked
Public Square in 84,

402
00:14:29,468 --> 00:14:31,804
which is before the fall
of the Berlin Wall and

403
00:14:31,804 --> 00:14:33,572
before the collapse
of the Soviet Union.

404
00:14:33,973 --> 00:14:36,145
He was making the
strong argument there

405
00:14:36,187 --> 00:14:38,177
is typically what
fills that void is

406
00:14:38,844 --> 00:14:42,915
stateism, okay, where
the state becomes the god.

407
00:14:42,915 --> 00:14:44,392
And this is exactly
what you see

408
00:14:44,434 --> 00:14:45,951
going on in the
old Soviet Union.

409
00:14:46,452 --> 00:14:48,187
So what is the most
important thing?

410
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:48,888
The state.

411
00:14:49,188 --> 00:14:49,989
And what do you live for?

412
00:14:50,222 --> 00:14:50,689
The state.

413
00:14:50,923 --> 00:14:51,624
Who defines you?

414
00:14:51,724 --> 00:14:52,124
The state.

415
00:14:52,124 --> 00:14:54,198
And see the
state was just all

416
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,695
encompassing, told
you who you were,

417
00:14:56,762 --> 00:14:58,296
what you meant to
be alive, and it was

418
00:14:58,338 --> 00:14:59,832
functioning as the
de facto religion.

419
00:15:00,266 --> 00:15:01,100
And everybody knew it.

420
00:15:01,467 --> 00:15:03,035
And that was
exactly the intent.

421
00:15:03,369 --> 00:15:06,030
Well Newhouse's
concern is in the West,

422
00:15:06,072 --> 00:15:08,908
if we start kicking
God out of everything,

423
00:15:09,308 --> 00:15:11,795
we're gonna
create a void in the

424
00:15:11,837 --> 00:15:14,747
public square,
what's gonna fill that?

425
00:15:16,048 --> 00:15:17,216
What's gonna fill that?

426
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:19,500
Well, and now
he's writing now in

427
00:15:19,542 --> 00:15:21,754
American Babylon at
the end of his career.

428
00:15:21,754 --> 00:15:26,191
Now in 2009, he's
writing 30, 25 years later.

429
00:15:26,392 --> 00:15:29,190
And now he's writing
about how America's

430
00:15:29,232 --> 00:15:31,931
functioning like
the de facto religion.

431
00:15:32,331 --> 00:15:34,433
And the evidence is
pretty thick around us.

432
00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:36,769
And you can see it if you
think about it yourself, okay?

433
00:15:36,969 --> 00:15:39,772
So I think this is a really
good insight, all right?

434
00:15:39,905 --> 00:15:41,307
So that's the first
comment he makes.

435
00:15:41,707 --> 00:15:42,632
And then he
picks it up, again,

436
00:15:42,674 --> 00:15:43,609
a little bit later
in the book.

437
00:15:43,676 --> 00:15:45,144
That was on page
50 in his book.

438
00:15:46,111 --> 00:15:49,248
Now later on in the book on
page 184, quite a bit later,

439
00:15:49,248 --> 00:15:50,749
he comes back to some of this.

440
00:15:51,183 --> 00:15:53,485
And he is talking about
some of the concerns he has.

441
00:15:54,420 --> 00:15:56,360
And so let's
see, let's just pick

442
00:15:56,402 --> 00:15:58,090
it up here down on the, yeah.

443
00:15:59,291 --> 00:15:59,858
Good here.

444
00:16:01,126 --> 00:16:04,363
He says discipline skepticism
about the politics of this or

445
00:16:04,363 --> 00:16:07,066
any society is not
cynicism, but wisdom.

446
00:16:07,333 --> 00:16:09,267
So we need to have
a discipline skepticism

447
00:16:09,309 --> 00:16:10,869
about the politics
of any society.

448
00:16:10,936 --> 00:16:11,637
And he says this.

449
00:16:12,171 --> 00:16:14,121
It is a wisdom
that is regularly

450
00:16:14,163 --> 00:16:16,575
celebrated as the
genius of the American

451
00:16:16,575 --> 00:16:17,776
constitutional order.

452
00:16:18,510 --> 00:16:20,179
This is an order
that allows for

453
00:16:20,179 --> 00:16:23,749
political interventions
animated by lofty aspirations.

454
00:16:24,283 --> 00:16:27,486
One might even say that it is
inspired by such aspirations.

455
00:16:27,786 --> 00:16:29,372
At the same
time, however, it is

456
00:16:29,414 --> 00:16:31,090
constructed on
the assumption that

457
00:16:31,090 --> 00:16:33,459
aspirations are
tethered to interest.

458
00:16:33,859 --> 00:16:35,794
This is commonly
called realism.

459
00:16:36,695 --> 00:16:38,373
Realism does not
deny that there is

460
00:16:38,415 --> 00:16:40,132
such a thing as
the public interest.

461
00:16:40,366 --> 00:16:42,315
But it recognizes
that it is usually

462
00:16:42,357 --> 00:16:43,969
best secured
by the contest of

463
00:16:43,969 --> 00:16:45,819
particular interest
typically claiming to

464
00:16:45,861 --> 00:16:47,706
be in the service of
the public interest.

465
00:16:48,207 --> 00:16:50,361
Partisans of particular
interest sometimes

466
00:16:50,403 --> 00:16:52,444
describe opposing
interests as factions.

467
00:16:53,045 --> 00:16:54,780
So now what he's doing
is setting the stage here.

468
00:16:55,047 --> 00:16:56,388
In other words,
our constitution, and

469
00:16:56,430 --> 00:16:57,883
we were talking
about this this morning,

470
00:16:58,250 --> 00:17:00,490
is built on the
premise of these

471
00:17:00,532 --> 00:17:03,088
different factions
working in kind of

472
00:17:03,088 --> 00:17:04,671
competition with each other,

473
00:17:04,713 --> 00:17:06,625
different ideas
about things and

474
00:17:06,625 --> 00:17:08,427
trying to balance
these things out.

475
00:17:08,527 --> 00:17:09,728
That's part of how it works.

476
00:17:09,928 --> 00:17:11,438
We have aspirations
which are more

477
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:12,898
lofty, which
we're shooting for.

478
00:17:13,132 --> 00:17:14,656
But in the meantime,
we've got concrete

479
00:17:14,698 --> 00:17:16,301
things to work out
with different ways of

480
00:17:16,301 --> 00:17:19,605
doing things in these kinds
of factions down here below.

481
00:17:20,239 --> 00:17:21,573
And so then he goes
a little further here.

482
00:17:22,641 --> 00:17:24,910
The goal of the, I'll
pick it up here, yeah.

483
00:17:25,611 --> 00:17:27,187
The goal of the
American political

484
00:17:27,229 --> 00:17:28,614
order, sorry
about my writing.

485
00:17:28,847 --> 00:17:30,798
This is my own copy
of my own book, so

486
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:32,985
you get all my, when
I read, I take notes.

487
00:17:33,385 --> 00:17:36,155
And so, if I like
something, I note it.

488
00:17:36,488 --> 00:17:38,245
The goal of the
American political

489
00:17:38,287 --> 00:17:40,392
order, wrote Father
John Courtney Murray,

490
00:17:40,926 --> 00:17:43,285
Is to maintain a
circumstance in which

491
00:17:43,327 --> 00:17:45,664
citizens are locked
in civil argument.

492
00:17:46,065 --> 00:17:47,866
You think, wait a
minute, that's not right.

493
00:17:47,966 --> 00:17:49,681
No, he says this
is exactly how the

494
00:17:49,723 --> 00:17:51,770
American Constitution
is supposed to work.

495
00:17:52,404 --> 00:17:54,106
Civil argument.

496
00:17:54,673 --> 00:17:56,572
We're not agreeing
on things, but

497
00:17:56,614 --> 00:17:58,610
we have a means
to work it through.

498
00:17:59,044 --> 00:18:00,930
And we have a
way of negotiating

499
00:18:00,972 --> 00:18:03,248
things and a way
of ironing things out.

500
00:18:03,415 --> 00:18:05,117
We're locked in
a civil argument.

501
00:18:05,517 --> 00:18:08,620
My argument in the 1984
book, The Naked Public Square,

502
00:18:08,620 --> 00:18:11,890
has frequently been
misunderstood on this score.

503
00:18:12,524 --> 00:18:14,268
Especially by
those whose political

504
00:18:14,310 --> 00:18:15,994
activity is
religiously motivated.

505
00:18:16,662 --> 00:18:18,367
The alternative
to the naked public

506
00:18:18,409 --> 00:18:20,299
square, meaning
public life stripped of

507
00:18:20,299 --> 00:18:22,587
religion and
religiously grounded

508
00:18:22,629 --> 00:18:25,504
argument, is not the
sacred public square,

509
00:18:25,938 --> 00:18:28,173
but the civil public square.

510
00:18:28,941 --> 00:18:32,277
The sacred public square is
located in the New Jerusalem.

511
00:18:32,845 --> 00:18:36,115
The best that can be done
in Babylon is to maintain,

512
00:18:36,115 --> 00:18:39,418
usually with great difficulty,
a civil public square.

513
00:18:40,452 --> 00:18:43,055
Now, how Lutheran
does that sound?

514
00:18:44,523 --> 00:18:46,125
It's exceedingly Lutheran.

515
00:18:46,558 --> 00:18:48,165
And this is what I
mean by Newhouse is

516
00:18:48,207 --> 00:18:49,728
not rejecting his
Lutheran heritage.

517
00:18:49,995 --> 00:18:52,331
He's writing this in
2009 just before he dies.

518
00:18:52,831 --> 00:18:54,666
He wrote it in 2008,
published in 09.

519
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,503
But this is exceedingly
Lutheran sounding,

520
00:18:57,503 --> 00:19:00,072
because this is exactly
the way we would teach it.

521
00:19:00,372 --> 00:19:03,375
So, and hear this, cuz
this is critically important.

522
00:19:03,976 --> 00:19:06,171
So the problem
of the naked public

523
00:19:06,213 --> 00:19:08,447
square is we're
pulling God out and

524
00:19:08,447 --> 00:19:09,715
we don't think he
matters anymore.

525
00:19:10,082 --> 00:19:11,183
So then what happens?

526
00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:12,711
Something comes
into the field of

527
00:19:12,753 --> 00:19:13,919
space, theitism
or whatever else.

528
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:15,754
But see, now he's
concerned in 09.

529
00:19:15,954 --> 00:19:17,656
He's already seeing
the first glimmers of this.

530
00:19:18,123 --> 00:19:19,291
They're religiously motivated.

531
00:19:19,491 --> 00:19:20,559
What do they want to do?

532
00:19:20,926 --> 00:19:23,228
Instead of having
a civil public square,

533
00:19:23,395 --> 00:19:26,064
they want to bring a
sacred public square.

534
00:19:26,532 --> 00:19:28,026
And they want to
enforce, cuz they

535
00:19:28,068 --> 00:19:29,601
think, uh-oh, we've
kicked God out.

536
00:19:29,668 --> 00:19:31,470
We've gotta put God
and the church back in.

537
00:19:31,470 --> 00:19:33,672
And Newhouse is saying, no,
no, no, that's not the point.

538
00:19:34,373 --> 00:19:37,119
The point is
having a civil public

539
00:19:37,161 --> 00:19:40,345
square where we can
have discussions and

540
00:19:40,345 --> 00:19:42,854
debates, but see,
the key is that there's

541
00:19:42,896 --> 00:19:45,384
something underneath
that allows us to be

542
00:19:45,384 --> 00:19:46,418
civil with one another.

543
00:19:47,386 --> 00:19:49,955
There are commonalities
that hold us together, and

544
00:19:49,955 --> 00:19:51,072
that's what Hunter's story is

545
00:19:51,114 --> 00:19:52,391
gonna be here
in just a minute.

546
00:19:52,424 --> 00:19:53,091
I'm gonna get into that.

547
00:19:53,225 --> 00:19:54,370
So if you're
wondering, wait a

548
00:19:54,412 --> 00:19:55,827
minute, Hunter's
gonna fill that gap.

549
00:19:55,994 --> 00:19:58,773
What I want you to
hear now is Newhouse

550
00:19:58,815 --> 00:20:00,999
is, I think, very
important and

551
00:20:00,999 --> 00:20:03,809
very prescient
concern about trying

552
00:20:03,851 --> 00:20:06,305
to make a sacred
public square.

553
00:20:06,939 --> 00:20:08,755
In other words, let's make

554
00:20:08,797 --> 00:20:11,510
Christianity the
religion of America,

555
00:20:11,543 --> 00:20:14,746
cuz it always has been, and we
need to get back to this, and

556
00:20:14,746 --> 00:20:15,681
that's what we need to do.

557
00:20:16,048 --> 00:20:17,216
That's Christian nationalism.

558
00:20:18,183 --> 00:20:20,552
And so a Christian
nationalism wants to assert

559
00:20:21,153 --> 00:20:24,723
Christianity as the de
facto authority in America.

560
00:20:25,357 --> 00:20:26,925
And the argument
sounds compelling.

561
00:20:27,125 --> 00:20:28,657
Well, it's God's
religion, it's God's

562
00:20:28,699 --> 00:20:30,395
truth, we should all
live by God's truth.

563
00:20:30,395 --> 00:20:31,363
Why not do it?

564
00:20:32,631 --> 00:20:34,733
And see, and that's
why people get confused.

565
00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:36,168
Why don't you like
Christian nationalism?

566
00:20:36,668 --> 00:20:37,703
I thought you liked morality.

567
00:20:38,003 --> 00:20:39,304
I thought you
liked God's truth.

568
00:20:39,471 --> 00:20:40,762
I thought you
liked the law being

569
00:20:40,804 --> 00:20:42,174
upheld according
to God's commands.

570
00:20:42,474 --> 00:20:43,675
What's the problem with that?

571
00:20:43,709 --> 00:20:44,910
That's what Christian
nationalism wants.

572
00:20:45,410 --> 00:20:47,045
You see, Christian
nationalism wants too much.

573
00:20:47,913 --> 00:20:49,248
It wants everything.

574
00:20:49,615 --> 00:20:51,494
It wants to assert
itself, and it wants

575
00:20:51,536 --> 00:20:53,552
to have the state
supporting all this, and

576
00:20:53,552 --> 00:20:56,188
it wants to become
the de facto authority.

577
00:20:56,488 --> 00:20:58,223
That's not the
church's business.

578
00:20:59,024 --> 00:21:01,994
See, Christian nationalism
is confusing the two realms,

579
00:21:02,527 --> 00:21:05,063
running them together
in an absolute mess.

580
00:21:05,564 --> 00:21:06,331
That's the problem.

581
00:21:06,431 --> 00:21:07,065
It's a confusion.

582
00:21:07,532 --> 00:21:09,777
Now, having said
that, am I sympathetic

583
00:21:09,819 --> 00:21:12,104
to many of the agenda
items of Christian

584
00:21:12,104 --> 00:21:12,571
nationalism?

585
00:21:12,871 --> 00:21:14,106
Yes, absolutely.

586
00:21:14,973 --> 00:21:17,376
And I hear this
criticism a lot.

587
00:21:17,909 --> 00:21:19,697
People made up
Christian nationalism on

588
00:21:19,739 --> 00:21:21,613
the left just to make
Christians shut up.

589
00:21:22,147 --> 00:21:22,781
I've heard this.

590
00:21:23,148 --> 00:21:26,551
In other words, the left,
whoever that is in your mind,

591
00:21:26,551 --> 00:21:28,956
is using this term
Christian nationalism

592
00:21:28,998 --> 00:21:31,323
to make Christians
feel embarrassed and

593
00:21:31,323 --> 00:21:32,691
to make us back out
of the public square.

594
00:21:32,891 --> 00:21:34,393
That way we
become ineffective.

595
00:21:34,626 --> 00:21:35,427
We can't let that happen.

596
00:21:35,494 --> 00:21:36,461
We've got to get
more effective.

597
00:21:37,162 --> 00:21:38,563
Now, here's my response.

598
00:21:39,231 --> 00:21:41,437
I agree that
Christians should not

599
00:21:41,479 --> 00:21:43,468
be forsaking the
public square.

600
00:21:44,002 --> 00:21:45,370
And Newhouse is
arguing this as well.

601
00:21:45,604 --> 00:21:47,406
We need to be present there.

602
00:21:47,606 --> 00:21:48,974
We need to be involved.

603
00:21:49,141 --> 00:21:51,643
We need to be speaking
God's truth into that square.

604
00:21:51,810 --> 00:21:54,846
But our objective can never be
that of Christian nationalism.

605
00:21:55,414 --> 00:21:58,245
Our goal is not to
make the church take

606
00:21:58,287 --> 00:22:01,086
over and become
the de facto authority.

607
00:22:01,353 --> 00:22:02,087
This is not our goal.

608
00:22:02,287 --> 00:22:03,221
That's Rome's goal.

609
00:22:03,989 --> 00:22:05,243
And the really weird
thing, and I'll just

610
00:22:05,285 --> 00:22:06,425
say a few more
things about Christian

611
00:22:06,425 --> 00:22:07,836
nationalism, then
I want to leave it

612
00:22:07,878 --> 00:22:09,328
and get to Newhouse,
I get to Hunter.

613
00:22:10,228 --> 00:22:11,172
One of the really
weird things

614
00:22:11,214 --> 00:22:12,197
about Christian
nationalism is,

615
00:22:12,597 --> 00:22:14,444
its roots are in
something that was

616
00:22:14,486 --> 00:22:16,268
called integralism
or integralism,

617
00:22:16,301 --> 00:22:17,235
however you want
to pronounce it.

618
00:22:17,269 --> 00:22:17,969
It goes both ways.

619
00:22:18,837 --> 00:22:20,654
Integralism is an
actual teaching

620
00:22:20,696 --> 00:22:22,607
that was being
fostered by a lot of

621
00:22:22,607 --> 00:22:23,275
Roman Catholics.

622
00:22:23,275 --> 00:22:25,348
And it's the idea
that the world is only

623
00:22:25,390 --> 00:22:27,245
right when the
church is running it.

624
00:22:27,646 --> 00:22:31,016
And it's that
blatantly over the top,

625
00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:32,426
the church should
be running the

626
00:22:32,468 --> 00:22:33,652
show, just like in
the Middle Ages.

627
00:22:33,819 --> 00:22:35,153
That's what integralism wants.

628
00:22:35,487 --> 00:22:37,856
And integralism says, that's
what we need to get back to.

629
00:22:38,323 --> 00:22:40,783
And frankly, every
Roman Catholic who

630
00:22:40,825 --> 00:22:43,061
knows this theology
believes that.

631
00:22:43,929 --> 00:22:45,558
Because that's
the basic premise

632
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:46,965
of Roman Catholic theology.

633
00:22:47,065 --> 00:22:49,334
Who is the final ultimate
authority in the world?

634
00:22:50,268 --> 00:22:51,103
Absolutely the Pope.

635
00:22:51,470 --> 00:22:53,071
They have never
changed their mind on that.

636
00:22:53,071 --> 00:22:54,005
It's absolutely the case.

637
00:22:54,573 --> 00:22:56,428
And he might be
a nice guy who

638
00:22:56,470 --> 00:22:58,610
says weird things
cuz he's Francis.

639
00:22:59,111 --> 00:23:05,851
But he will act like, no,
I'm just the church's leader.

640
00:23:06,051 --> 00:23:08,166
But in the
theology, he's the de

641
00:23:08,208 --> 00:23:10,689
facto real deal,
and they all know it.

642
00:23:10,756 --> 00:23:12,033
And everybody
else is just too

643
00:23:12,075 --> 00:23:13,392
dumb to realize
he's in charge.

644
00:23:13,992 --> 00:23:15,127
That's how Rome functions.

645
00:23:15,660 --> 00:23:16,828
And so, I'll give
you just a second.

646
00:23:17,129 --> 00:23:19,264
And so, this is the reality.

647
00:23:19,598 --> 00:23:21,289
So, integralism has
always functioned

648
00:23:21,331 --> 00:23:22,834
with the idea that
we need to get

649
00:23:22,834 --> 00:23:24,803
the church back in the center.

650
00:23:25,604 --> 00:23:27,606
But see, Newhouse
himself is no fan of this.

651
00:23:28,173 --> 00:23:28,974
He's Roman Catholic.

652
00:23:29,107 --> 00:23:30,475
He is not a fan of this.

653
00:23:30,475 --> 00:23:32,035
And he's probably
writing this section

654
00:23:32,077 --> 00:23:33,512
here against some
people in his own

655
00:23:33,512 --> 00:23:36,047
circles who are kind of
advocating these things.

656
00:23:36,081 --> 00:23:37,315
He doesn't want that.

657
00:23:37,516 --> 00:23:40,118
And they sometimes think
he's their ally, but he's not.

658
00:23:40,318 --> 00:23:42,433
Because he's Lutheran
enough to know

659
00:23:42,475 --> 00:23:44,456
that's not the
way it should work.

660
00:23:44,756 --> 00:23:48,026
Because the church
cannot run the show here,

661
00:23:48,126 --> 00:23:51,463
not until the New
Jerusalem, the Eschaton.

662
00:23:51,463 --> 00:23:54,199
Now, fine, but not until.

663
00:23:54,699 --> 00:23:56,301
And he's exactly
right about this.

664
00:23:56,535 --> 00:24:00,906
This is why we need to be very
tempered on our enthusiasm for

665
00:24:00,906 --> 00:24:01,773
Christian nationalism.

666
00:24:02,007 --> 00:24:03,275
Don't get on that bandwagon.

667
00:24:03,642 --> 00:24:07,913
But on the same token, don't
be shouted into silence and

668
00:24:07,913 --> 00:24:09,414
feel like you can't get
involved in the world.

669
00:24:09,548 --> 00:24:11,716
I want you involved
in the world.

670
00:24:12,050 --> 00:24:13,665
If anything you
take away from this

671
00:24:13,707 --> 00:24:15,454
session today, this
whole thing today,

672
00:24:15,554 --> 00:24:17,086
is you should be
saying, I need to

673
00:24:17,128 --> 00:24:18,924
think about what
my responsibility is in

674
00:24:18,924 --> 00:24:20,761
the world, cuz I
am a Christian who

675
00:24:20,803 --> 00:24:22,627
needs to serve the
world around me.

676
00:24:22,928 --> 00:24:25,063
I need to do it how I
vote, how I talk, what I do.

677
00:24:25,464 --> 00:24:26,644
The yard signs I
stick on my yard,

678
00:24:26,686 --> 00:24:27,732
whatever I think
is important,

679
00:24:27,966 --> 00:24:29,895
I should be
engaged in the civil

680
00:24:29,937 --> 00:24:32,204
realm for the sake
of the civil realm.

681
00:24:32,571 --> 00:24:34,394
Don't feel like
you're being silenced,

682
00:24:34,436 --> 00:24:36,107
cuz that's not the
goal here, okay?

683
00:24:36,908 --> 00:24:37,275
All right.

684
00:24:48,553 --> 00:24:55,627
Yeah, so you've got Sharia
law being enforced, and

685
00:24:55,627 --> 00:24:59,297
this is the thing, Islam,
yeah, it's built that way.

686
00:24:59,431 --> 00:25:00,565
That's how they want to work.

687
00:25:02,133 --> 00:25:04,457
No, no, and so the
Sharia law is the

688
00:25:04,499 --> 00:25:06,671
way that they're
all wanting this.

689
00:25:06,771 --> 00:25:07,272
And the idea that nobody
wants to be a Christian,

690
00:25:07,272 --> 00:25:10,108
we're just benign, we're just
Muslims who like to worship.

691
00:25:10,342 --> 00:25:12,043
No, that's all built in.

692
00:25:12,444 --> 00:25:14,579
And so is that an example of
things getting out of whack?

693
00:25:14,713 --> 00:25:15,647
Yes, exactly.

694
00:25:16,014 --> 00:25:18,950
Religion becomes the
de facto dominant thing.

695
00:25:19,518 --> 00:25:20,646
And with Christians,
well, we're

696
00:25:20,688 --> 00:25:21,820
much nicer cuz
we're Christians.

697
00:25:21,987 --> 00:25:23,154
Yeah, but you're
still missing the point.

698
00:25:23,522 --> 00:25:27,192
The point is we're living this
side of Christ's return, and

699
00:25:27,192 --> 00:25:29,394
until then, keep
things distinct.

700
00:25:30,328 --> 00:25:31,721
That's the critical Lutheran

701
00:25:31,763 --> 00:25:33,965
contribution, and
we can't let go of that.

702
00:25:35,033 --> 00:25:35,200
Okay?

703
00:25:35,867 --> 00:25:36,968
Good, go ahead, Stefan.

704
00:25:46,044 --> 00:25:46,478
Yep.

705
00:25:56,521 --> 00:25:59,024
This is a Christian
prince who's saying,

706
00:25:59,724 --> 00:26:01,493
excuse me, I think it's really

707
00:26:01,493 --> 00:26:03,094
good that we have a Christian
church that's healthy and

708
00:26:03,094 --> 00:26:05,130
strong, and I want the
gospel being taught.

709
00:26:05,130 --> 00:26:06,662
So you're asking
the question about

710
00:26:06,704 --> 00:26:08,233
Luther's first
virtue of the prince

711
00:26:08,767 --> 00:26:10,231
would be to support
the work of the

712
00:26:10,273 --> 00:26:11,736
church, and does
that violate this?

713
00:26:12,103 --> 00:26:13,601
In Luther's mind,
it doesn't violate

714
00:26:13,643 --> 00:26:15,140
it at all because
this is the prince

715
00:26:15,674 --> 00:26:18,643
as prince saying it's good for
my people to have the truth.

716
00:26:18,643 --> 00:26:20,604
But he's not letting
the church come in

717
00:26:20,646 --> 00:26:22,547
and tell him how
to fight the Turks or

718
00:26:22,547 --> 00:26:24,099
how to run the
community chest

719
00:26:24,141 --> 00:26:25,784
or whatever else
he's got to do.

720
00:26:26,051 --> 00:26:28,588
He's doing that
as he sees as the

721
00:26:28,630 --> 00:26:31,056
prince that needs
to be done and

722
00:26:31,056 --> 00:26:32,424
following his own direction.

723
00:26:32,424 --> 00:26:34,392
So that would be the
distinction, I would say.

724
00:26:34,392 --> 00:26:35,293
Yep, good.

725
00:26:36,995 --> 00:26:37,462
Sorry.

726
00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:38,930
Okay, good?

727
00:26:39,931 --> 00:26:41,866
All right, so that's Newhouse.

728
00:26:42,067 --> 00:26:43,521
And I think,
like I said, these

729
00:26:43,563 --> 00:26:45,103
are some really
helpful insights.

730
00:26:45,637 --> 00:26:47,946
And maybe it
sheds just a little

731
00:26:47,988 --> 00:26:50,408
bit of light for
you on this whole

732
00:26:50,408 --> 00:26:53,345
Christian nationalism thing
and how people react to this.

733
00:26:53,378 --> 00:26:55,485
And I hear it's such
a new term, and

734
00:26:55,527 --> 00:26:57,849
people are still
kind of sorting it out.

735
00:26:58,149 --> 00:26:59,840
And so some
Christians are embracing

736
00:26:59,882 --> 00:27:01,753
it, others are running
away from it, and

737
00:27:01,753 --> 00:27:04,098
people who are
wanting the church to be

738
00:27:04,140 --> 00:27:06,524
more involved are
confused why we're not

739
00:27:06,524 --> 00:27:08,285
embracing it, so
I just want to be

740
00:27:08,327 --> 00:27:10,128
clear on where
the problems lie and

741
00:27:10,128 --> 00:27:12,260
why you should be
wary of this, but yet also

742
00:27:12,302 --> 00:27:14,232
still sympathetic to
many of the causes.

743
00:27:14,666 --> 00:27:17,306
See, a great example
is this amendment

744
00:27:17,348 --> 00:27:20,372
three that's on our
ballot here in Missouri.

745
00:27:20,639 --> 00:27:22,004
If you're in
Missouri, and some

746
00:27:22,046 --> 00:27:23,408
of you aren't
from around here,

747
00:27:23,441 --> 00:27:24,771
because I've
talked to a few of

748
00:27:24,813 --> 00:27:26,311
you who have come
in from far away,

749
00:27:26,311 --> 00:27:27,078
which is remarkable.

750
00:27:27,646 --> 00:27:30,235
But so three is an
amendment to change the

751
00:27:30,277 --> 00:27:32,784
constitution to allow
abortion on demand,

752
00:27:32,784 --> 00:27:35,020
basically, and a
woman's right to choose.

753
00:27:35,286 --> 00:27:36,297
Like all these
states are doing

754
00:27:36,339 --> 00:27:37,389
this, so Missouri's
got its own,

755
00:27:37,489 --> 00:27:38,089
it's on the ballot.

756
00:27:38,623 --> 00:27:41,699
And so is that a
bad thing for people

757
00:27:41,741 --> 00:27:44,529
to have that right
to kill babies?

758
00:27:44,663 --> 00:27:45,730
Yeah, that's a bad thing.

759
00:27:45,797 --> 00:27:47,529
And the church
should be absolutely

760
00:27:47,571 --> 00:27:48,900
opposed to amendment three.

761
00:27:49,167 --> 00:27:51,436
And can we tell people
that from the pulpit?

762
00:27:52,804 --> 00:27:54,655
Yes, okay, so
you're still a little

763
00:27:54,697 --> 00:27:56,641
hesitant, I haven't
gotten there yet.

764
00:27:56,641 --> 00:27:59,036
You see, if we think
about the church

765
00:27:59,078 --> 00:28:01,513
should be teaching
the state how to be

766
00:28:01,513 --> 00:28:03,790
the state, can we
teach our people

767
00:28:03,832 --> 00:28:05,950
how to think
about civil things?

768
00:28:06,351 --> 00:28:08,579
Yeah, and it's
not fair for me to

769
00:28:08,621 --> 00:28:10,755
ask you to answer
that question.

770
00:28:10,855 --> 00:28:12,090
I didn't teach you
about that this morning.

771
00:28:12,290 --> 00:28:14,516
But in my book, I
make a case that

772
00:28:14,558 --> 00:28:16,695
do politics belong
in the pulpit?

773
00:28:17,028 --> 00:28:18,430
And my answer is absolutely.

774
00:28:19,264 --> 00:28:20,212
You say, well,
wait a minute, we're

775
00:28:20,254 --> 00:28:21,132
supposed to be
doing the gospel.

776
00:28:21,332 --> 00:28:22,512
But we're also
supposed to be teaching

777
00:28:22,554 --> 00:28:23,868
people what it means
to live in the world.

778
00:28:24,536 --> 00:28:27,105
And that's teaching about
God's will for the world.

779
00:28:27,472 --> 00:28:29,079
And so talking about
things that matter

780
00:28:29,121 --> 00:28:30,809
from the pulpit, it's
always a good idea.

781
00:28:31,309 --> 00:28:31,980
People care about their

782
00:28:32,022 --> 00:28:33,011
families, they
care about work,

783
00:28:33,144 --> 00:28:34,112
talk about that in the pulpit.

784
00:28:34,245 --> 00:28:35,213
They care about politics.

785
00:28:36,414 --> 00:28:37,682
People I know care about it.

786
00:28:37,849 --> 00:28:39,084
So maybe we
should talk about that.

787
00:28:39,517 --> 00:28:41,586
And so it's not
like it's out of place.

788
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:42,940
We just have to be careful it

789
00:28:42,982 --> 00:28:44,189
doesn't overwhelm
everything and

790
00:28:44,189 --> 00:28:45,890
we don't get
things out of whack.

791
00:28:46,091 --> 00:28:48,970
So can we tell people
God has a way of

792
00:28:49,012 --> 00:28:51,930
thinking about our
position X, Y, or Z?

793
00:28:52,497 --> 00:28:52,897
Absolutely.

794
00:28:53,431 --> 00:28:55,700
And is there a God way
of thinking about abortion?

795
00:28:56,634 --> 00:28:57,635
Yes, there is.

796
00:28:58,036 --> 00:28:59,095
And if people get
squeamish on this

797
00:28:59,137 --> 00:29:00,205
and think, well,
there's two sides.

798
00:29:00,472 --> 00:29:02,974
There are not two
Christian sides to this, okay?

799
00:29:03,208 --> 00:29:04,476
You're killing or you're not.

800
00:29:04,976 --> 00:29:09,147
And a woman's right to choose
is not a Christian idea, okay?

801
00:29:09,147 --> 00:29:11,341
The idea of
autonomous rights, my

802
00:29:11,383 --> 00:29:13,485
body, it's not a
Christian idea.

803
00:29:14,352 --> 00:29:16,110
And this gets
into a whole other

804
00:29:16,152 --> 00:29:18,223
discussion about
rights and where this

805
00:29:18,223 --> 00:29:20,029
fits, but the idea
that somehow I

806
00:29:20,071 --> 00:29:22,026
have inherent rights
to my own body.

807
00:29:22,026 --> 00:29:23,428
That's not a Christian idea.

808
00:29:24,195 --> 00:29:26,731
That's a Jeffersonian
enlightenment kind of idea.

809
00:29:27,265 --> 00:29:29,013
And it resonates
with a lot of people,

810
00:29:29,055 --> 00:29:30,568
but it's not a
Christian thought.

811
00:29:30,969 --> 00:29:34,839
And so Christianity would
say clearly abortion is wrong.

812
00:29:35,173 --> 00:29:36,407
Euthanasia is wrong.

813
00:29:36,541 --> 00:29:38,643
Having laws that allow
this is not a good idea.

814
00:29:38,843 --> 00:29:40,612
Can we legislate
morality by forbidding this?

815
00:29:40,912 --> 00:29:41,946
Yeah, we can do that.

816
00:29:42,113 --> 00:29:45,250
And we can stop what is wrong
and we should vote for that.

817
00:29:45,383 --> 00:29:47,752
So should Christians be
voting against Amendment 3?

818
00:29:48,153 --> 00:29:48,586
Absolutely.

819
00:29:48,820 --> 00:29:49,839
And can the church be telling

820
00:29:49,881 --> 00:29:51,122
people they should
be doing that?

821
00:29:51,122 --> 00:29:53,191
I think we should,
frankly, okay?

822
00:29:53,525 --> 00:29:54,325
We can do that.

823
00:29:54,726 --> 00:29:56,717
Now, having said
that, does that mean

824
00:29:56,759 --> 00:29:58,630
then the goal is
to have the church

825
00:29:59,397 --> 00:30:00,198
take over everything?

826
00:30:00,465 --> 00:30:01,766
No, no.

827
00:30:02,066 --> 00:30:03,401
See, there's a
difference here.

828
00:30:03,468 --> 00:30:05,251
That's why we
can be active, we

829
00:30:05,293 --> 00:30:07,172
can say things,
we can speak, but

830
00:30:07,172 --> 00:30:08,890
we're not doing it in
a way that says, and

831
00:30:08,932 --> 00:30:10,608
the goal is to take
over the whole thing.

832
00:30:10,875 --> 00:30:12,009
And that we can impose

833
00:30:12,051 --> 00:30:13,812
Christian morality
on everybody.

834
00:30:14,445 --> 00:30:16,014
I want the whole
world to be Christian.

835
00:30:16,314 --> 00:30:18,883
I want morality to be
based on God's truth.

836
00:30:19,117 --> 00:30:20,285
No doubt about that.

837
00:30:20,285 --> 00:30:21,955
But we also have
to recognize that we

838
00:30:21,997 --> 00:30:23,888
don't do this with
the force of the sword.

839
00:30:24,489 --> 00:30:26,276
And we also have
to be careful that

840
00:30:26,318 --> 00:30:27,892
we don't confuse
the church and

841
00:30:27,892 --> 00:30:29,804
the state in a way
that starts to run

842
00:30:29,846 --> 00:30:31,696
them together
before Christ returns.

843
00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:32,831
We gotta be careful here.

844
00:30:33,565 --> 00:30:33,932
All right?

845
00:30:34,632 --> 00:30:35,667
Enough on that for now.

846
00:30:36,067 --> 00:30:36,301
Trevor.

847
00:30:36,768 --> 00:30:38,653
Would you also
think that the church

848
00:30:38,695 --> 00:30:40,672
is being made to be
more conservative?

849
00:30:41,539 --> 00:30:45,210
Or is there a certain platform
that you might want to take?

850
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:48,379
Or is it just three
digits, like an inch?

851
00:30:48,947 --> 00:30:54,986
Yeah, as a rule,
it's a good idea for

852
00:30:54,986 --> 00:30:56,681
the church not
to get involved in

853
00:30:56,723 --> 00:30:58,356
endorsing particular
candidates.

854
00:30:58,823 --> 00:31:00,811
And I would say,
if we're gonna

855
00:31:00,853 --> 00:31:02,627
be, yeah, I'll just go here.

856
00:31:03,194 --> 00:31:05,638
If the church is
gonna be faithful to

857
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,099
following Christ,
we should recognize

858
00:31:08,099 --> 00:31:10,468
that Republican Party and

859
00:31:10,468 --> 00:31:11,883
Democratic Party
both have issues

860
00:31:11,925 --> 00:31:13,338
that we would
have problems with.

861
00:31:13,771 --> 00:31:15,258
And if you think
that you can just

862
00:31:15,300 --> 00:31:16,608
be lockstep
with either party,

863
00:31:16,608 --> 00:31:18,439
I don't think you're
really paying attention

864
00:31:18,481 --> 00:31:19,978
to their platforms
very carefully or

865
00:31:19,978 --> 00:31:21,713
understand your Christian
confession very well.

866
00:31:22,146 --> 00:31:24,610
Cuz there are
concerns that when the

867
00:31:24,652 --> 00:31:26,885
Republican Party
platform now and

868
00:31:26,885 --> 00:31:29,387
the Democratic, no,
so then what do you do?

869
00:31:29,687 --> 00:31:31,649
Well, you find your
way through it and

870
00:31:31,691 --> 00:31:33,591
you vote for the
least objectionable,

871
00:31:34,125 --> 00:31:35,159
the least lesser evil.

872
00:31:35,460 --> 00:31:36,582
Francis said
that, and that was

873
00:31:36,624 --> 00:31:37,896
one of the better
things he'd said.

874
00:31:38,563 --> 00:31:40,265
Americans need to
vote for the less evil.

875
00:31:40,632 --> 00:31:41,843
And I think that's not half

876
00:31:41,885 --> 00:31:43,368
bad as we operate
in the world.

877
00:31:43,534 --> 00:31:45,303
We can talk more
about that if you want to.

878
00:31:45,303 --> 00:31:48,339
But the idea of then
endorsing a candidate or

879
00:31:48,339 --> 00:31:50,875
even a party I think
becomes problematic.

880
00:31:50,875 --> 00:31:53,311
But telling people
that there are priorities.

881
00:31:53,811 --> 00:31:55,172
So in other words,
while there are things

882
00:31:55,214 --> 00:31:56,481
I find objectionable
on the Republican

883
00:31:56,481 --> 00:31:58,142
platform, I find
objectionable on the

884
00:31:58,184 --> 00:31:59,884
Democratic platform,
when I weigh them

885
00:31:59,884 --> 00:32:02,403
out, I think probably
the concerns I have

886
00:32:02,445 --> 00:32:04,822
with abortion issues
and women's rights

887
00:32:04,822 --> 00:32:07,740
and gender issues,
transgender issues and

888
00:32:07,782 --> 00:32:10,528
transsexual issues
are more significant

889
00:32:10,528 --> 00:32:12,210
even than my
concerns here, which are

890
00:32:12,252 --> 00:32:14,065
probably on the lines
of immigration and

891
00:32:14,065 --> 00:32:15,259
caring for the
creation in the

892
00:32:15,301 --> 00:32:16,534
right ways,
that kind of stuff.

893
00:32:16,834 --> 00:32:18,737
So they're both
concerns, but you have

894
00:32:18,779 --> 00:32:20,772
to start weighing
which one weighs more,

895
00:32:21,072 --> 00:32:22,073
which one's the more pressing.

896
00:32:22,774 --> 00:32:24,934
And I wrote this
in my book in 2017,

897
00:32:24,976 --> 00:32:26,878
I said, if we're
killing babies,

898
00:32:27,245 --> 00:32:28,046
that's kind of pressing.

899
00:32:28,313 --> 00:32:29,311
And it kind of takes

900
00:32:29,353 --> 00:32:31,015
precedence over
saving animals.

901
00:32:31,716 --> 00:32:33,797
As much as I care
about animals and

902
00:32:33,839 --> 00:32:36,254
natural wildlife,
killing babies is a big

903
00:32:36,254 --> 00:32:38,389
deal, and until we
can deal with that,

904
00:32:38,523 --> 00:32:41,192
maybe we have to become
a one issue voter for a while.

905
00:32:41,192 --> 00:32:44,195
So, but yeah, I'd be reluctant
to endorse candidates.

906
00:32:44,662 --> 00:32:46,631
I think endorsing policies or

907
00:32:46,631 --> 00:32:48,533
alerting people to
what the ramifications

908
00:32:48,575 --> 00:32:50,101
of our policies
are, that's fine.

909
00:32:50,768 --> 00:32:52,170
Yeah, okay, yep.

910
00:32:52,170 --> 00:33:01,980
So trying to get,
watching these events.

911
00:33:01,980 --> 00:33:02,345
I had an opinion on that, but

912
00:33:02,387 --> 00:33:02,847
it shouldn't be
a bad thing, but

913
00:33:02,847 --> 00:33:08,987
not in the form of the case
of pronouncing indexes, but

914
00:33:08,987 --> 00:33:14,692
how can certain political
argument gamma charges,

915
00:33:14,692 --> 00:33:15,093
just this case, it
doesn't feel right.

916
00:33:15,093 --> 00:33:21,265
Really it's sort of kind
of Sue's media badges,

917
00:33:21,265 --> 00:33:22,166
a Dark Cat that is
probably lid round and

918
00:33:22,166 --> 00:33:22,934
Right.

919
00:33:23,301 --> 00:33:26,571
Where you say, we can do this,
and what's there to do to act?

920
00:33:26,838 --> 00:33:28,673
And you can take that
from the head of the law,

921
00:33:28,973 --> 00:33:29,774
and you're the person.

922
00:33:30,174 --> 00:33:30,441
All right.

923
00:33:30,708 --> 00:33:32,210
This is exactly
where we're going

924
00:33:32,210 --> 00:33:33,378
to be going with
some more of this,

925
00:33:33,444 --> 00:33:35,380
is the question of
the witness you give.

926
00:33:35,913 --> 00:33:37,015
And so you're
asking the question,

927
00:33:37,548 --> 00:33:41,219
so who's the audience when I'm
trying to teach, and guide,

928
00:33:41,386 --> 00:33:42,186
and give direction?

929
00:33:42,487 --> 00:33:43,788
And I would say
the audience would

930
00:33:43,788 --> 00:33:45,423
be the Christian community.

931
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:46,591
So they're thinking right.

932
00:33:47,191 --> 00:33:50,795
And I don't think we should
ever take for granted, well,

933
00:33:50,795 --> 00:33:52,563
everybody in church knows
how to think about stuff.

934
00:33:52,797 --> 00:33:53,264
No, they don't.

935
00:33:53,965 --> 00:33:55,800
And the pastor should
not take for granted

936
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,069
that his people are thinking
right about political things.

937
00:33:58,369 --> 00:33:59,413
And he might
think, I shouldn't

938
00:33:59,455 --> 00:34:00,505
wait into the
political avenue.

939
00:34:00,571 --> 00:34:01,672
I think you need
to, because I think

940
00:34:01,672 --> 00:34:04,108
you need to say, think twice
about what's going on here.

941
00:34:05,109 --> 00:34:07,812
And one of my adages,
too, is when you vote,

942
00:34:07,979 --> 00:34:09,547
you never vote for
what's good for you.

943
00:34:10,181 --> 00:34:11,449
You vote for what's
good for your neighbor.

944
00:34:12,016 --> 00:34:13,184
And so you should
be asking yourself,

945
00:34:13,551 --> 00:34:14,564
who's the candidate who's

946
00:34:14,606 --> 00:34:15,953
going to best
serve my neighbor

947
00:34:15,953 --> 00:34:18,222
by bringing them more
nearly into God's justice?

948
00:34:18,256 --> 00:34:19,690
Those are the kinds of
questions we should ask.

949
00:34:19,690 --> 00:34:23,294
So anyway, my audience
would be the church.

950
00:34:23,461 --> 00:34:26,364
Your concern is, if we try
to start telling the world how

951
00:34:26,364 --> 00:34:28,933
they should operate, that
can actually alienate them

952
00:34:28,933 --> 00:34:31,436
from hearing our message, and
we actually maybe compromise

953
00:34:31,436 --> 00:34:31,903
our witness.

954
00:34:32,236 --> 00:34:33,004
That's fair.

955
00:34:33,504 --> 00:34:35,706
But I would say, I'm willing
to bet the world probably

956
00:34:35,706 --> 00:34:37,308
kind of knows what we think
about most of these things

957
00:34:37,308 --> 00:34:37,708
anyway.

958
00:34:38,209 --> 00:34:39,479
And they probably
have a pretty

959
00:34:39,521 --> 00:34:40,545
good idea where we stand.

960
00:34:41,012 --> 00:34:44,749
But for a Christian
church or a pastor

961
00:34:44,749 --> 00:34:47,452
to be filling his yard full
of candidate yard signs,

962
00:34:47,452 --> 00:34:49,053
maybe not the best idea.

963
00:34:50,121 --> 00:34:51,289
I have a vote no on three.

964
00:34:51,689 --> 00:34:53,691
Or, well, yeah, maybe
vote no on three.

965
00:34:53,791 --> 00:34:54,192
I don't know.

966
00:34:54,625 --> 00:34:57,462
See, to me, that's an
issue of, do they need to be,

967
00:34:58,196 --> 00:35:00,164
we have a conversation
with my neighbors about this.

968
00:35:00,231 --> 00:35:01,632
Maybe that's better
than putting the yard sign.

969
00:35:02,033 --> 00:35:03,240
And I'm not
convinced yard signs

970
00:35:03,282 --> 00:35:04,302
make much difference anyway

971
00:35:04,302 --> 00:35:07,705
besides just a virtue
signal of how cool you are.

972
00:35:08,139 --> 00:35:11,509
And so I'm not a big
fan of them, to be honest.

973
00:35:13,010 --> 00:35:13,044
Yep.

974
00:35:13,044 --> 00:35:14,846
I was just wondering,
my other argument against

975
00:35:14,846 --> 00:35:16,714
Christian Nationalism, I
was wondering if you had

976
00:35:16,714 --> 00:35:17,748
to go to the kingdom too.

977
00:35:18,015 --> 00:35:18,349
He did.

978
00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:21,085
Yeah, my kingdom is not
of this world, very clear.

979
00:35:21,319 --> 00:35:23,221
This is another
foundational, like I said,

980
00:35:23,287 --> 00:35:23,988
I'm not doing the Bible.

981
00:35:24,155 --> 00:35:25,156
I'm a systematics guy.

982
00:35:25,389 --> 00:35:28,126
But yes, Jesus is
very clear on this.

983
00:35:28,192 --> 00:35:29,193
My kingdom is
not of this world.

984
00:35:29,227 --> 00:35:31,195
That's part of the scriptural
foundation for where we are.

985
00:35:31,395 --> 00:35:32,196
Yep, absolutely.

986
00:35:32,964 --> 00:35:33,831
All right, good.

987
00:35:34,866 --> 00:35:38,903
OK, now, so I've got some
good amount of time here.

988
00:35:38,970 --> 00:35:41,239
I want to get into this guy
named James Davison Hunter.

989
00:35:41,772 --> 00:35:43,341
And how many of
you have heard of him?

990
00:35:43,474 --> 00:35:43,774
Anybody?

991
00:35:44,408 --> 00:35:45,209
James Davison Hunter?

992
00:35:45,476 --> 00:35:47,278
OK, a couple of
you, maybe a little bit.

993
00:35:48,179 --> 00:35:53,151
Hunter is a, he's
not a theologian.

994
00:35:53,284 --> 00:35:55,486
He's a cultural sociologist.

995
00:35:56,154 --> 00:36:00,391
And in other words, he
studies big cultural movements

996
00:36:00,391 --> 00:36:02,293
and how things work,
how people operate.

997
00:36:03,227 --> 00:36:05,196
His teacher was Peter Berger.

998
00:36:05,396 --> 00:36:06,297
And have you
heard of that name?

999
00:36:06,831 --> 00:36:09,033
So Peter Berger was
a Lutheran sociologist

1000
00:36:09,033 --> 00:36:12,303
who did cultural sociology,
anthropology kinds of things.

1001
00:36:12,670 --> 00:36:14,172
So Berger taught Hunter.

1002
00:36:14,572 --> 00:36:16,207
And Hunter's been
at University of Virginia

1003
00:36:17,208 --> 00:36:19,343
and has written several books.

1004
00:36:19,410 --> 00:36:22,046
One of his earliest books was
called The Death of Character

1005
00:36:22,547 --> 00:36:24,916
and had a big
influence on my thinking.

1006
00:36:25,049 --> 00:36:26,984
He is also the one, how
many of you have heard of

1007
00:36:26,984 --> 00:36:27,785
Culture Wars?

1008
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,521
Yeah, he coined the term.

1009
00:36:30,821 --> 00:36:31,622
That's his term.

1010
00:36:31,856 --> 00:36:32,924
And it's been picked up on,

1011
00:36:33,024 --> 00:36:34,091
everybody uses it
all over the place.

1012
00:36:34,325 --> 00:36:35,826
He's the one who
used that term first,

1013
00:36:35,826 --> 00:36:37,094
the idea of culture wars.

1014
00:36:37,295 --> 00:36:38,396
So he kind of started that.

1015
00:36:39,096 --> 00:36:40,431
He's written several books.

1016
00:36:40,698 --> 00:36:42,967
I always find him
to be very rewarding.

1017
00:36:43,668 --> 00:36:45,203
His writing is very careful.

1018
00:36:45,469 --> 00:36:47,471
His research is remarkable.

1019
00:36:47,905 --> 00:36:50,174
He's a good social scientist.

1020
00:36:50,308 --> 00:36:52,043
He does deep
digging into stuff,

1021
00:36:52,310 --> 00:36:53,778
has foundations
for what he says,

1022
00:36:54,011 --> 00:36:55,713
offers his support
for what he's arguing,

1023
00:36:55,846 --> 00:36:56,781
and does a great job.

1024
00:36:57,215 --> 00:36:58,182
So a couple books here.

1025
00:36:58,382 --> 00:37:01,352
This one he wrote in 2010
called To Change the World.

1026
00:37:02,253 --> 00:37:03,621
That's a very good book.

1027
00:37:03,621 --> 00:37:05,756
And this one's more
overtly Christian.

1028
00:37:06,190 --> 00:37:08,492
And he's getting into kind
of just sort of the reality

1029
00:37:08,492 --> 00:37:10,528
of what's going on
in the world today

1030
00:37:10,528 --> 00:37:11,229
in which we're living.

1031
00:37:11,896 --> 00:37:14,398
And in this book,
he has a really nice,

1032
00:37:14,899 --> 00:37:17,134
he has several
sections in here

1033
00:37:17,134 --> 00:37:18,869
as he's working
through his argument

1034
00:37:18,869 --> 00:37:21,505
about what would actually make
a difference in the world,

1035
00:37:21,606 --> 00:37:22,907
what brings things to change.

1036
00:37:23,374 --> 00:37:27,211
And in this book, he
has a kind of a survey

1037
00:37:27,211 --> 00:37:28,346
of what he would say,

1038
00:37:28,613 --> 00:37:31,048
here's what American
Christianity looks like

1039
00:37:31,048 --> 00:37:32,416
in the early 21st century.

1040
00:37:32,416 --> 00:37:35,987
And he describes in this
book three different ways

1041
00:37:35,987 --> 00:37:38,189
that people are thinking about

1042
00:37:38,189 --> 00:37:39,156
what it means to be Christian.

1043
00:37:39,590 --> 00:37:41,726
And so these three
categories are for him,

1044
00:37:42,126 --> 00:37:45,296
the first one is what he
calls the Christian right.

1045
00:37:47,198 --> 00:37:49,934
And the Christian right
are people who believe

1046
00:37:49,934 --> 00:37:51,936
that America is
a Christian nation,

1047
00:37:52,169 --> 00:37:53,137
has Christian foundation,

1048
00:37:53,738 --> 00:37:59,377
that we are being taken
over by godless pagan liberals

1049
00:37:59,377 --> 00:38:01,646
who are ruining our country

1050
00:38:01,646 --> 00:38:05,850
and are bringing a immoral
foundation into the forefront

1051
00:38:05,850 --> 00:38:07,585
and who are now
sanctioning things

1052
00:38:07,585 --> 00:38:08,853
that we used to be ashamed of.

1053
00:38:09,253 --> 00:38:12,523
And this is horrible
and they feel displaced.

1054
00:38:12,657 --> 00:38:14,892
They feel like they're
being pushed out

1055
00:38:14,892 --> 00:38:16,694
of their position
of privilege.

1056
00:38:16,694 --> 00:38:18,729
They feel like they
no longer matter.

1057
00:38:18,896 --> 00:38:22,166
They feel like somebody's
taken their country from them

1058
00:38:22,166 --> 00:38:24,168
and they can't figure
out what to do about it.

1059
00:38:24,468 --> 00:38:29,106
And they're upset and
concerned and ticked off.

1060
00:38:29,106 --> 00:38:31,575
And they wanna do
something about it.

1061
00:38:32,176 --> 00:38:32,943
Okay, sound familiar?

1062
00:38:34,345 --> 00:38:34,745
Yeah.

1063
00:38:34,745 --> 00:38:36,847
What's that phrase before,
he's going down with you?

1064
00:38:36,947 --> 00:38:37,315
Which one?

1065
00:38:37,648 --> 00:38:38,416
The Christian right.

1066
00:38:39,717 --> 00:38:41,585
He didn't coin that, that's
been around for a long time.

1067
00:38:41,819 --> 00:38:42,186
Yeah, no.

1068
00:38:42,553 --> 00:38:44,989
And so this is the first
group he talks about.

1069
00:38:45,356 --> 00:38:48,592
And one of the key words he
uses to describe these people

1070
00:38:51,062 --> 00:38:53,364
is resentment,
it's a French word.

1071
00:38:53,798 --> 00:38:55,866
And I'll do it the French
way, the resentment.

1072
00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:57,768
And so it's more
than resentment.

1073
00:38:58,736 --> 00:39:02,073
It's the idea that somebody
has done me wrong

1074
00:39:02,606 --> 00:39:05,843
and I'm ticked off and I'm
gonna do something about it.

1075
00:39:06,644 --> 00:39:08,179
Okay, that's resentimal.

1076
00:39:08,913 --> 00:39:10,681
And his argument
is the Christian right

1077
00:39:10,681 --> 00:39:13,284
is defined by this.

1078
00:39:13,784 --> 00:39:15,486
And so this is where you
start getting the kind of,

1079
00:39:15,653 --> 00:39:16,854
we're gonna do
something about it.

1080
00:39:17,088 --> 00:39:20,491
And the moral majority way
back in the late 20th century

1081
00:39:20,491 --> 00:39:22,126
with Jerry Falwell,
you remember that?

1082
00:39:22,259 --> 00:39:23,695
This is the first
kind of, hey,

1083
00:39:23,737 --> 00:39:25,029
we don't like the direction,

1084
00:39:25,129 --> 00:39:26,263
we're gonna do
something about it

1085
00:39:26,263 --> 00:39:27,465
and we're gonna
get people elected

1086
00:39:27,465 --> 00:39:29,433
and they got Reagan
elected, there.

1087
00:39:30,134 --> 00:39:31,369
See, we did
something about it.

1088
00:39:31,569 --> 00:39:33,604
But then it didn't stick.

1089
00:39:34,238 --> 00:39:37,408
Things that, you know,
the liberals just kept going

1090
00:39:37,408 --> 00:39:39,643
and they got power again
and then there was Clinton

1091
00:39:39,643 --> 00:39:42,246
and then there was Obama
and everybody's like, ah.

1092
00:39:42,646 --> 00:39:46,884
And so the Christian
right feels absolutely upset

1093
00:39:46,884 --> 00:39:49,453
and they want things
fixed and they want it

1094
00:39:49,453 --> 00:39:50,454
the way it's supposed to be.

1095
00:39:50,621 --> 00:39:51,455
So that's the first group.

1096
00:39:51,989 --> 00:39:54,091
Second group he describes
is the Christian left.

1097
00:39:55,092 --> 00:39:57,561
And this is, we're much
less familiar with them.

1098
00:39:57,995 --> 00:39:59,897
But the Christian
left are those people

1099
00:39:59,897 --> 00:40:03,234
who want to follow
Jesus, want to be kind,

1100
00:40:03,801 --> 00:40:06,871
want to show love, think
we need to be showing justice

1101
00:40:06,871 --> 00:40:08,773
to people and being
generous to people

1102
00:40:08,773 --> 00:40:11,876
and that the Christian
way of life is a way of love

1103
00:40:11,876 --> 00:40:13,878
and acceptance and embracing.

1104
00:40:14,478 --> 00:40:16,747
And the gospel
means we love people

1105
00:40:16,747 --> 00:40:18,649
and that's what
Jesus taught us to do.

1106
00:40:18,749 --> 00:40:21,285
And the Christian left
hates the Christian right.

1107
00:40:21,652 --> 00:40:23,220
They're embarrassed by them.

1108
00:40:23,220 --> 00:40:24,989
They find the
Christian right offensive.

1109
00:40:25,322 --> 00:40:27,858
They're like the
backwoods Ozark yokels.

1110
00:40:28,192 --> 00:40:29,093
Sorry Springfield people.

1111
00:40:29,727 --> 00:40:31,962
Yeah, I know, you're here.

1112
00:40:32,430 --> 00:40:34,532
And so the Christian
left is just embarrassed

1113
00:40:34,532 --> 00:40:35,866
by the Christian right.

1114
00:40:36,133 --> 00:40:38,903
And in fact, the Christian
right defines itself

1115
00:40:38,903 --> 00:40:44,275
over against liberals in
the left or the progressives

1116
00:40:44,275 --> 00:40:46,510
and we would
nowadays say the woke.

1117
00:40:47,111 --> 00:40:48,712
And so the Christian
right defines itself

1118
00:40:48,712 --> 00:40:49,547
over against them.

1119
00:40:49,847 --> 00:40:52,049
The Christian
left defines itself

1120
00:40:52,049 --> 00:40:53,284
over against the
Christian rights.

1121
00:40:53,784 --> 00:40:55,653
We don't like them
and they work hard

1122
00:40:55,653 --> 00:40:57,288
to try to distance
themselves from them.

1123
00:40:58,289 --> 00:41:00,624
UCC churches would
be right in this category.

1124
00:41:01,258 --> 00:41:02,338
ELCA churches typically fall

1125
00:41:02,380 --> 00:41:03,661
right in this
kind of category.

1126
00:41:04,028 --> 00:41:05,463
There are other
individuals who as well.

1127
00:41:06,030 --> 00:41:07,631
Tony Campolo, somebody
maybe know that name

1128
00:41:07,631 --> 00:41:09,533
from a while back, he'd
be an example of this.

1129
00:41:09,934 --> 00:41:12,636
So it's these people
who are showing love,

1130
00:41:12,770 --> 00:41:13,404
showing compassion.

1131
00:41:13,871 --> 00:41:16,373
Do they have a case for that's
how Christianity should work?

1132
00:41:16,707 --> 00:41:18,709
Sure, but that's
how they operate.

1133
00:41:19,176 --> 00:41:21,679
Then his third
group, he talks about,

1134
00:41:21,679 --> 00:41:24,682
he calls these guys
the neo Anabaptist.

1135
00:41:26,183 --> 00:41:28,486
And this gets a little
bit into the deeper,

1136
00:41:28,652 --> 00:41:30,020
the academy kind
of side of things,

1137
00:41:30,020 --> 00:41:32,723
but the primary representative
here is Stanley Hauerwas.

1138
00:41:32,890 --> 00:41:33,891
That's who he's
thinking about.

1139
00:41:34,091 --> 00:41:35,726
And there are a
number of people

1140
00:41:35,726 --> 00:41:37,928
who have been
influenced by Hauerwas

1141
00:41:37,928 --> 00:41:39,077
who think that the best thing

1142
00:41:39,119 --> 00:41:40,431
that the church
should be doing

1143
00:41:40,431 --> 00:41:44,201
is just pulling out and
kind of stay out of things.

1144
00:41:44,368 --> 00:41:45,936
And because the world is evil

1145
00:41:45,936 --> 00:41:49,673
and the government
is profoundly violent

1146
00:41:49,673 --> 00:41:51,208
and we want
nothing to do with it.

1147
00:41:51,208 --> 00:41:53,911
And so the right solution is
just to back out of everything

1148
00:41:53,911 --> 00:41:56,881
and to bad America,
America has nothing to offer.

1149
00:41:57,281 --> 00:42:00,084
And so this is kind of a
down on America thing,

1150
00:42:00,184 --> 00:42:01,473
even though Hauerwas isn't

1151
00:42:01,515 --> 00:42:03,254
exactly there,
he's pretty close.

1152
00:42:03,888 --> 00:42:05,155
So the shoe kind of fits.

1153
00:42:05,689 --> 00:42:08,192
And so down on
America, not much good.

1154
00:42:08,626 --> 00:42:12,029
Christian right thinks
America is God's great gift.

1155
00:42:12,429 --> 00:42:14,698
Yay, America,
patriotic, everything.

1156
00:42:15,132 --> 00:42:17,134
This is 4th of
July in the church,

1157
00:42:17,668 --> 00:42:19,303
Star-Spangled Banner
during the divine service.

1158
00:42:19,303 --> 00:42:21,305
We're right there,
that's Christian right.

1159
00:42:21,772 --> 00:42:24,074
Christian left gets a
little embarrassed by that,

1160
00:42:24,141 --> 00:42:26,644
but they think that
America can do good things,

1161
00:42:26,844 --> 00:42:28,212
the government
should be doing things,

1162
00:42:28,312 --> 00:42:30,748
the government should be doing
more things, social action.

1163
00:42:30,781 --> 00:42:31,949
They're all
supportive of this.

1164
00:42:32,182 --> 00:42:33,884
They love the
government programs,

1165
00:42:34,051 --> 00:42:35,352
they love the church
supporting these things.

1166
00:42:35,386 --> 00:42:36,554
They're all down for that.

1167
00:42:36,921 --> 00:42:39,323
So that's kind of where the
differences come into play

1168
00:42:39,323 --> 00:42:41,859
of how you look at America,
what it means to be American.

1169
00:42:42,192 --> 00:42:45,529
Christian right, God
in America, like that.

1170
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:47,723
Christianity in
America, there's

1171
00:42:47,765 --> 00:42:49,066
this no problem here at all.

1172
00:42:49,533 --> 00:42:52,670
Christian left, we're not
gonna be the Christian right,

1173
00:42:52,736 --> 00:42:54,705
we're not weird like that,
but we also think America

1174
00:42:54,705 --> 00:42:56,173
can accomplish a
lot of great things.

1175
00:42:57,241 --> 00:43:01,278
Classic example, when
Obergefell got passed,

1176
00:43:01,612 --> 00:43:03,914
and you remember what
the Obama White House did,

1177
00:43:04,014 --> 00:43:06,183
they lit the White House
up with rainbow colors,

1178
00:43:06,283 --> 00:43:06,784
remember that?

1179
00:43:06,884 --> 00:43:08,285
And it was like the
image everywhere,

1180
00:43:08,652 --> 00:43:09,787
and it was like
the big celebration.

1181
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:11,722
And the Christian
right's going, ah,

1182
00:43:12,256 --> 00:43:13,090
and pulling their hair out.

1183
00:43:13,090 --> 00:43:16,560
Christian left's going,
ah, isn't that beautiful?

1184
00:43:16,927 --> 00:43:18,696
See the gospel,
we're loving people.

1185
00:43:18,796 --> 00:43:21,298
That's how they think, and
you need to understand that.

1186
00:43:21,532 --> 00:43:23,534
And the new anti-vapors are
saying, what are we doing?

1187
00:43:23,867 --> 00:43:27,171
Leave it all alone, get
out of there, leave it alone.

1188
00:43:27,504 --> 00:43:30,474
And so that's the three
categories that Hunter sees.

1189
00:43:30,674 --> 00:43:33,177
I think this is a useful
way of understanding this,

1190
00:43:33,310 --> 00:43:35,112
because you see,
you can talk to people

1191
00:43:35,112 --> 00:43:36,113
who say they're a
Christian and say,

1192
00:43:36,213 --> 00:43:39,483
well how can you, and
whatever they're doing.

1193
00:43:39,984 --> 00:43:41,685
Well it's because they're
looking at what it means

1194
00:43:41,685 --> 00:43:43,787
to be a Christian, maybe
very differently than you are,

1195
00:43:43,887 --> 00:43:45,422
or very differently
than somebody else is.

1196
00:43:45,623 --> 00:43:46,724
Because the Christian
right and Christian left

1197
00:43:46,724 --> 00:43:48,859
have very different
visions of what they think

1198
00:43:48,859 --> 00:43:50,527
a Christian America
should look like.

1199
00:43:51,095 --> 00:43:51,528
Yeah, Josh.

1200
00:43:55,265 --> 00:43:57,501
Yeah, neo-anabaptist,
the Amish,

1201
00:43:58,035 --> 00:43:59,903
it's just, if you haven't
read Hauerwas,

1202
00:43:59,970 --> 00:44:01,005
it won't make sense
to you, but see,

1203
00:44:01,071 --> 00:44:06,143
Hower Wasch is very
critical of the church

1204
00:44:06,143 --> 00:44:07,945
and the state cooperating.

1205
00:44:08,145 --> 00:44:10,247
He thinks, his argument is,

1206
00:44:10,247 --> 00:44:12,783
the state is
fundamentally problematic

1207
00:44:12,783 --> 00:44:14,585
because it's
premised on the sword.

1208
00:44:15,119 --> 00:44:17,187
And as an anabaptist
or neo-anabaptist,

1209
00:44:17,254 --> 00:44:20,157
he thinks any violence is
always ruled out, period.

1210
00:44:20,457 --> 00:44:22,493
He has no room for Romans 13.

1211
00:44:23,427 --> 00:44:25,229
And what does he do with it?

1212
00:44:25,295 --> 00:44:28,432
Well he has a weird way of
analyzing and interpreting it.

1213
00:44:28,632 --> 00:44:29,466
It gets all bizarre.

1214
00:44:32,403 --> 00:44:33,003
Yeah, yeah.

1215
00:44:34,271 --> 00:44:34,705
Yeah, yeah.

1216
00:44:35,139 --> 00:44:36,407
And so that's
Stanley Hauerwas.

1217
00:44:36,607 --> 00:44:37,441
There aren't a lot of them.

1218
00:44:37,574 --> 00:44:38,742
In fact, if you go by numbers,

1219
00:44:38,742 --> 00:44:41,412
this is the biggest
group by far.

1220
00:44:41,578 --> 00:44:42,513
Christian Left
is much smaller.

1221
00:44:42,846 --> 00:44:44,281
Neo-anabaptist, very small,

1222
00:44:44,515 --> 00:44:46,950
but very influential
in some circles.

1223
00:44:47,818 --> 00:44:48,886
You've maybe heard stories.

1224
00:44:49,019 --> 00:44:51,088
There was a story
about an LCMS pastor

1225
00:44:51,088 --> 00:44:52,790
who, to make a
point in a sermon,

1226
00:44:53,023 --> 00:44:54,525
took an American flag
and put it on the floor

1227
00:44:54,525 --> 00:44:56,293
and walked on it
and stepped on it.

1228
00:44:56,593 --> 00:44:58,295
Okay, because see,
we're not American,

1229
00:44:58,462 --> 00:44:59,763
we're not a Christian
nation, we're not doing that.

1230
00:45:00,030 --> 00:45:02,433
Well, that'd be a very
neo-anabaptist thing to do.

1231
00:45:03,067 --> 00:45:05,502
But his right,
Christian right audience

1232
00:45:05,502 --> 00:45:07,204
didn't respond real well.

1233
00:45:09,073 --> 00:45:11,642
You can kind of
imagine, all right?

1234
00:45:12,109 --> 00:45:14,445
So in other words, it's
good to know all three

1235
00:45:14,445 --> 00:45:16,146
because they're
around, all right?

1236
00:45:16,346 --> 00:45:18,315
So I thought I saw another
hand kind of, oh there it is.

1237
00:45:18,816 --> 00:45:21,218
Do you see decisions
for hundreds of days

1238
00:45:21,218 --> 00:45:24,555
as institutional levels
or personal levels?

1239
00:45:24,988 --> 00:45:25,456
Both.

1240
00:45:25,856 --> 00:45:27,958
There are institutions
that support all these.

1241
00:45:28,325 --> 00:45:31,428
Moral majority,
focus on the family,

1242
00:45:32,463 --> 00:45:34,631
wall builders, there's
a ton of right wing

1243
00:45:35,132 --> 00:45:36,300
Christian right groups,

1244
00:45:36,533 --> 00:45:37,768
and there are
Christian Left groups.

1245
00:45:38,402 --> 00:45:40,504
And these are
not familiar to me,

1246
00:45:40,571 --> 00:45:42,706
and I forget, but there are
institutions for all of these.

1247
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,075
The least
institutional is this one.

1248
00:45:46,009 --> 00:45:49,580
Is he assuming that a
particular congregation

1249
00:45:49,580 --> 00:45:51,415
might find all three?

1250
00:45:51,582 --> 00:45:53,016
Yes, that could happen.

1251
00:45:53,751 --> 00:45:54,218
That could happen.

1252
00:45:54,351 --> 00:45:56,520
Hunter's not that concerned
about congregational life.

1253
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:57,488
He's just not.

1254
00:45:57,554 --> 00:45:58,822
He's not writing to a pastor.

1255
00:45:59,123 --> 00:46:01,959
He's writing this as more
like an intellectual Christian

1256
00:46:01,959 --> 00:46:03,327
who's interested in what's
going on in the world.

1257
00:46:04,194 --> 00:46:08,766
Hunter himself comes
out of like an Episcopalian

1258
00:46:08,766 --> 00:46:12,436
kind of academic, more
of an elitist, to be honest,

1259
00:46:12,669 --> 00:46:14,171
kind of way of
operating with things.

1260
00:46:15,038 --> 00:46:15,072
Okay?

1261
00:46:15,539 --> 00:46:15,973
Yeah, Trevor.

1262
00:46:16,273 --> 00:46:17,708
What would you
plot for the call

1263
00:46:17,708 --> 00:46:19,910
for the like, I'm thinking
Benedict Option,

1264
00:46:20,210 --> 00:46:22,045
where it's not
really number three,

1265
00:46:22,346 --> 00:46:22,846
it's more number two.

1266
00:46:22,946 --> 00:46:25,415
Well, no, that's kind
of where number,

1267
00:46:25,582 --> 00:46:26,884
that would be Benedict Option.

1268
00:46:28,118 --> 00:46:31,021
Because, and I'm
glad you brought that up

1269
00:46:31,021 --> 00:46:32,856
because that is a little
more, brings it more to home.

1270
00:46:33,557 --> 00:46:34,658
Because people
have heard of that.

1271
00:46:35,392 --> 00:46:36,827
Or if they haven't heard
of the Benedict Option

1272
00:46:36,827 --> 00:46:38,162
or they don't know
who Rod Dreher is,

1273
00:46:38,328 --> 00:46:40,464
they have heard of
the idea of withdrawal,

1274
00:46:40,964 --> 00:46:41,799
you know,
strategic withdrawal.

1275
00:46:41,932 --> 00:46:43,667
We had to get out of
here, get off the grid,

1276
00:46:43,967 --> 00:46:44,868
we're gonna do our own thing.

1277
00:46:45,502 --> 00:46:46,770
That's becoming
increasingly popular.

1278
00:46:46,904 --> 00:46:48,005
That would be category three.

1279
00:46:48,172 --> 00:46:49,907
Because you're basically
checking out of the world

1280
00:46:49,907 --> 00:46:50,707
and we're done with it.

1281
00:46:50,741 --> 00:46:52,609
And even though you're
maybe not being anti-America,

1282
00:46:52,843 --> 00:46:54,478
you also are
saying, we're done.

1283
00:46:54,912 --> 00:46:56,814
And that's the premise
of the Benedict Option.

1284
00:46:57,014 --> 00:46:58,115
The whole premise is,

1285
00:46:58,115 --> 00:47:01,885
and this is out of Alistair
MacIntyre's After Virtue,

1286
00:47:02,386 --> 00:47:03,420
which he wrote in 1981.

1287
00:47:03,887 --> 00:47:05,689
The very end of After
Virtue, the last paragraph,

1288
00:47:05,856 --> 00:47:08,759
MacIntyre says, we're
living in a new dark ages

1289
00:47:08,759 --> 00:47:11,728
and maybe it's time for
a new Benedict to come.

1290
00:47:11,929 --> 00:47:14,431
Because we're
recognizing that the culture

1291
00:47:14,431 --> 00:47:16,934
in which we're
living is too far gone,

1292
00:47:17,234 --> 00:47:18,502
there's no more
trying to rescue it,

1293
00:47:18,735 --> 00:47:20,204
time to just cut
bait and leave.

1294
00:47:20,704 --> 00:47:22,172
And that's the
Benedict Option.

1295
00:47:22,406 --> 00:47:25,108
Right, but I think why
it's maybe less consistent

1296
00:47:25,108 --> 00:47:27,144
than the Benedict,
both of these are,

1297
00:47:27,377 --> 00:47:30,681
we were number one, and you
became tired of fighting that.

1298
00:47:30,747 --> 00:47:33,183
That's exactly right,
that's exactly right.

1299
00:47:33,450 --> 00:47:35,281
And so the movement
from category

1300
00:47:35,323 --> 00:47:36,753
one over to category three

1301
00:47:36,753 --> 00:47:39,056
is not that far-fetched,
and it's pretty easy.

1302
00:47:39,223 --> 00:47:40,249
Even though
they're on opposite

1303
00:47:40,291 --> 00:47:41,124
sides in one, two, three.

1304
00:47:41,525 --> 00:47:43,594
Because you, basically,
you're exactly right.

1305
00:47:44,127 --> 00:47:46,196
Category one, when you
finally get tired of fighting

1306
00:47:46,196 --> 00:47:48,065
and think it's futile
and you give up,

1307
00:47:48,365 --> 00:47:50,367
then you might move to
category three and say,

1308
00:47:50,534 --> 00:47:53,070
I'm done here, and
let's move to Wyoming.

1309
00:47:53,070 --> 00:47:56,006
Oh, thank you very
much, appreciate it.

1310
00:47:56,673 --> 00:47:59,409
Not that I just picked Wyoming
randomly, but whatever.

1311
00:47:59,943 --> 00:48:00,878
All right?

1312
00:48:03,180 --> 00:48:03,580
Yes?

1313
00:48:04,181 --> 00:48:05,549
You mentioned the deeper root,

1314
00:48:05,916 --> 00:48:09,786
and that's just kind
of like a small of that.

1315
00:48:10,020 --> 00:48:11,188
He says that,

1316
00:48:14,157 --> 00:48:19,296
basically, if you become
more in the root group

1317
00:48:19,296 --> 00:48:22,799
that's cut away, then
you're exactly right.

1318
00:48:23,066 --> 00:48:27,104
But that's not the same thing.

1319
00:48:28,372 --> 00:48:28,805
Precisely.

1320
00:48:29,139 --> 00:48:32,910
This is why category three,
or the Benedict Option,

1321
00:48:33,243 --> 00:48:35,112
should always be
something that we resist.

1322
00:48:35,946 --> 00:48:38,048
Because, and this
is a key part of this.

1323
00:48:38,348 --> 00:48:40,550
Let's go back to thinking
about my two realms chart.

1324
00:48:40,717 --> 00:48:42,419
The whole point is the
Christian lives in both.

1325
00:48:43,453 --> 00:48:45,722
And so you can't just
take all of your toys

1326
00:48:45,722 --> 00:48:48,392
and take your bowl and go home
and say, I'm done with you.

1327
00:48:48,992 --> 00:48:50,928
And it doesn't
matter how messy

1328
00:48:50,928 --> 00:48:52,796
and how uncomfortable
it gets in that world,

1329
00:48:52,796 --> 00:48:53,964
you're still gotta
be in the world.

1330
00:48:54,331 --> 00:48:55,265
That's why you're here.

1331
00:48:56,333 --> 00:48:57,868
We're here to
witness to the world.

1332
00:48:58,335 --> 00:49:00,070
And we have this old
phrase in the church,

1333
00:49:00,170 --> 00:49:01,672
to be in the
world but not of it.

1334
00:49:02,205 --> 00:49:02,472
Okay?

1335
00:49:02,940 --> 00:49:04,875
And that's not in the
Bible, but the idea is,

1336
00:49:05,742 --> 00:49:06,810
and it captures things well.

1337
00:49:06,944 --> 00:49:08,912
But how that
works, that's hard.

1338
00:49:09,246 --> 00:49:10,113
And it's not easy.

1339
00:49:10,447 --> 00:49:13,483
But it's never right to say,
I know, we're just done.

1340
00:49:14,117 --> 00:49:15,085
That's never an option.

1341
00:49:15,686 --> 00:49:19,656
Now, could it get to the
point where things get so bad

1342
00:49:19,656 --> 00:49:21,992
in a country that you
say, for us to live here

1343
00:49:21,992 --> 00:49:24,494
is jeopardizing
my family, my kids?

1344
00:49:25,228 --> 00:49:26,797
Yeah, and then
maybe it's time to go.

1345
00:49:27,397 --> 00:49:29,433
Move to the Philippines
or somewhere

1346
00:49:29,433 --> 00:49:31,768
where there's not quite
so much animosity yet.

1347
00:49:32,436 --> 00:49:34,204
I've been to the Philippines,
I think I'd go there.

1348
00:49:35,973 --> 00:49:37,207
And that's not wrong.

1349
00:49:37,574 --> 00:49:38,241
That's not wrong.

1350
00:49:38,675 --> 00:49:41,345
But you're still not
forsaking the world,

1351
00:49:41,511 --> 00:49:42,813
you're just changing
the world you're in.

1352
00:49:42,980 --> 00:49:44,114
And that's the
scripture for that too.

1353
00:49:44,247 --> 00:49:46,783
Jesus says, things get
bad, go ahead and flee.

1354
00:49:47,284 --> 00:49:48,485
Get out, get out of dodge.

1355
00:49:49,086 --> 00:49:50,554
But you're not
forsaking the world,

1356
00:49:50,554 --> 00:49:52,889
you're just doing what you
need to do to care for things.

1357
00:49:53,924 --> 00:49:54,424
All right, good?

1358
00:49:55,592 --> 00:49:58,028
All right, so that
gets you introduced

1359
00:49:58,028 --> 00:49:58,996
to Hunter a little bit.

1360
00:49:59,730 --> 00:50:01,832
This summer, he
published a brand new book

1361
00:50:01,832 --> 00:50:03,667
called Democracy
and Solidarity.

1362
00:50:04,401 --> 00:50:06,570
And this is one of the
few times I actually bought

1363
00:50:06,570 --> 00:50:09,239
a brand new book, fresh
off the presses and read it.

1364
00:50:09,272 --> 00:50:11,074
Usually I'm reading books
that are ancient and old

1365
00:50:11,074 --> 00:50:12,409
and I finally
get around to it,

1366
00:50:12,509 --> 00:50:13,610
and they've been on my
shelf and I get around to it.

1367
00:50:13,643 --> 00:50:15,712
This one I bought, put
it to the top of my list

1368
00:50:15,712 --> 00:50:16,646
and I read through it.

1369
00:50:18,315 --> 00:50:18,648
Awesome.

1370
00:50:19,249 --> 00:50:22,819
It's just like, my wife and I
took some time on vacation

1371
00:50:22,819 --> 00:50:24,287
and I took it with me
and I was reading it

1372
00:50:24,287 --> 00:50:27,758
and carefully, I didn't
take away time from us.

1373
00:50:28,258 --> 00:50:30,594
But what a great book.

1374
00:50:30,727 --> 00:50:31,528
And as I was
reading, I thought,

1375
00:50:31,728 --> 00:50:33,497
come tell me, this is gonna
be what I'm gonna use

1376
00:50:33,497 --> 00:50:37,200
for teaching, this is just,
it's a really great book.

1377
00:50:37,868 --> 00:50:40,070
So the title is
Democracy and Solidarity.

1378
00:50:40,203 --> 00:50:41,705
And by the way, I
just noticed today,

1379
00:50:41,872 --> 00:50:43,807
I was reading,
which site was it?

1380
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,710
I think it was on BBC or
maybe it was USA Today.

1381
00:50:46,710 --> 00:50:49,112
I think it was BBC,
actually had an article

1382
00:50:49,112 --> 00:50:51,715
someone had written, six
key books you should read

1383
00:50:51,715 --> 00:50:54,017
to understand what's
going on in America today.

1384
00:50:54,317 --> 00:50:56,053
This is one of
their six, okay?

1385
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,389
And this was just BBC,
nothing Christian about it,

1386
00:50:59,423 --> 00:51:00,557
but they just were recognizing

1387
00:51:00,557 --> 00:51:03,093
this is a really
insightful book.

1388
00:51:03,427 --> 00:51:05,796
So Democracy and Solidarity,
and the subtitle is

1389
00:51:05,796 --> 00:51:08,632
On the Cultural Roots of
America's Political Crisis.

1390
00:51:09,332 --> 00:51:13,236
Now, what he's doing in
this book is he is looking at

1391
00:51:13,236 --> 00:51:14,905
what's going on
in America today.

1392
00:51:14,905 --> 00:51:18,708
Everybody is hearing all the
time about all the vitriol,

1393
00:51:18,909 --> 00:51:21,545
all the animosity, all the
division, all the hatred,

1394
00:51:21,645 --> 00:51:23,013
oh, it's so bad,
so bad, so bad,

1395
00:51:23,046 --> 00:51:23,847
it's never been this way.

1396
00:51:23,947 --> 00:51:25,415
Well, that's not
entirely true.

1397
00:51:25,849 --> 00:51:29,219
But it's also true that
things are different now

1398
00:51:29,219 --> 00:51:30,487
than they have been before.

1399
00:51:31,121 --> 00:51:31,955
That's correct.

1400
00:51:32,222 --> 00:51:34,825
And Hunter helps
us understand that.

1401
00:51:35,425 --> 00:51:39,296
It's not an easy book,
I'll just say that as well.

1402
00:51:40,063 --> 00:51:42,165
So you buy it and you start
reading it and you curse me.

1403
00:51:43,567 --> 00:51:45,335
I'm warning you now, okay?

1404
00:51:45,569 --> 00:51:49,106
It's not an easy book, it's
written at a pretty decent

1405
00:51:49,106 --> 00:51:51,274
academic level, and I'm not
saying you're not smart enough

1406
00:51:51,274 --> 00:51:52,909
to read it, I'm just
warning you, okay?

1407
00:51:53,143 --> 00:51:56,413
This is not just a cakewalk
written for anybody

1408
00:51:56,413 --> 00:51:57,314
to get through.

1409
00:51:57,747 --> 00:51:59,703
But it's accessible, but he

1410
00:51:59,745 --> 00:52:02,185
goes into such
incredible detail

1411
00:52:02,185 --> 00:52:05,455
on the history of what's
going on in America

1412
00:52:05,455 --> 00:52:07,991
and what's happening,
and I think it's really worth

1413
00:52:07,991 --> 00:52:08,458
looking at.

1414
00:52:08,625 --> 00:52:10,694
So I wanna look at some
of this with you, okay?

1415
00:52:10,694 --> 00:52:11,761
And I'll give you
a taste of this.

1416
00:52:11,761 --> 00:52:14,264
So you get an idea if you
wanna read more or not

1417
00:52:14,264 --> 00:52:15,499
or if this is more
than enough.

1418
00:52:15,632 --> 00:52:17,334
And if it's more than
enough, my apologies

1419
00:52:17,868 --> 00:52:19,469
that I'm making
you endure this.

1420
00:52:19,803 --> 00:52:22,973
So Yale published it,
so Yale University Press,

1421
00:52:23,607 --> 00:52:25,775
and it came out with, it
was just this past summer,

1422
00:52:25,775 --> 00:52:27,377
so it's got a 2024 copyright.

1423
00:52:27,444 --> 00:52:29,513
So if you're looking for
it, you can find it online

1424
00:52:29,513 --> 00:52:30,714
readily, no problem.

1425
00:52:30,947 --> 00:52:33,116
So Democracy in Solidarity,
James, Davis, and Hunter

1426
00:52:33,116 --> 00:52:34,050
out this summer.

1427
00:52:34,451 --> 00:52:35,919
And he wrote it for
Honey, whoever that is.

1428
00:52:36,319 --> 00:52:37,053
All right.

1429
00:52:38,722 --> 00:52:42,492
So he has three descriptions
at the very beginning,

1430
00:52:42,659 --> 00:52:43,793
which are worth looking at.

1431
00:52:44,427 --> 00:52:46,496
And these are, he
starts the whole book.

1432
00:52:46,796 --> 00:52:49,366
He says, man's, he's got first
one from Reinhold Niebuhr.

1433
00:52:50,233 --> 00:52:53,136
Man's capacity for justice
makes democracy possible,

1434
00:52:54,137 --> 00:52:55,906
but man's
inclination to injustice

1435
00:52:55,906 --> 00:52:57,474
makes democracy necessary.

1436
00:52:58,074 --> 00:53:01,077
That's very nice,
Niebuhr from 1944.

1437
00:53:01,645 --> 00:53:03,547
So in other words,
democracy's possible

1438
00:53:03,547 --> 00:53:06,183
because we want
justice, we want fairness.

1439
00:53:06,183 --> 00:53:07,417
And democracy allows that.

1440
00:53:07,751 --> 00:53:09,950
But our inclination
to injustice

1441
00:53:09,992 --> 00:53:11,688
makes democracy necessary

1442
00:53:11,688 --> 00:53:13,857
because democracy,
rightly understood,

1443
00:53:13,924 --> 00:53:16,860
becomes a check
on individual ambition.

1444
00:53:17,494 --> 00:53:19,229
So this is back to what we
were talking about before,

1445
00:53:19,429 --> 00:53:20,630
I mean, the divine
right of kings.

1446
00:53:21,064 --> 00:53:24,267
Kings are great so long as
they're benevolent and kind

1447
00:53:24,267 --> 00:53:25,368
and doing things God's way.

1448
00:53:25,936 --> 00:53:27,204
When kings are
doing their own thing,

1449
00:53:27,337 --> 00:53:28,305
they're kind of a problem

1450
00:53:28,872 --> 00:53:29,906
because they've
got a lot of authority

1451
00:53:29,906 --> 00:53:31,241
and they're
hard to get rid of.

1452
00:53:31,608 --> 00:53:33,143
And you're stuck with them.

1453
00:53:33,410 --> 00:53:35,478
And so that's why
throughout the Middle Ages,

1454
00:53:35,478 --> 00:53:37,247
everybody complains
about their stupid kings

1455
00:53:37,247 --> 00:53:38,415
and their lousy kings.

1456
00:53:38,515 --> 00:53:39,249
And that's why in America,

1457
00:53:39,282 --> 00:53:40,550
we couldn't wait
to get rid of a king.

1458
00:53:40,850 --> 00:53:41,785
So we got rid of our king.

1459
00:53:41,952 --> 00:53:42,919
So now we got democracy.

1460
00:53:43,753 --> 00:53:45,055
And what always happens,

1461
00:53:45,255 --> 00:53:47,424
and my German students
always smile about this

1462
00:53:47,424 --> 00:53:48,592
because they know
how true this is,

1463
00:53:48,592 --> 00:53:50,894
that you always want
what you don't have.

1464
00:53:51,695 --> 00:53:54,297
And so, you know,
you've got your tyrant,

1465
00:53:54,531 --> 00:53:55,498
you can't wait for democracy.

1466
00:53:55,532 --> 00:53:56,833
But when you've got
democracy, you think, man,

1467
00:53:56,866 --> 00:53:58,568
I wish we had somebody in
charge who would run things

1468
00:53:58,969 --> 00:53:59,970
and get things done.

1469
00:54:00,203 --> 00:54:02,372
And so that's kind
of how it works.

1470
00:54:02,372 --> 00:54:04,674
And I'm always reminded
of Churchill's famous quote,

1471
00:54:04,674 --> 00:54:05,609
which probably you've heard,

1472
00:54:06,009 --> 00:54:08,345
which is, democracy is the
worst form of government,

1473
00:54:08,345 --> 00:54:10,380
except for all the
others we've tried.

1474
00:54:11,314 --> 00:54:13,583
And so I think that
captures things well.

1475
00:54:13,817 --> 00:54:16,853
I'm, and this also shocks
American audiences,

1476
00:54:16,853 --> 00:54:20,490
but I'm not a fan of
democracy per se.

1477
00:54:20,857 --> 00:54:22,292
And I wasn't planning to say,

1478
00:54:22,359 --> 00:54:23,093
but let me say this.

1479
00:54:23,660 --> 00:54:26,296
As a Christian, you
should know that democracy

1480
00:54:26,296 --> 00:54:28,632
is not the de facto
way of doing things.

1481
00:54:29,165 --> 00:54:30,033
It's not.

1482
00:54:30,467 --> 00:54:33,670
It's a way, but it's not
like the Christian way.

1483
00:54:33,670 --> 00:54:35,972
And I'm always amazed
at how many Christians

1484
00:54:35,972 --> 00:54:37,907
are convinced that, well,
democracy is from God.

1485
00:54:38,608 --> 00:54:39,376
It's the God way.

1486
00:54:40,844 --> 00:54:42,045
No, it's a way.

1487
00:54:42,145 --> 00:54:43,513
It's giving a
bunch of sinners.

1488
00:54:44,414 --> 00:54:46,016
How, when they
should have one sin.

1489
00:54:46,049 --> 00:54:47,017
Well, yeah, that's fair.

1490
00:54:47,150 --> 00:54:48,151
That's a fair way to put it.

1491
00:54:49,152 --> 00:54:50,086
Yeah, fair way of putting it.

1492
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:50,787
Don't tell me
how to live my life.

1493
00:54:50,787 --> 00:54:53,323
Yeah, and so
democracy is a way.

1494
00:54:53,423 --> 00:54:55,392
And as Churchill says,
it's a very good way.

1495
00:54:55,492 --> 00:54:56,926
And as Niebuhr's
getting at here,

1496
00:54:56,926 --> 00:54:58,295
it's a very effective way.

1497
00:54:58,295 --> 00:55:00,130
And there's a lot to
be said in favor of it.

1498
00:55:00,263 --> 00:55:01,879
And you should
know that Hunter

1499
00:55:01,921 --> 00:55:03,266
is a big fan of democracy.

1500
00:55:03,266 --> 00:55:05,902
He likes it, but he's
very concerned about it.

1501
00:55:05,935 --> 00:55:07,470
That's gonna become
clear as we go.

1502
00:55:07,504 --> 00:55:09,773
Would you say that we
are much more children

1503
00:55:09,773 --> 00:55:11,474
than the loaves and
the gurus and the arks

1504
00:55:11,474 --> 00:55:12,475
and the souls of the God?

1505
00:55:13,343 --> 00:55:14,444
Absolutely, yeah.

1506
00:55:14,611 --> 00:55:17,013
We have inherited the Roman
Greek way kind of operating,

1507
00:55:17,147 --> 00:55:18,615
which is the
enlightenment heritage.

1508
00:55:18,815 --> 00:55:19,896
The enlightenment
re-pristinated

1509
00:55:19,938 --> 00:55:20,583
some of that stuff,

1510
00:55:20,650 --> 00:55:22,719
grabbed onto those things
and liked these things.

1511
00:55:22,952 --> 00:55:23,887
That and everything on that?

1512
00:55:23,953 --> 00:55:25,288
That's correct, yes.

1513
00:55:25,522 --> 00:55:26,356
I would say that's true.

1514
00:55:26,656 --> 00:55:29,392
A Christian way of
operating, Jesus is Lord.

1515
00:55:29,626 --> 00:55:31,461
We kind of like
that authority.

1516
00:55:31,461 --> 00:55:33,096
And that was the
argument that was made

1517
00:55:33,096 --> 00:55:33,830
all through the Middle Ages.

1518
00:55:34,064 --> 00:55:36,433
There's one Lord, there's
one King, there, we're done.

1519
00:55:37,167 --> 00:55:39,502
Okay, you know, and
it's kind of compelling.

1520
00:55:41,771 --> 00:55:43,973
It's very much unethical
to democracy, yeah.

1521
00:55:44,507 --> 00:55:46,676
All right, then we've got
a nice Lincoln quote here

1522
00:55:46,676 --> 00:55:48,778
from the speech on
the Dred Scott decision.

1523
00:55:49,779 --> 00:55:51,548
The founders had
established the proposition

1524
00:55:51,548 --> 00:55:52,849
that all men were
created equal,

1525
00:55:53,216 --> 00:55:55,585
so that the enforcement
of it might follow

1526
00:55:55,585 --> 00:55:57,253
as fast as circumstances
would permit.

1527
00:55:57,854 --> 00:55:59,308
They meant to
set up a standard

1528
00:55:59,350 --> 00:56:00,423
maxim for free society,

1529
00:56:00,423 --> 00:56:02,492
which should be familiar
to all and revered by all,

1530
00:56:02,792 --> 00:56:04,527
constantly looked to,
constantly labored for,

1531
00:56:04,627 --> 00:56:06,162
and even though
never perfectly attained,

1532
00:56:06,629 --> 00:56:09,065
constantly approximated, and
thereby constantly spreading

1533
00:56:09,065 --> 00:56:11,301
and deepening its
influence and augmenting

1534
00:56:11,301 --> 00:56:12,502
the happiness
and value of life

1535
00:56:12,502 --> 00:56:14,371
to all people of all
colors everywhere.

1536
00:56:14,971 --> 00:56:15,672
Now, here's the kicker.

1537
00:56:16,206 --> 00:56:18,341
Its authors meant
it to be, thank God,

1538
00:56:18,641 --> 00:56:21,644
it is now proving
itself a stumbling block

1539
00:56:21,644 --> 00:56:25,415
to those who after times might
seek to turn a free people

1540
00:56:25,415 --> 00:56:28,084
back into the hateful
paths of despotism.

1541
00:56:28,651 --> 00:56:32,255
They knew the proneness of
prosperity to breed tyrants.

1542
00:56:32,789 --> 00:56:33,423
That's Lincoln.

1543
00:56:34,090 --> 00:56:35,651
And they meant
when such should

1544
00:56:35,693 --> 00:56:36,993
reappear in this fair land

1545
00:56:36,993 --> 00:56:39,729
and commence their vocation,
they should find left for them

1546
00:56:39,729 --> 00:56:41,431
at least one
hard nut to crack.

1547
00:56:42,365 --> 00:56:44,934
So prosperity has a
tendency to breed tyrants,

1548
00:56:45,435 --> 00:56:47,470
because we get comfortable
and we like what we have,

1549
00:56:47,704 --> 00:56:48,805
and you have
one guy in charge,

1550
00:56:49,305 --> 00:56:50,940
everybody keeps
what they've got,

1551
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:52,742
and there's
something to this, okay.

1552
00:56:53,209 --> 00:56:55,545
Democracy has a way of kind
of leveling everything out.

1553
00:56:56,112 --> 00:56:57,347
All right, interesting.

1554
00:56:57,347 --> 00:56:59,315
That's Lincoln, 1857.

1555
00:56:59,916 --> 00:57:00,917
Pretty insightful.

1556
00:57:01,551 --> 00:57:02,685
Then we've got
Frederick Douglass,

1557
00:57:03,186 --> 00:57:04,954
remember the
famous freed slave.

1558
00:57:05,488 --> 00:57:07,457
Notwithstanding the
dark picture I have this day

1559
00:57:07,457 --> 00:57:08,925
presented of the state
of the Union nation,

1560
00:57:09,025 --> 00:57:10,226
I do not despair
of this country.

1561
00:57:10,693 --> 00:57:11,928
The arm of the
Lord is not shortened

1562
00:57:11,928 --> 00:57:13,263
and the doom of
slavery is certain.

1563
00:57:13,563 --> 00:57:15,532
I therefore leave off
where I began with hope.

1564
00:57:15,965 --> 00:57:19,235
And this becomes kind
of Hunter's driving thing

1565
00:57:19,235 --> 00:57:22,205
through his whole book
is he's not despairing

1566
00:57:22,705 --> 00:57:25,642
all the way yet,
but he's real close.

1567
00:57:25,642 --> 00:57:28,144
But he wants there to be hope,

1568
00:57:28,378 --> 00:57:29,345
and he wants to
hang on to that,

1569
00:57:29,446 --> 00:57:31,481
so he's still hopeful that
maybe we can get somewhere.

1570
00:57:31,815 --> 00:57:33,116
All right, so now
we get into the book.

1571
00:57:33,550 --> 00:57:38,154
So it's not a short
book, 373 pages.

1572
00:57:39,055 --> 00:57:41,724
Well, I talked about
450 when you put it

1573
00:57:41,724 --> 00:57:43,893
in all the footnotes, and
he's got tons of endnotes.

1574
00:57:44,427 --> 00:57:47,664
So it's not short,
but it's solid.

1575
00:57:48,298 --> 00:57:50,767
All right, so I'm gonna just
walk through his preface

1576
00:57:50,767 --> 00:57:53,002
and first chapter and then
one of the very last chapters,

1577
00:57:53,002 --> 00:57:54,504
and I'm gonna kind
of do this quickly,

1578
00:57:54,504 --> 00:57:56,940
and then give
you time for Q&A.

1579
00:57:57,173 --> 00:57:59,275
So I wanna give you a
taste of what he's up to here

1580
00:57:59,275 --> 00:58:00,109
and the argument he makes,

1581
00:58:00,210 --> 00:58:02,612
because this is a really, I
think, important argument.

1582
00:58:03,513 --> 00:58:04,614
So he starts off by saying,

1583
00:58:05,248 --> 00:58:07,584
"'The hope of a vibrant
political solidarity

1584
00:58:08,184 --> 00:58:10,186
"'implied in America's
hybrid enlightenment

1585
00:58:10,186 --> 00:58:12,355
"'was always set against
contradictions intrinsic

1586
00:58:12,355 --> 00:58:13,936
"'within itself,
contradictions

1587
00:58:13,978 --> 00:58:14,991
that have guaranteed

1588
00:58:14,991 --> 00:58:16,559
"'and continue to
guarantee tension,

1589
00:58:17,026 --> 00:58:18,828
"'conflict, and at
times, violence.'"

1590
00:58:18,828 --> 00:58:20,697
All right, so let me
just set the stage here,

1591
00:58:20,830 --> 00:58:21,664
what he means by this.

1592
00:58:21,664 --> 00:58:26,102
He talks about America as
being a hybrid enlightenment.

1593
00:58:26,870 --> 00:58:28,771
This is brilliant on his part,

1594
00:58:28,938 --> 00:58:30,807
because what
he's recognizing is

1595
00:58:30,807 --> 00:58:33,710
that America is definitely
an enlightenment country,

1596
00:58:34,210 --> 00:58:36,312
because we came out of
that whole enlightenment stuff

1597
00:58:36,312 --> 00:58:38,014
of the Europe, and
if you're not familiar

1598
00:58:38,014 --> 00:58:40,984
with the enlightenment,
that's a whole nother animal,

1599
00:58:41,284 --> 00:58:43,286
and I don't have
time for that right now

1600
00:58:43,286 --> 00:58:45,388
to unpack all that,
and it's important.

1601
00:58:45,755 --> 00:58:48,591
But the enlightenment
defines how the West

1602
00:58:48,591 --> 00:58:52,662
has been operating since
the 17th century, okay?

1603
00:58:52,829 --> 00:58:55,265
Since the time of Descartes,
Descartes died in 1650.

1604
00:58:55,532 --> 00:58:56,633
This is just post-Reformation.

1605
00:58:57,033 --> 00:58:58,902
Remember, Luther dies in 1546,

1606
00:58:58,902 --> 00:59:00,370
and then 100 years later,

1607
00:59:00,503 --> 00:59:01,671
we're at full blast
into the enlightenment,

1608
00:59:01,804 --> 00:59:02,605
and away it goes.

1609
00:59:02,805 --> 00:59:04,807
And it has been defining
the West ever since.

1610
00:59:05,308 --> 00:59:07,210
The enlightenment
has some key tenets,

1611
00:59:07,310 --> 00:59:08,645
just to kind of give
you a quick idea.

1612
00:59:08,912 --> 00:59:10,146
The enlightenment is driven

1613
00:59:10,146 --> 00:59:12,715
with the confidence
of human capacity.

1614
00:59:13,416 --> 00:59:14,851
We can do it.

1615
00:59:15,418 --> 00:59:16,586
We can figure it out.

1616
00:59:16,586 --> 00:59:18,788
We don't need a church
to tell us how to do it.

1617
00:59:18,888 --> 00:59:20,125
We don't need
divine revelation

1618
00:59:20,167 --> 00:59:21,124
to tell us how to do it.

1619
00:59:21,291 --> 00:59:22,292
We'll figure it out.

1620
00:59:22,725 --> 00:59:23,760
We've got the wherewithal.

1621
00:59:23,826 --> 00:59:24,494
We're gonna do it.

1622
00:59:24,894 --> 00:59:26,529
Science is a product
of the enlightenment,

1623
00:59:26,596 --> 00:59:29,299
and we all have benefited
enormously from that,

1624
00:59:29,332 --> 00:59:30,833
and it's got some good stuff.

1625
00:59:31,034 --> 00:59:32,635
I'm real happy with
a lot of science stuff,

1626
00:59:32,635 --> 00:59:34,470
but the enlightenment
has some shortcomings,

1627
00:59:34,871 --> 00:59:37,273
because we can become
so confident in ourselves,

1628
00:59:37,373 --> 00:59:38,908
we think we've
got all the answers.

1629
00:59:39,175 --> 00:59:40,877
So that's what drives
the enlightenment.

1630
00:59:41,144 --> 00:59:43,112
So the enlightenment
has been this big project,

1631
00:59:43,112 --> 00:59:45,682
and it also gets
called modernity.

1632
00:59:46,449 --> 00:59:47,717
We talk about the postmodern.

1633
00:59:48,151 --> 00:59:49,986
Well, it's post after
the enlightenment.

1634
00:59:50,119 --> 00:59:52,088
That's the whole
premise of this, all right?

1635
00:59:52,555 --> 00:59:55,658
And another term for
enlightenment and modernity,

1636
00:59:55,692 --> 00:59:57,193
another term is liberalism,

1637
00:59:57,594 --> 01:00:01,130
and this is not liberal as in,
oh, Democrats woke AOC.

1638
01:00:01,431 --> 01:00:04,767
This is classic
liberalism as in man freed

1639
01:00:04,767 --> 01:00:08,771
to pursue his interests
and to be not shackled

1640
01:00:08,771 --> 01:00:10,773
by any kind of authority
outside of himself.

1641
01:00:10,974 --> 01:00:12,375
That's classic liberalism.

1642
01:00:12,742 --> 01:00:15,612
So America was
founded by a lot of people

1643
01:00:15,612 --> 01:00:17,914
who were steeped in
enlightenment thinking

1644
01:00:17,914 --> 01:00:20,984
by people like John
Locke and Rousseau,

1645
01:00:20,984 --> 01:00:23,753
and were very much
influenced by these thinkers

1646
01:00:23,753 --> 01:00:25,355
and believed in them.

1647
01:00:25,655 --> 01:00:28,825
Guys like Jefferson and
Hamilton and Madison

1648
01:00:28,825 --> 01:00:31,227
knew these guys, were
very steeped in them.

1649
01:00:31,361 --> 01:00:32,428
But America's unique,

1650
01:00:32,662 --> 01:00:35,365
because America also has
this very strong influence

1651
01:00:35,365 --> 01:00:38,968
of the Puritan presence
and the Calvinist presence

1652
01:00:38,968 --> 01:00:39,969
that comes in with that.

1653
01:00:40,336 --> 01:00:42,505
And we have this
kind of weird mixture

1654
01:00:42,505 --> 01:00:45,008
of these key
enlightenment thinkers

1655
01:00:45,008 --> 01:00:46,542
and then these
Christian thinkers,

1656
01:00:46,743 --> 01:00:47,910
and they're kind
of coming together

1657
01:00:47,910 --> 01:00:50,246
to figure out how to
make this country work.

1658
01:00:50,913 --> 01:00:52,966
And so that's why Hunter's

1659
01:00:53,008 --> 01:00:55,585
term is a hybrid
enlightenment.

1660
01:00:56,552 --> 01:00:57,961
Pure enlightenment
kind of looks

1661
01:00:58,003 --> 01:00:59,188
like the French Revolution.

1662
01:01:00,156 --> 01:01:02,091
The French Revolution
is pure enlightenment.

1663
01:01:02,358 --> 01:01:04,260
We don't need any God,
we don't need any church,

1664
01:01:04,327 --> 01:01:05,328
we're just gonna
do our own thing,

1665
01:01:05,328 --> 01:01:07,530
and then you get the access
of the French Revolution.

1666
01:01:07,730 --> 01:01:08,765
And you're familiar with that.

1667
01:01:08,831 --> 01:01:11,067
If you're not, Wikipedia
is nasty enough.

1668
01:01:11,534 --> 01:01:13,603
So did Hunter
invent that term?

1669
01:01:13,603 --> 01:01:15,004
Yes, it's his term.

1670
01:01:15,605 --> 01:01:16,472
Yep, it's his term.

1671
01:01:16,806 --> 01:01:18,174
Yep, he likes making up terms.

1672
01:01:19,075 --> 01:01:21,144
I don't know, but I think
it's a really good term.

1673
01:01:21,611 --> 01:01:23,613
And so that's pure
enlightenment.

1674
01:01:23,813 --> 01:01:24,547
We're a hybrid.

1675
01:01:24,914 --> 01:01:27,150
So we've got this kind of
Christian thing mixed in,

1676
01:01:27,150 --> 01:01:27,850
and we do.

1677
01:01:28,484 --> 01:01:30,853
We have the sense
of man's sinfulness.

1678
01:01:31,554 --> 01:01:33,790
And see, one of the premises
of our whole Constitution

1679
01:01:33,790 --> 01:01:36,092
is the checks and
balances built in, right?

1680
01:01:36,859 --> 01:01:39,195
And because we don't want
anybody to get too much power,

1681
01:01:39,262 --> 01:01:40,263
because we're suspicious.

1682
01:01:41,064 --> 01:01:43,399
We're suspicious
of human frailty.

1683
01:01:43,766 --> 01:01:44,867
We know what sin does.

1684
01:01:45,101 --> 01:01:47,070
We don't want one
person to have all the cards.

1685
01:01:47,270 --> 01:01:48,204
That's bad news.

1686
01:01:48,705 --> 01:01:51,374
We don't want a tyrant,
because that's dangerous.

1687
01:01:51,874 --> 01:01:55,211
And so that's the whole genius
of the American experiment

1688
01:01:55,211 --> 01:01:56,713
is keeping
everything in check.

1689
01:01:56,979 --> 01:01:58,347
And it was part of
that Christian influence

1690
01:01:58,347 --> 01:01:59,615
that helped make that happen.

1691
01:01:59,982 --> 01:02:02,452
So that's this idea of the
hybrid enlightenment, okay?

1692
01:02:02,752 --> 01:02:02,885
Josh?

1693
01:02:03,319 --> 01:02:04,954
Well, I think I
like that term.

1694
01:02:05,354 --> 01:02:05,488
You know,

1695
01:02:08,991 --> 01:02:11,594
I'm thinking
through that question

1696
01:02:11,594 --> 01:02:13,483
I worked on
where the Christian

1697
01:02:13,525 --> 01:02:15,031
is also taking the money.

1698
01:02:15,865 --> 01:02:16,532
That's right.

1699
01:02:17,500 --> 01:02:18,267
It's a great term.

1700
01:02:18,668 --> 01:02:20,703
Now he says, though,
that this is then,

1701
01:02:20,803 --> 01:02:23,127
it's set against
contradictions

1702
01:02:23,169 --> 01:02:24,941
intrinsic within itself.

1703
01:02:25,675 --> 01:02:26,976
So we already
have a contradiction.

1704
01:02:27,310 --> 01:02:28,911
We've got these Christians,
and we've got Jefferson

1705
01:02:28,911 --> 01:02:31,714
who is cutting
Bible miracles out.

1706
01:02:32,415 --> 01:02:33,316
How do those reconcile?

1707
01:02:33,616 --> 01:02:34,217
There's a tension.

1708
01:02:34,751 --> 01:02:37,520
And then there are some
of the really big tensions,

1709
01:02:37,854 --> 01:02:41,357
like, oh, are black
people human or not?

1710
01:02:42,725 --> 01:02:43,826
Oh, they're 3 1/5.

1711
01:02:44,026 --> 01:02:44,927
That's what they are.

1712
01:02:46,028 --> 01:02:47,029
So, you know, this
is the kind of stuff

1713
01:02:47,029 --> 01:02:48,364
we come up with, the
Missouri Compromise.

1714
01:02:48,598 --> 01:02:49,432
They count as 3 1/5,

1715
01:02:49,665 --> 01:02:51,701
because that way you can
count them in your population,

1716
01:02:51,701 --> 01:02:54,103
but they're not really,
you know, it's weird stuff.

1717
01:02:54,837 --> 01:02:57,306
But some people say, oh,
no, they're God's children.

1718
01:02:57,373 --> 01:02:58,207
Well, are they or not?

1719
01:02:58,875 --> 01:02:59,275
Contradictions?

1720
01:03:00,276 --> 01:03:00,777
Big ones?

1721
01:03:02,111 --> 01:03:02,512
Yeah.

1722
01:03:02,512 --> 01:03:04,947
So there are some significant
things already here.

1723
01:03:05,715 --> 01:03:08,317
And he said these
contradictions have guaranteed

1724
01:03:08,317 --> 01:03:11,320
and continue to
guarantee tension, conflict,

1725
01:03:11,554 --> 01:03:12,655
and at times violence.

1726
01:03:13,489 --> 01:03:14,090
Civil War?

1727
01:03:15,291 --> 01:03:16,092
What's that about?

1728
01:03:16,793 --> 01:03:18,427
It's about exactly this.

1729
01:03:18,795 --> 01:03:20,630
Yes, slavery,
also states rights.

1730
01:03:20,863 --> 01:03:21,974
It's the different ways of

1731
01:03:22,016 --> 01:03:23,432
life, the southern
way of life,

1732
01:03:23,666 --> 01:03:25,168
the northern
industrial way of life,

1733
01:03:25,835 --> 01:03:27,770
the secular way, the
more Christian way.

1734
01:03:28,070 --> 01:03:29,438
In the south was the
more Christian way.

1735
01:03:29,539 --> 01:03:30,473
Let's be honest about that.

1736
01:03:30,473 --> 01:03:31,741
That's how it was
kind of playing out.

1737
01:03:31,741 --> 01:03:35,511
And so these are the tensions
that were all wired in here.

1738
01:03:35,812 --> 01:03:36,913
And it's huge.

1739
01:03:37,513 --> 01:03:39,115
All right, so these
have always been there.

1740
01:03:39,148 --> 01:03:41,450
And he talks in about how
what we have done then

1741
01:03:41,450 --> 01:03:44,120
in this hybrid enlightenment
is we work through

1742
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:45,054
these differences.

1743
01:03:45,588 --> 01:03:47,523
And sometimes you work
through it in peaceful ways.

1744
01:03:47,690 --> 01:03:51,160
Sometimes it gets so tense
that it erupts into violence.

1745
01:03:51,494 --> 01:03:54,764
You get a protest, you get
a riot, you get a civil war.

1746
01:03:55,231 --> 01:03:55,865
That horrendous.

1747
01:03:56,132 --> 01:03:57,867
That's like this
huge disjuncture.

1748
01:03:58,134 --> 01:03:59,302
But we work through it.

1749
01:03:59,535 --> 01:04:00,870
And we've come
through the Civil War,

1750
01:04:00,870 --> 01:04:03,873
and now we can look back at
it and we've come through it.

1751
01:04:04,140 --> 01:04:05,074
But he says there's more.

1752
01:04:06,008 --> 01:04:07,677
That's not the
whole story either.

1753
01:04:08,110 --> 01:04:09,326
For solidarity is not just

1754
01:04:09,368 --> 01:04:10,913
about the will
to come together

1755
01:04:10,913 --> 01:04:12,715
to do the work of
democratic politics.

1756
01:04:13,082 --> 01:04:16,485
It is about the
cultural preconditions

1757
01:04:16,485 --> 01:04:19,689
and the normative sources
that make the coming together

1758
01:04:19,689 --> 01:04:21,390
possible in the first place.

1759
01:04:22,091 --> 01:04:23,192
That's the big kicker.

1760
01:04:24,327 --> 01:04:26,549
There are cultural
preconditions

1761
01:04:26,591 --> 01:04:28,030
that make it possible

1762
01:04:28,030 --> 01:04:30,166
for us to even
have a conversation.

1763
01:04:31,167 --> 01:04:34,203
So after the Civil War,
what happened next?

1764
01:04:34,904 --> 01:04:38,774
You remember they signed
the treaty and Grant says,

1765
01:04:39,075 --> 01:04:40,409
let the soldiers take
their guns home.

1766
01:04:40,476 --> 01:04:42,612
They're gonna need them for
taking care of their families.

1767
01:04:43,112 --> 01:04:44,547
You know, they gotta
get home for plowing.

1768
01:04:45,314 --> 01:04:45,948
What happened?

1769
01:04:46,048 --> 01:04:47,683
We went back to being
Americans together again

1770
01:04:47,683 --> 01:04:50,586
because there were common
things that held us together.

1771
01:04:51,187 --> 01:04:52,388
These common preconditions.

1772
01:04:52,788 --> 01:04:54,490
And there's a really
nice footnote here,

1773
01:04:54,624 --> 01:04:55,658
or one of his endnotes,

1774
01:04:56,626 --> 01:04:58,261
where he elaborates on this.

1775
01:04:58,327 --> 01:04:59,228
And I wanna give this to you

1776
01:04:59,228 --> 01:05:00,429
because it's
kind of significant

1777
01:05:01,297 --> 01:05:02,498
as soon as this
comes into focus.

1778
01:05:03,566 --> 01:05:03,766
All right.

1779
01:05:04,367 --> 01:05:06,602
So he's talking about
sociologist Durkheim,

1780
01:05:07,036 --> 01:05:09,906
who contended that
there were shared

1781
01:05:09,906 --> 01:05:14,110
pre-contractual
understandings and obligations

1782
01:05:14,110 --> 01:05:15,912
that bound people together.

1783
01:05:16,178 --> 01:05:19,148
These were found in
a shared moral code,

1784
01:05:19,148 --> 01:05:21,584
often oriented
around the sacred,

1785
01:05:22,251 --> 01:05:25,354
the shared rituals that
enacted those shared beliefs,

1786
01:05:25,388 --> 01:05:28,925
and the trust that all of
these interactions generated.

1787
01:05:29,458 --> 01:05:32,895
Every contract then
depends upon an implicit trust

1788
01:05:33,462 --> 01:05:35,140
that those involved
in agreement

1789
01:05:35,182 --> 01:05:36,432
will abide by its rules.

1790
01:05:37,066 --> 01:05:38,968
Solidarity, in short,
was an expression

1791
01:05:38,968 --> 01:05:42,972
of the conscious collective
or collective consciousness

1792
01:05:42,972 --> 01:05:44,974
of a society or social group.

1793
01:05:45,474 --> 01:05:49,245
What he means by this is
that people living together

1794
01:05:49,245 --> 01:05:51,514
in a democracy have
to have some sort

1795
01:05:51,514 --> 01:05:53,950
of shared foundation
underneath.

1796
01:05:55,117 --> 01:05:56,652
A morality that we all share.

1797
01:05:57,453 --> 01:05:58,988
A trust we have in each other.

1798
01:05:59,655 --> 01:06:02,091
Rituals that we do together
that hold us together.

1799
01:06:02,558 --> 01:06:03,793
And in the early
days of America,

1800
01:06:03,993 --> 01:06:05,127
these things were all present.

1801
01:06:06,329 --> 01:06:08,731
While we maybe don't all
agree on how God operates,

1802
01:06:09,065 --> 01:06:10,766
did everybody believe
there was a God?

1803
01:06:11,934 --> 01:06:13,336
Even Jefferson did.

1804
01:06:14,403 --> 01:06:16,238
Even the most radical
enlightenment people

1805
01:06:16,238 --> 01:06:17,473
still thought there was a God.

1806
01:06:17,740 --> 01:06:18,808
Remember, they were deists.

1807
01:06:18,808 --> 01:06:20,176
You've heard
that before, right?

1808
01:06:20,743 --> 01:06:21,752
Deists were
people who believed

1809
01:06:21,794 --> 01:06:22,712
there was a God who created,

1810
01:06:22,845 --> 01:06:24,647
but now he stands
back and is not involved.

1811
01:06:25,014 --> 01:06:26,315
So that's not the
Christian God,

1812
01:06:26,382 --> 01:06:29,518
but there is a God,
and is he in control?

1813
01:06:30,453 --> 01:06:31,587
And does he hold
you accountable?

1814
01:06:32,521 --> 01:06:32,922
Absolutely.

1815
01:06:33,289 --> 01:06:36,258
So Jefferson still believed
there was a divine being

1816
01:06:36,258 --> 01:06:38,728
who was gonna hold him
accountable for how he lived.

1817
01:06:40,596 --> 01:06:42,565
So Jefferson would be a deist.

1818
01:06:43,566 --> 01:06:45,468
Yeah, he believed
in a God, sure.

1819
01:06:45,735 --> 01:06:47,336
And it depends on how
you want to define deists,

1820
01:06:47,336 --> 01:06:48,604
but he would fall
into that category.

1821
01:06:48,871 --> 01:06:50,639
But as you said, a
deist is something

1822
01:06:50,639 --> 01:06:53,009
that God created
and walked away.

1823
01:06:53,442 --> 01:06:53,976
Yeah, yeah.

1824
01:06:54,543 --> 01:06:56,379
And so Jefferson
would say that God is,

1825
01:06:56,879 --> 01:06:59,315
you see, the reason why this
is the hybrid enlightenment

1826
01:06:59,315 --> 01:07:01,484
is because the enlightenment
wants to do things

1827
01:07:01,484 --> 01:07:03,285
without God and
on their own, but.

1828
01:07:03,285 --> 01:07:04,720
But also it was a deist.

1829
01:07:05,187 --> 01:07:06,355
A Jewish deist.

1830
01:07:06,422 --> 01:07:06,756
Correct.

1831
01:07:07,023 --> 01:07:09,158
And he believed
in this kind of God.

1832
01:07:09,158 --> 01:07:09,558
Yeah.

1833
01:07:09,892 --> 01:07:11,160
That created and walked away.

1834
01:07:11,293 --> 01:07:11,994
That's right.

1835
01:07:12,328 --> 01:07:13,963
But you think Jefferson
did not believe that.

1836
01:07:14,130 --> 01:07:15,583
No, I would say
Jefferson would

1837
01:07:15,625 --> 01:07:16,932
be sympathetic to that, yes.

1838
01:07:16,932 --> 01:07:18,467
You have a God who creates

1839
01:07:18,467 --> 01:07:21,003
because they haven't
yet gotten to the point,

1840
01:07:21,570 --> 01:07:23,005
Darwin hasn't come
on the scene yet.

1841
01:07:23,072 --> 01:07:24,974
They don't know how to account
for the beginning of things.

1842
01:07:25,107 --> 01:07:26,976
They still need God to
provide the beginning.

1843
01:07:27,610 --> 01:07:29,412
And so they're still
believing in a God.

1844
01:07:29,545 --> 01:07:30,446
They're still
confessing a God.

1845
01:07:30,479 --> 01:07:31,914
Even if they don't
like him being present,

1846
01:07:32,181 --> 01:07:33,716
they still have the
idea that there's a God.

1847
01:07:33,916 --> 01:07:35,418
Jefferson absolutely
believed in a God.

1848
01:07:35,851 --> 01:07:38,154
And he believed that he
was morally responsible

1849
01:07:38,154 --> 01:07:38,788
to that God.

1850
01:07:39,422 --> 01:07:39,789
Absolutely.

1851
01:07:40,222 --> 01:07:41,190
Does that God do miracles?

1852
01:07:41,424 --> 01:07:42,591
No, no, no, no.

1853
01:07:42,625 --> 01:07:43,426
Is he involved in the world?

1854
01:07:43,459 --> 01:07:44,760
No, but he's there.

1855
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:47,696
And there's a sense of
accountability to that God.

1856
01:07:48,364 --> 01:07:49,131
That was there.

1857
01:07:49,398 --> 01:07:52,401
And that's why in God
we trust, national motto.

1858
01:07:52,935 --> 01:07:55,204
There's a God and he's
the one who brought us here.

1859
01:07:55,504 --> 01:07:57,606
And Calvinists can
say that, so can a deist.

1860
01:07:58,107 --> 01:07:59,041
We all trust in God.

1861
01:07:59,708 --> 01:07:59,842
Good.

1862
01:08:00,376 --> 01:08:01,644
See, that's the
common foundation.

1863
01:08:01,710 --> 01:08:02,445
That's the point here.

1864
01:08:02,611 --> 01:08:04,346
There's gotta be some
kind of common foundation

1865
01:08:04,346 --> 01:08:05,948
underneath things to
hold things together.

1866
01:08:06,715 --> 01:08:08,284
All right, so then
we go forward here.

1867
01:08:09,285 --> 01:08:11,921
The sources of solidarity
drawn from America's

1868
01:08:11,921 --> 01:08:15,324
hybrid enlightenment
have partly disappeared

1869
01:08:16,125 --> 01:08:17,860
from shared
memory and practice.

1870
01:08:18,494 --> 01:08:21,297
But they also partly have
evolved into deformations

1871
01:08:21,297 --> 01:08:22,998
of their highest
and best ideals.

1872
01:08:23,332 --> 01:08:24,567
More troubling still.

1873
01:08:25,067 --> 01:08:27,103
They seem to have been
replaced by an alternative

1874
01:08:27,103 --> 01:08:30,773
and frankly,
nihilistic culture logic.

1875
01:08:31,307 --> 01:08:33,909
One that is ironically
shared across our political

1876
01:08:33,909 --> 01:08:36,312
and partisan divisions
that not only renders

1877
01:08:36,312 --> 01:08:38,147
democratic
solidarity impossible,

1878
01:08:38,914 --> 01:08:41,650
but creates the conditions
in which the authoritarian

1879
01:08:41,650 --> 01:08:44,053
impulse becomes
impossible to restrain.

1880
01:08:44,820 --> 01:08:48,491
Simply put, the authoritarian
impulse becomes manifest

1881
01:08:48,491 --> 01:08:51,227
in the attempt to address
the absence of solidarity.

1882
01:08:51,894 --> 01:08:54,263
If solidarity cannot be
generated organically,

1883
01:08:54,563 --> 01:08:56,765
it will be imposed coercively.

1884
01:08:57,500 --> 01:09:00,402
So what does Hunter
mean by solidarity?

1885
01:09:00,970 --> 01:09:03,272
He means that's
what holds us together.

1886
01:09:04,507 --> 01:09:07,409
So we have this democracy
made up of all these

1887
01:09:07,409 --> 01:09:08,644
different pluralistic people.

1888
01:09:08,744 --> 01:09:10,646
And what have we been
doing for the last 100 years?

1889
01:09:10,646 --> 01:09:14,984
Adding even more pluralism
to the pluralism of America.

1890
01:09:15,684 --> 01:09:16,952
And this gets
people frustrated,

1891
01:09:17,086 --> 01:09:18,554
which is why you get
the anti-immigrant thing.

1892
01:09:18,888 --> 01:09:21,123
We're watering down
the American ethos.

1893
01:09:21,590 --> 01:09:22,725
Well what is the
American ethos?

1894
01:09:23,025 --> 01:09:24,026
See that's the whole problem.

1895
01:09:24,593 --> 01:09:26,195
Is it we are rebuilt on
the ethos of everybody

1896
01:09:26,195 --> 01:09:28,130
come on in and
we'll figure it out?

1897
01:09:28,531 --> 01:09:30,399
Or nope, nope, nope, there's
a certain way of being.

1898
01:09:30,533 --> 01:09:31,567
Well who gets to decide?

1899
01:09:32,234 --> 01:09:33,536
This is the part of
the problem we have.

1900
01:09:33,903 --> 01:09:37,439
So the pluralism has just
gotten more and more intense.

1901
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:42,044
And more divisive
because we have people

1902
01:09:42,044 --> 01:09:44,346
who are coming in and are
not becoming assimilated.

1903
01:09:44,847 --> 01:09:46,315
They're hanging
on to their stuff.

1904
01:09:46,849 --> 01:09:47,683
And what am I in it?

1905
01:09:47,816 --> 01:09:49,084
That's not how you're
supposed to do it.

1906
01:09:49,318 --> 01:09:51,053
And so the pluralism
creates this challenge.

1907
01:09:51,253 --> 01:09:53,489
And yet we're all
Americans, we all vote,

1908
01:09:53,589 --> 01:09:54,857
and we get to
choose our leaders.

1909
01:09:55,191 --> 01:09:56,025
So that's the democracy.

1910
01:09:56,425 --> 01:09:58,727
But along with the democracy
of all this pluralism

1911
01:09:59,228 --> 01:10:00,729
is the need for
the solidarity.

1912
01:10:01,230 --> 01:10:03,499
Hence the title of the book,
Democracy and Solidarity.

1913
01:10:03,832 --> 01:10:05,401
Solidarity is what
holds us together.

1914
01:10:06,068 --> 01:10:09,338
Helps us figure out how
we're gonna solve problems.

1915
01:10:09,772 --> 01:10:11,173
Helps us work
through the differences.

1916
01:10:11,607 --> 01:10:12,798
So when the
different pluralistic

1917
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:13,709
groups have differences,

1918
01:10:14,210 --> 01:10:15,077
what gets us together?

1919
01:10:15,578 --> 01:10:17,046
How do we negotiate things?

1920
01:10:17,346 --> 01:10:18,581
That's the need
for solidarity.

1921
01:10:18,948 --> 01:10:20,373
And his point here is when

1922
01:10:20,415 --> 01:10:22,218
you're lacking
that solidarity,

1923
01:10:23,152 --> 01:10:25,688
the alternative is to
bring in a strong man

1924
01:10:25,688 --> 01:10:28,224
who just dictates
how it's going to be.

1925
01:10:28,490 --> 01:10:29,491
There, settled.

1926
01:10:30,559 --> 01:10:32,628
And he says that's
a serious temptation.

1927
01:10:33,062 --> 01:10:34,430
A lot of us have
this idea that,

1928
01:10:34,430 --> 01:10:36,131
oh, that could never
happen in America.

1929
01:10:36,632 --> 01:10:37,866
Don't be so naive.

1930
01:10:39,034 --> 01:10:40,269
And that's kind of
what Hunter's saying.

1931
01:10:40,569 --> 01:10:41,237
Don't be naive.

1932
01:10:43,472 --> 01:10:45,007
We have all these
things in place,

1933
01:10:45,007 --> 01:10:46,609
but it's not quite so simple.

1934
01:10:46,976 --> 01:10:47,109
All right?

1935
01:10:47,409 --> 01:10:49,878
All right, so that's his
kind of basic setup here.

1936
01:10:50,846 --> 01:10:53,882
And then I've just got
things highlighted here

1937
01:10:53,882 --> 01:10:54,650
I wanna pick out.

1938
01:10:55,050 --> 01:10:56,952
So I'm gonna just jump
around a little bit in this.

1939
01:10:57,953 --> 01:10:59,154
So it's not gonna be coherent,

1940
01:10:59,188 --> 01:11:00,856
but maybe it'll all
come together enough.

1941
01:11:02,758 --> 01:11:03,993
All right, he
writes this then.

1942
01:11:03,993 --> 01:11:06,395
If we cannot find a
way, all right here,

1943
01:11:06,829 --> 01:11:09,531
if we cannot find a way beyond
our political stalemates,

1944
01:11:10,032 --> 01:11:12,801
it is because we cannot
find the cultural sources

1945
01:11:12,801 --> 01:11:16,071
of common hopes or
a common vocabulary

1946
01:11:16,071 --> 01:11:19,341
for articulating those
hopes in ways that transcend

1947
01:11:19,341 --> 01:11:21,844
the impasses and
lead us beyond them.

1948
01:11:22,144 --> 01:11:23,136
See, now he's
saying again what

1949
01:11:23,178 --> 01:11:24,113
I've been trying to say here.

1950
01:11:24,346 --> 01:11:26,315
If we have these
political divides,

1951
01:11:26,982 --> 01:11:28,884
and we don't know how
to solve these stalemates,

1952
01:11:28,951 --> 01:11:30,519
we're not getting
past them, why is that?

1953
01:11:30,753 --> 01:11:33,522
It's because we don't
have the cultural sources

1954
01:11:33,522 --> 01:11:37,393
of common hopes or
a common vocabulary

1955
01:11:37,393 --> 01:11:40,229
for articulating those hopes
that help us to get past this.

1956
01:11:40,929 --> 01:11:42,264
Give you a concrete example.

1957
01:11:42,931 --> 01:11:45,134
So abortion on demand.

1958
01:11:46,268 --> 01:11:47,770
How do Christians
think about this?

1959
01:11:48,203 --> 01:11:51,907
Right with, you know,
biblically based confessional,

1960
01:11:52,308 --> 01:11:54,410
good Christians following,
how do we think about that?

1961
01:11:54,576 --> 01:11:57,046
That's killing, that's
wrong, you don't do that.

1962
01:11:57,212 --> 01:11:58,681
Because this is a new
life God has created,

1963
01:11:59,014 --> 01:12:01,350
life begins at conception,
you gotta care for that life.

1964
01:12:01,483 --> 01:12:03,285
Just like you care for an
infant who's been born,

1965
01:12:03,285 --> 01:12:05,821
you care for the preborn
infant, no question here.

1966
01:12:06,288 --> 01:12:07,891
How does somebody on the

1967
01:12:07,933 --> 01:12:10,125
progressive woke
side of things

1968
01:12:10,125 --> 01:12:10,959
think about this?

1969
01:12:11,660 --> 01:12:12,294
What's the issue?

1970
01:12:12,494 --> 01:12:13,762
You all know it, what is it?

1971
01:12:14,730 --> 01:12:16,532
Woman's choice,
woman's right to choose.

1972
01:12:17,566 --> 01:12:19,601
And Ruth Bader
Ginsburg said it.

1973
01:12:20,002 --> 01:12:22,371
When a woman has no
control over her own body

1974
01:12:22,371 --> 01:12:25,541
and lacks that autonomy,
this is the very definition

1975
01:12:25,541 --> 01:12:27,309
of tyranny being
imposed on her.

1976
01:12:30,112 --> 01:12:31,080
Compelling argument.

1977
01:12:31,747 --> 01:12:33,515
If you really
believe in autonomy,

1978
01:12:34,650 --> 01:12:36,385
if you believe that each
person has the ability

1979
01:12:36,385 --> 01:12:38,887
to do what his thing is
and nobody can force you

1980
01:12:38,887 --> 01:12:40,856
to do anything, when
somebody comes in and says,

1981
01:12:40,989 --> 01:12:43,325
you cannot or you
must with your own body,

1982
01:12:43,325 --> 01:12:45,027
that's a violation
of their autonomy.

1983
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:45,928
Is that wrong?

1984
01:12:46,929 --> 01:12:48,230
It's not wrong in logic.

1985
01:12:49,298 --> 01:12:50,532
So how do you solve that?

1986
01:12:52,267 --> 01:12:53,569
That's the problem, you see.

1987
01:12:54,203 --> 01:12:55,504
And see, it's not a matter of,

1988
01:12:56,038 --> 01:12:57,306
well, they don't
understand the argument.

1989
01:12:57,373 --> 01:12:58,173
Oh no, they do.

1990
01:12:58,841 --> 01:13:00,075
But they have a
different argument.

1991
01:13:00,609 --> 01:13:01,610
They've got a
different foundation.

1992
01:13:01,910 --> 01:13:05,314
They've got a different
goal that's driving them.

1993
01:13:05,981 --> 01:13:07,149
For the Christian,
what is ours?

1994
01:13:07,349 --> 01:13:08,384
We wanna do it God's way.

1995
01:13:09,485 --> 01:13:11,320
For somebody on that
side, what's their goal?

1996
01:13:11,553 --> 01:13:13,922
I want people to be free to be
what they're supposed to be,

1997
01:13:14,390 --> 01:13:15,157
individual autonomy.

1998
01:13:15,324 --> 01:13:17,426
Medically assisted
suicide can be.

1999
01:13:17,426 --> 01:13:18,260
Yes, it can.

2000
01:13:18,527 --> 01:13:22,464
Just this legitimate
form of medical health

2001
01:13:23,699 --> 01:13:27,102
and healthcare for
somebody and for a woman

2002
01:13:27,102 --> 01:13:31,206
and I passed right by the side
on my way over here on 944

2003
01:13:32,307 --> 01:13:35,744
that was promoting
amendment three

2004
01:13:36,712 --> 01:13:39,148
and it mentioned
nothing about abortion

2005
01:13:39,148 --> 01:13:42,317
except a woman's
reproductive health rights.

2006
01:13:42,384 --> 01:13:43,185
Yeah, no, that's right.

2007
01:13:43,452 --> 01:13:44,253
And you're exactly right.

2008
01:13:44,353 --> 01:13:45,687
Assisted suicide
plays into this.

2009
01:13:45,888 --> 01:13:46,989
Euthanasia
plays into all this.

2010
01:13:47,356 --> 01:13:49,324
And see, it's the idea of
the personal autonomy.

2011
01:13:49,391 --> 01:13:50,793
It's my body to do
what I want with.

2012
01:13:51,126 --> 01:13:53,595
But Christians, we
don't believe that.

2013
01:13:54,963 --> 01:13:55,731
Not my body.

2014
01:13:56,465 --> 01:13:57,299
It's God's gift to me.

2015
01:13:57,633 --> 01:13:58,867
I'm responsible
for how I live.

2016
01:13:59,034 --> 01:13:59,968
I'm accountable to God.

2017
01:14:00,335 --> 01:14:02,871
You see, that's what
Hunter's kinda getting at here

2018
01:14:02,871 --> 01:14:04,706
and abortion is one
of these first issues

2019
01:14:04,706 --> 01:14:06,508
that has really
brought this to the fore.

2020
01:14:06,842 --> 01:14:08,644
How do you solve that?

2021
01:14:09,745 --> 01:14:11,380
How do you reconcile that?

2022
01:14:12,214 --> 01:14:15,984
And the answer is,
well, there isn't one.

2023
01:14:17,085 --> 01:14:18,053
That's the problem.

2024
01:14:18,854 --> 01:14:20,422
You see, we would
solve it as Christians

2025
01:14:20,422 --> 01:14:21,757
by saying, well,
just yield to God.

2026
01:14:22,191 --> 01:14:23,192
Great, good answer.

2027
01:14:23,692 --> 01:14:27,229
But in a democracy where
we don't get to dictate that

2028
01:14:27,229 --> 01:14:28,764
and we don't
get to force that,

2029
01:14:28,931 --> 01:14:30,466
we have to live
with the plurality,

2030
01:14:31,066 --> 01:14:35,471
how do you reconcile one group
that says, that's killing,

2031
01:14:36,138 --> 01:14:36,872
and another
group that says, no,

2032
01:14:36,905 --> 01:14:39,007
this is my prerogative
and my autonomy,

2033
01:14:39,107 --> 01:14:40,909
how do you reconcile this?

2034
01:14:41,710 --> 01:14:44,780
And what we're beginning
to realize is you don't.

2035
01:14:45,147 --> 01:14:46,482
It's just a matter of
who gets the most votes.

2036
01:14:46,482 --> 01:14:46,615
Yes?

2037
01:14:47,449 --> 01:14:51,854
So behind the word,
the cultural sources

2038
01:14:52,888 --> 01:14:55,824
of common hope or
common vocabulary,

2039
01:14:56,425 --> 01:15:00,395
particularly the votes are
created by the Holy Bible?

2040
01:15:00,796 --> 01:15:01,730
That's exactly right.

2041
01:15:01,864 --> 01:15:04,099
We would say a common
hope would be the Bible.

2042
01:15:04,733 --> 01:15:07,069
But did the progressive
left think that?

2043
01:15:07,069 --> 01:15:07,603
No.

2044
01:15:08,170 --> 01:15:09,037
No, of course not.

2045
01:15:09,071 --> 01:15:10,806
So we can't have the...

2046
01:15:10,806 --> 01:15:11,907
Precisely.

2047
01:15:12,107 --> 01:15:14,309
But this normative...

2048
01:15:14,309 --> 01:15:15,110
That's right.

2049
01:15:15,110 --> 01:15:18,547
What's the point we had when
this nation was first founded?

2050
01:15:18,914 --> 01:15:20,916
Well, when this nation
was first founded,

2051
01:15:21,116 --> 01:15:22,951
we were at a different place
in the hybrid enlightenment.

2052
01:15:23,352 --> 01:15:26,188
And yet, the very
principles that this nation

2053
01:15:26,188 --> 01:15:28,490
is functioning at have
always been in place,

2054
01:15:28,490 --> 01:15:30,692
which is the majority
gets to decide.

2055
01:15:31,593 --> 01:15:34,429
And see, this is the kind
of the uncomfortable reality.

2056
01:15:34,763 --> 01:15:38,033
Our constitution is
founded not on the Bible.

2057
01:15:38,834 --> 01:15:42,337
Our constitution is
founded not on divine law.

2058
01:15:42,871 --> 01:15:45,274
Our constitution is
founded on we the people.

2059
01:15:45,874 --> 01:15:47,609
The people get to decide.

2060
01:15:48,277 --> 01:15:49,545
And so that means in America,

2061
01:15:49,545 --> 01:15:51,013
and it has always
been this way,

2062
01:15:51,246 --> 01:15:52,848
and you can read your
constitution if you doubt me,

2063
01:15:53,115 --> 01:15:53,949
it has always been this way.

2064
01:15:54,182 --> 01:15:55,584
Who decides what's
right and wrong?

2065
01:15:56,184 --> 01:15:57,252
51% of the people.

2066
01:15:57,920 --> 01:15:58,754
That's how it works.

2067
01:15:59,888 --> 01:16:01,623
That's how it has
always worked.

2068
01:16:02,491 --> 01:16:03,892
It's just that
for a long time,

2069
01:16:04,192 --> 01:16:06,895
51% of the people agreed
with us as Christians.

2070
01:16:07,529 --> 01:16:08,430
And it was all good.

2071
01:16:08,830 --> 01:16:11,300
But now when you start getting
51% who don't agree with us,

2072
01:16:11,300 --> 01:16:14,369
we're like, whoa, whoa,
what are you doing here?

2073
01:16:14,570 --> 01:16:15,904
You're walking
away from your roots.

2074
01:16:16,071 --> 01:16:16,838
No, they're not.

2075
01:16:16,972 --> 01:16:18,874
They're just taking the
roots in a new direction.

2076
01:16:19,474 --> 01:16:20,576
The roots have
always been there.

2077
01:16:20,642 --> 01:16:21,343
They're always the same.

2078
01:16:22,244 --> 01:16:23,912
That's what we've got to
come to terms with, guys.

2079
01:16:23,912 --> 01:16:25,447
And that's what Hunter's
trying to point out.

2080
01:16:25,814 --> 01:16:28,483
Now, if, and now here's what
I'm different from Hunter.

2081
01:16:28,750 --> 01:16:29,685
Hunter is trying to figure out

2082
01:16:29,685 --> 01:16:31,320
how do we hold
on to the democracy

2083
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:33,021
and keep America
from blowing up?

2084
01:16:33,889 --> 01:16:35,223
Okay, that's one question.

2085
01:16:35,591 --> 01:16:36,992
And the only answer
there is gonna be

2086
01:16:36,992 --> 01:16:38,026
somebody's gonna
have to compromise.

2087
01:16:39,094 --> 01:16:40,762
And in the meantime, we
have the Christians saying,

2088
01:16:40,762 --> 01:16:43,432
how much of the Bible am
I gonna compromise on?

2089
01:16:44,032 --> 01:16:45,267
I know my answer.

2090
01:16:46,234 --> 01:16:46,935
It's a big zero.

2091
01:16:47,769 --> 01:16:49,338
Well, that makes
me a bad player.

2092
01:16:50,372 --> 01:16:53,542
I'm not a very good
Democrat in America

2093
01:16:53,542 --> 01:16:54,810
or a Republican in America

2094
01:16:54,810 --> 01:16:56,745
because I don't play
compromise games

2095
01:16:56,745 --> 01:16:57,879
when it comes to God's truth.

2096
01:16:58,480 --> 01:16:59,815
That makes me a problem.

2097
01:17:00,682 --> 01:17:02,184
That's what we're
beginning to experience

2098
01:17:02,184 --> 01:17:03,085
in the world today.

2099
01:17:03,485 --> 01:17:05,237
The church has
become a problem

2100
01:17:05,279 --> 01:17:06,622
for America functioning.

2101
01:17:06,955 --> 01:17:08,023
How do we solve that?

2102
01:17:08,390 --> 01:17:08,857
I don't know.

2103
01:17:09,558 --> 01:17:11,393
I just know what it
means to be faithful.

2104
01:17:11,727 --> 01:17:12,449
And that's what I think we

2105
01:17:12,491 --> 01:17:13,428
need to be
paying attention to.

2106
01:17:13,629 --> 01:17:14,963
And that's kind of what
Hunter's pointing out.

2107
01:17:15,330 --> 01:17:17,532
Hunter's book is really
helpful because it helps you,

2108
01:17:17,933 --> 01:17:19,297
it finally disabuses you of

2109
01:17:19,339 --> 01:17:21,003
any notion of
Christian nation.

2110
01:17:21,136 --> 01:17:22,070
We just gotta get
back to our roots.

2111
01:17:22,504 --> 01:17:25,073
No, no, no, no, no.

2112
01:17:25,207 --> 01:17:26,408
Just stop it with that.

2113
01:17:27,009 --> 01:17:28,644
It's not where
we're going here.

2114
01:17:28,910 --> 01:17:32,147
And see, beating amendment
three, which I hope happens,

2115
01:17:32,381 --> 01:17:33,782
is not gonna be
the solution either.

2116
01:17:34,483 --> 01:17:36,818
Because if we win this time,
you think 10 years from now,

2117
01:17:36,952 --> 01:17:37,753
everybody's gonna
change their mind

2118
01:17:37,753 --> 01:17:38,854
and decide it was
a good thing to,

2119
01:17:38,854 --> 01:17:40,489
stop a woman's
right to choose.

2120
01:17:41,523 --> 01:17:42,491
Think that's gonna slow down?

2121
01:17:43,425 --> 01:17:44,860
How many times who we've had,

2122
01:17:45,127 --> 01:17:46,294
has it mattered who's
been in the White House,

2123
01:17:46,395 --> 01:17:47,529
have we stopped
the gay agenda?

2124
01:17:47,696 --> 01:17:48,830
Have we slowed
that down at all?

2125
01:17:49,931 --> 01:17:53,669
Has that had even in a hitch
in the Ford progress there?

2126
01:17:54,302 --> 01:17:55,470
We're way past gay.

2127
01:17:55,771 --> 01:17:56,705
Now we're to transgender.

2128
01:17:57,105 --> 01:17:57,606
Now we're to,

2129
01:17:58,340 --> 01:17:59,591
will it be too far before we

2130
01:17:59,633 --> 01:18:01,109
start talking
about bestiality?

2131
01:18:01,243 --> 01:18:03,245
No, no, no way.

2132
01:18:03,612 --> 01:18:05,847
Give me a, just
give at a time.

2133
01:18:07,015 --> 01:18:08,250
This is where it's going.

2134
01:18:08,250 --> 01:18:11,787
And we're not stopping that
by who we vote into office.

2135
01:18:12,220 --> 01:18:13,155
This is the culture.

2136
01:18:13,321 --> 01:18:14,056
This is where
things are going.

2137
01:18:14,122 --> 01:18:15,891
This is the kind of stuff
Hunter's pointing out in here.

2138
01:18:16,191 --> 01:18:19,594
And as Christians, we need
to just face that and say,

2139
01:18:19,728 --> 01:18:21,229
so what's that mean for us?

2140
01:18:22,764 --> 01:18:24,266
Well, we have a
lot of work to do,

2141
01:18:24,399 --> 01:18:25,834
but wait, let's
be careful here.

2142
01:18:26,201 --> 01:18:27,769
Where does the work
need to be focused?

2143
01:18:28,236 --> 01:18:30,605
My argument is my
work is not worrying

2144
01:18:30,605 --> 01:18:32,174
about the world all around me.

2145
01:18:32,474 --> 01:18:35,277
My work is worrying about
my family, my congregation.

2146
01:18:35,610 --> 01:18:36,945
I've got my hands full there.

2147
01:18:37,546 --> 01:18:38,580
Let's focus there.

2148
01:18:39,014 --> 01:18:39,514
And then let's,

2149
01:18:39,948 --> 01:18:41,583
and this is where I'm going
with the last part of this.

2150
01:18:41,850 --> 01:18:44,219
Let's think about the
witness I'm giving there

2151
01:18:44,219 --> 01:18:45,654
to the world around me.

2152
01:18:46,354 --> 01:18:48,490
And so I need to cut
close to the chase here,

2153
01:18:48,523 --> 01:18:49,891
but a couple questions
and I'm gonna open it up

2154
01:18:49,891 --> 01:18:51,693
for the wide open Q&A,
but go ahead, quick here.

2155
01:18:52,127 --> 01:18:54,262
The last one here was
a little bit here today.

2156
01:18:55,464 --> 01:18:58,366
Why do you think
it's long been through

2157
01:18:58,900 --> 01:19:00,669
the big day of the panel

2158
01:19:01,336 --> 01:19:04,773
in terms of creating a lot
of history in our culture?

2159
01:19:05,073 --> 01:19:05,674
Which I missed.

2160
01:19:06,408 --> 01:19:08,110
You said the internet,
then you said a couple terms

2161
01:19:08,110 --> 01:19:08,844
and I missed those.

2162
01:19:09,678 --> 01:19:13,882
I'm just wondering what
impact on small fringe groups

2163
01:19:13,882 --> 01:19:17,452
against the big megaphone
getting on the internet.

2164
01:19:17,619 --> 01:19:19,755
Okay, yeah, okay, those
are the words I missed.

2165
01:19:20,055 --> 01:19:21,723
Yeah, the small fringe
groups with their megaphone

2166
01:19:21,723 --> 01:19:22,257
on the internet.

2167
01:19:22,524 --> 01:19:25,060
Yeah, the internet
has accelerated

2168
01:19:25,102 --> 01:19:26,795
these things enormously

2169
01:19:26,795 --> 01:19:28,355
because you
have the transferral

2170
01:19:28,397 --> 01:19:29,464
information like that.

2171
01:19:29,865 --> 01:19:31,800
And now you have people
who can gain a following

2172
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:34,169
and people who can
put their ideas out there

2173
01:19:34,169 --> 01:19:35,103
and people grab onto it.

2174
01:19:35,103 --> 01:19:38,206
So yes, the social
media and the internet

2175
01:19:38,206 --> 01:19:41,276
has dramatically accelerated
how fast these things

2176
01:19:41,276 --> 01:19:43,445
are disseminated and
how quickly things change.

2177
01:19:44,412 --> 01:19:45,514
We're not
changing that either.

2178
01:19:46,114 --> 01:19:47,482
Nobody's gonna throw
away their internet

2179
01:19:47,482 --> 01:19:48,683
or throw away
their cell phones.

2180
01:19:49,151 --> 01:19:51,953
And so we can
decry this influence,

2181
01:19:51,953 --> 01:19:53,155
but it's real and it's there.

2182
01:19:53,288 --> 01:19:54,656
And it's had a
profound influence.

2183
01:19:54,790 --> 01:19:57,025
Technology is a big
player in where we are

2184
01:19:57,025 --> 01:19:58,326
as a world today, no doubt.

2185
01:19:59,494 --> 01:20:00,061
Jonah.

2186
01:20:10,472 --> 01:20:10,872
Right.

2187
01:20:25,687 --> 01:20:27,455
Yeah, you're saying
a lot of things very well

2188
01:20:27,455 --> 01:20:28,623
and I agree with you, yeah.

2189
01:20:29,191 --> 01:20:32,727
We need maybe think about
what our priorities really are

2190
01:20:32,727 --> 01:20:35,030
and what matters to
us and the idea of that.

2191
01:20:35,797 --> 01:20:37,966
And this is the whole
idea of even upholding

2192
01:20:37,966 --> 01:20:40,135
American democracy
and trying to preserve that.

2193
01:20:40,235 --> 01:20:40,969
Is that really our goal?

2194
01:20:41,136 --> 01:20:42,204
And that's what I'm
trying to get at here.

2195
01:20:42,504 --> 01:20:44,706
If we're people who
are following Christ

2196
01:20:45,140 --> 01:20:47,676
and we happen to be Lutheran
people following Christ,

2197
01:20:47,709 --> 01:20:49,177
what's that mean for us?

2198
01:20:49,611 --> 01:20:52,614
And I really want us to think
harder about what it means

2199
01:20:52,614 --> 01:20:54,049
if we're gonna
confess Jesus as Lord,

2200
01:20:54,249 --> 01:20:55,951
how do we live in
the world around us?

2201
01:20:55,984 --> 01:20:56,985
What's that look like?

2202
01:20:56,985 --> 01:20:59,688
Okay, and the witness we give.

2203
01:21:00,155 --> 01:21:01,056
I've got here a couple things.

2204
01:21:01,523 --> 01:21:02,724
I'm gonna cut short on Hunter

2205
01:21:02,724 --> 01:21:03,825
because I just
don't wanna get,

2206
01:21:04,659 --> 01:21:06,228
I would love to give
you more of that,

2207
01:21:06,294 --> 01:21:07,462
but you've gotten
a taste for it, okay?

2208
01:21:07,462 --> 01:21:08,530
You kind of get
what he's up to.

2209
01:21:08,830 --> 01:21:11,099
What he does in his book then
is that was just his preface.

2210
01:21:11,566 --> 01:21:12,934
Then he goes through
all of his chapters

2211
01:21:12,934 --> 01:21:16,571
and he makes his case for why
the culture matters so much

2212
01:21:16,571 --> 01:21:18,039
and he starts to
impact that more.

2213
01:21:18,373 --> 01:21:20,108
And then he traces
through some of the history

2214
01:21:20,108 --> 01:21:21,282
and some of the,
he's got names

2215
01:21:21,324 --> 01:21:22,310
like you wouldn't believe,

2216
01:21:22,410 --> 01:21:24,212
just everybody you can
think of, it's all in there.

2217
01:21:24,412 --> 01:21:26,448
And he goes through the
history of how things were

2218
01:21:26,448 --> 01:21:29,451
and he reminds you of things
that in the history of America

2219
01:21:29,451 --> 01:21:31,786
where there were strong
vitriol and all these things,

2220
01:21:31,887 --> 01:21:33,221
but we've worked through
it, we've worked through it,

2221
01:21:33,221 --> 01:21:33,889
we've worked through it.

2222
01:21:34,155 --> 01:21:35,156
But then he gets
down to the present

2223
01:21:35,156 --> 01:21:38,326
and his big concern
is we are now lacking

2224
01:21:38,326 --> 01:21:41,763
the very foundations
that allow us to negotiate

2225
01:21:41,763 --> 01:21:44,766
these disagreements
in the plurality,

2226
01:21:45,367 --> 01:21:46,801
in the pluralism
that is democracy.

2227
01:21:47,235 --> 01:21:48,370
How do we solve those?

2228
01:21:48,870 --> 01:21:50,105
And we're at an impasse.

2229
01:21:50,405 --> 01:21:51,806
We're not sure how
to solve them anymore.

2230
01:21:52,073 --> 01:21:54,542
This is what's new
because in the old days,

2231
01:21:54,542 --> 01:21:56,244
you still had the sense,
well, there's a God

2232
01:21:56,778 --> 01:21:57,846
and there's a common morality.

2233
01:21:57,913 --> 01:21:58,780
We know what's
right and wrong.

2234
01:21:58,947 --> 01:22:00,348
We don't even know what's
right and wrong anymore.

2235
01:22:00,415 --> 01:22:02,684
We define it differently
and there are different ways

2236
01:22:02,684 --> 01:22:04,719
of defining what's
good because is it good

2237
01:22:04,719 --> 01:22:05,954
for a woman to
have an abortion?

2238
01:22:06,254 --> 01:22:07,689
Well, people say that depends.

2239
01:22:07,889 --> 01:22:08,990
We would say, no,
it's always wrong.

2240
01:22:09,357 --> 01:22:10,692
And they would say,
no, no, no, it depends.

2241
01:22:11,126 --> 01:22:12,034
Well, we're already defining

2242
01:22:12,076 --> 01:22:13,194
good differently
now, aren't we?

2243
01:22:13,428 --> 01:22:14,663
And our morality
is not the same.

2244
01:22:15,430 --> 01:22:17,599
And this is why
Christians get frustrated

2245
01:22:17,599 --> 01:22:19,801
because we don't realize that
people have different rules

2246
01:22:19,801 --> 01:22:22,270
that they're operating with
and it changes everything.

2247
01:22:22,804 --> 01:22:25,206
All right, now, what I
wanna share with you then,

2248
01:22:25,507 --> 01:22:26,775
I was the time
I have here left

2249
01:22:26,775 --> 01:22:28,810
and I'm gonna give
you lots of time for Q&A.

2250
01:22:29,044 --> 01:22:31,446
This is a little section
from Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

2251
01:22:32,414 --> 01:22:34,916
And this has become for
me really an important insight

2252
01:22:34,916 --> 01:22:37,886
that he gives about, and I'm
making it small on purpose,

2253
01:22:37,986 --> 01:22:38,687
so don't bother trying.

2254
01:22:40,588 --> 01:22:41,623
I don't want you to read yet.

2255
01:22:42,223 --> 01:22:43,224
There, no, see.

2256
01:22:44,292 --> 01:22:48,229
And so Bonhoeffer wrote
this when he was imprisoned

2257
01:22:48,229 --> 01:22:52,233
in Berlin in 43 after
he had been arrested

2258
01:22:52,233 --> 01:22:55,070
for being a spy
against the Third Reich.

2259
01:22:55,403 --> 01:22:56,972
And he wrote his book, Ethics.

2260
01:22:57,105 --> 01:22:58,073
This is part of his ethics.

2261
01:22:58,406 --> 01:23:00,408
This is the little
essay that's called

2262
01:23:00,408 --> 01:23:02,243
Christ, Reality, and Good.

2263
01:23:02,477 --> 01:23:04,079
And in the middle
of this essay,

2264
01:23:04,212 --> 01:23:07,215
he's thinking about the inner
Christ, reality, and good.

2265
01:23:07,282 --> 01:23:08,615
He's thinking about how the

2266
01:23:08,657 --> 01:23:10,285
church interacts
with the world

2267
01:23:10,285 --> 01:23:12,187
and he makes a
really great argument

2268
01:23:12,187 --> 01:23:14,723
that Christians need
to live in two realities

2269
01:23:15,323 --> 01:23:17,382
or one reality,
which is Christ

2270
01:23:17,424 --> 01:23:19,194
who has come into the world

2271
01:23:19,194 --> 01:23:21,730
and the world which is
the object of God's love.

2272
01:23:22,764 --> 01:23:25,767
And we can't have just Jesus
alone and ignore the world,

2273
01:23:25,867 --> 01:23:28,103
nor can we just run off into
the world and ignore Christ.

2274
01:23:28,236 --> 01:23:29,371
We need to hold
these things together.

2275
01:23:29,437 --> 01:23:30,705
We live with both
of these at once.

2276
01:23:31,172 --> 01:23:32,407
So then he explores
the question,

2277
01:23:33,108 --> 01:23:36,711
how much space does
the church need in the world

2278
01:23:36,711 --> 01:23:38,246
and what does the
church owe to the world?

2279
01:23:38,313 --> 01:23:42,484
And his argument is that
the church owes the world

2280
01:23:42,484 --> 01:23:48,023
a clear and strong witness
of God's reality in the world.

2281
01:23:48,990 --> 01:23:51,292
And I completely
agree with him on this.

2282
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:53,695
Why is the church even here?

2283
01:23:54,329 --> 01:23:56,664
Why doesn't God
just take us up

2284
01:23:56,664 --> 01:23:59,501
to the divine reality
in heaven now?

2285
01:24:00,101 --> 01:24:02,704
We're here to
witness His truth.

2286
01:24:03,004 --> 01:24:05,407
We're here to bring
his gospel to others.

2287
01:24:05,507 --> 01:24:08,109
We're here to enlarge
the kingdom of God.

2288
01:24:08,243 --> 01:24:09,411
That's why we're here.

2289
01:24:09,411 --> 01:24:11,980
And so the church
has a responsibility

2290
01:24:12,447 --> 01:24:16,951
not to take care of itself,
but to take care of the world.

2291
01:24:17,552 --> 01:24:19,454
Thy will be done on
earth as it is in heaven.

2292
01:24:19,454 --> 01:24:19,888
All right.

2293
01:24:20,655 --> 01:24:21,923
Thy will be done on
earth as it is in heaven.

2294
01:24:22,223 --> 01:24:22,524
That's right.

2295
01:24:22,590 --> 01:24:23,792
That's our divine advantage.

2296
01:24:23,992 --> 01:24:24,492
It is.

2297
01:24:24,926 --> 01:24:26,394
That's Christ's will for us.

2298
01:24:26,394 --> 01:24:26,694
Yep.

2299
01:24:27,028 --> 01:24:27,495
Our gain.

2300
01:24:27,929 --> 01:24:30,498
Now, there's some
great stuff he has in here.

2301
01:24:31,332 --> 01:24:33,001
So let's get into this.

2302
01:24:33,601 --> 01:24:35,336
He starts by
thinking about Jesus.

2303
01:24:36,071 --> 01:24:36,938
And this is Bonhoeffer.

2304
01:24:36,938 --> 01:24:40,809
If God in Jesus Christ
claims space in the world,

2305
01:24:41,709 --> 01:24:42,977
even though it
be only a stable

2306
01:24:42,977 --> 01:24:44,646
because there was
no room in the inn,

2307
01:24:44,846 --> 01:24:46,147
then in this narrow space,

2308
01:24:46,314 --> 01:24:48,750
he comprises together
the whole reality of the world

2309
01:24:48,750 --> 01:24:50,104
at once and reveals the

2310
01:24:50,146 --> 01:24:52,087
ultimate basis
of this reality.

2311
01:24:52,587 --> 01:24:53,688
So what's he getting at?

2312
01:24:53,922 --> 01:24:55,423
How much space
does Jesus take up

2313
01:24:55,423 --> 01:24:56,491
when he comes into the world?

2314
01:24:58,660 --> 01:24:59,494
Size of an infant.

2315
01:25:00,695 --> 01:25:02,363
10 pounder if you're
really big, okay?

2316
01:25:03,331 --> 01:25:03,998
Six if you're lucky.

2317
01:25:04,365 --> 01:25:04,666
All right.

2318
01:25:04,966 --> 01:25:06,034
I'm thinking about
the mom here.

2319
01:25:06,034 --> 01:25:08,670
And so an infant,

2320
01:25:09,737 --> 01:25:10,738
and this is kind of,

2321
01:25:10,738 --> 01:25:11,806
he's a little comical.

2322
01:25:12,507 --> 01:25:13,908
How much space
does Jesus need?

2323
01:25:14,075 --> 01:25:14,576
Not much.

2324
01:25:15,610 --> 01:25:18,613
But is now he in the
world with the human body,

2325
01:25:19,147 --> 01:25:19,814
part of the world?

2326
01:25:20,215 --> 01:25:21,216
And why did he come?

2327
01:25:22,684 --> 01:25:23,551
To redeem the world.

2328
01:25:24,752 --> 01:25:25,753
To bring it back to God.

2329
01:25:26,588 --> 01:25:28,389
See, he didn't come just
to do a rescue operation

2330
01:25:28,389 --> 01:25:29,891
and get a few
lucky people out.

2331
01:25:29,991 --> 01:25:31,426
He came to get the
whole creation back

2332
01:25:31,426 --> 01:25:33,661
and he does it becoming
part of the creation

2333
01:25:33,661 --> 01:25:35,230
that takes up this much space.

2334
01:25:35,530 --> 01:25:36,030
Just a baby.

2335
01:25:36,831 --> 01:25:37,765
Not much space at all.

2336
01:25:38,399 --> 01:25:39,701
All right, so he goes on.

2337
01:25:40,702 --> 01:25:43,371
So too, the church of
Jesus Christ is the place,

2338
01:25:43,471 --> 01:25:45,373
in other words, the
space in the world

2339
01:25:45,940 --> 01:25:49,110
at which the reign of
Jesus Christ over the world

2340
01:25:49,110 --> 01:25:50,745
is evidenced and proclaimed.

2341
01:25:51,246 --> 01:25:52,013
There you have it.

2342
01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:53,248
That's what the
church is here.

2343
01:25:53,715 --> 01:25:56,551
To evidence and proclaim
the reign of Jesus Christ

2344
01:25:56,551 --> 01:25:58,786
over the world
because Jesus is Lord.

2345
01:25:59,554 --> 01:26:00,855
And the church,
we proclaim that.

2346
01:26:01,389 --> 01:26:04,893
This space of the church
then is not something

2347
01:26:04,893 --> 01:26:07,128
which exists on
its own account.

2348
01:26:07,795 --> 01:26:08,997
We're not here for ourselves.

2349
01:26:10,031 --> 01:26:12,300
It is from the outset
something which reaches out

2350
01:26:12,300 --> 01:26:13,835
far beyond itself.

2351
01:26:14,369 --> 01:26:16,404
For indeed it is not the
space of some kind of

2352
01:26:16,404 --> 01:26:19,407
cultural association such
as we would have to fight

2353
01:26:19,407 --> 01:26:21,576
for its own survival
in the world.

2354
01:26:22,243 --> 01:26:24,345
But it is the place
where testimony is given

2355
01:26:24,345 --> 01:26:27,682
to the foundation of all
reality in Jesus Christ.

2356
01:26:28,516 --> 01:26:32,687
The church is the place where
testimony and serious thought

2357
01:26:32,687 --> 01:26:35,790
are given to God's
reconciliation of the world

2358
01:26:35,790 --> 01:26:39,727
with himself in Christ to
his having so loved the world

2359
01:26:39,727 --> 01:26:41,696
that he gave his
son for its sake.

2360
01:26:42,497 --> 01:26:46,501
The space of the church
is not there in order to try

2361
01:26:46,501 --> 01:26:49,704
to deprive the world
of a piece of its territory

2362
01:26:49,704 --> 01:26:52,907
but precisely in order
to prove to the world

2363
01:26:52,907 --> 01:26:54,409
that it is still the world.

2364
01:26:54,909 --> 01:26:58,513
The world which is loved by
God and reconciled with Him.

2365
01:26:59,314 --> 01:27:01,549
The church has neither
the wish nor the obligation

2366
01:27:01,549 --> 01:27:05,153
to extend her space to
cover the space of the world.

2367
01:27:05,753 --> 01:27:07,555
She asks for no more
space than she needs

2368
01:27:07,555 --> 01:27:11,593
for the purpose of serving
the world, serving the world,

2369
01:27:11,593 --> 01:27:14,429
by bearing witness
to Jesus Christ

2370
01:27:14,963 --> 01:27:16,354
and to the reconciliation of

2371
01:27:16,396 --> 01:27:18,032
the world with
God through Him.

2372
01:27:18,600 --> 01:27:20,562
The only way in
which the church

2373
01:27:20,604 --> 01:27:22,303
can defend her own territory

2374
01:27:22,303 --> 01:27:24,205
is by fighting not for it

2375
01:27:24,772 --> 01:27:26,507
but for the salvation
of the world.

2376
01:27:27,875 --> 01:27:29,744
Otherwise, it is beautiful,

2377
01:27:30,211 --> 01:27:33,548
otherwise the church
becomes a religious society

2378
01:27:33,548 --> 01:27:35,883
which fights in
its own interest

2379
01:27:35,883 --> 01:27:39,887
and thereby ceases at
once to be the church of God

2380
01:27:39,887 --> 01:27:40,955
and of the world.

2381
01:27:42,023 --> 01:27:43,091
Isn't that brilliant?

2382
01:27:44,892 --> 01:27:50,265
Now, it is so compelling and
I think he's exactly right.

2383
01:27:50,965 --> 01:27:53,534
But if he's right, that
means the church needs

2384
01:27:53,534 --> 01:27:55,703
to get serious about
what are we here to do.

2385
01:27:56,404 --> 01:27:58,473
We're not here to
fight for our own space.

2386
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:02,143
We're not here to fight for
our rights against the world.

2387
01:28:03,111 --> 01:28:04,846
We're not here
to beat the world.

2388
01:28:05,713 --> 01:28:07,215
We're here to save the world.

2389
01:28:08,316 --> 01:28:10,685
World is not our enemy
and that world out there

2390
01:28:10,685 --> 01:28:12,687
is really nasty
and really mean

2391
01:28:12,687 --> 01:28:15,790
and says really abhorrent
things and really is offensive

2392
01:28:15,790 --> 01:28:18,226
and really is shameful and
really bothers us sometimes.

2393
01:28:18,660 --> 01:28:21,663
We don't like it and yet
that's the world God loves.

2394
01:28:22,864 --> 01:28:24,866
We can't ever
be dismissive of it.

2395
01:28:24,899 --> 01:28:25,667
We can't hate it.

2396
01:28:25,767 --> 01:28:26,668
We can't reject it.

2397
01:28:26,934 --> 01:28:30,305
We've got to keep on loving
it even when it is pushing

2398
01:28:30,305 --> 01:28:31,839
against everything
that God wants

2399
01:28:32,273 --> 01:28:34,909
because that's the world
that God sent us to care for

2400
01:28:34,909 --> 01:28:35,777
and we've got to.

2401
01:28:36,144 --> 01:28:37,745
So then we have to be asking
the question as a church,

2402
01:28:37,745 --> 01:28:39,347
how do we do that best?

2403
01:28:40,381 --> 01:28:42,850
And I think what Bonhoeffer is
suggesting is we don't do it

2404
01:28:42,850 --> 01:28:44,152
by fighting for
our own rights.

2405
01:28:44,519 --> 01:28:46,854
We don't do it by trying
to force our agenda.

2406
01:28:46,854 --> 01:28:52,160
We do it by being the church
faithfully and consistently

2407
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:55,196
and persistently and
loving our neighbor,

2408
01:28:55,530 --> 01:28:57,532
especially our near
neighbor and loving them

2409
01:28:57,532 --> 01:29:00,768
and caring for them and
speaking God's truth to them

2410
01:29:00,768 --> 01:29:03,371
in ways winsome but compelling

2411
01:29:03,371 --> 01:29:05,373
and ways that are
consistently doing this.

2412
01:29:05,807 --> 01:29:07,642
So where I think
we need to be,

2413
01:29:07,742 --> 01:29:09,477
if we're gonna
confess Jesus as Lord,

2414
01:29:10,445 --> 01:29:12,547
I think the intersection
of church and state

2415
01:29:12,547 --> 01:29:15,016
really boils down
to let's be serious

2416
01:29:15,016 --> 01:29:17,485
about following Christ
in our own personal lives

2417
01:29:18,219 --> 01:29:21,522
and in my families and
in our congregations.

2418
01:29:21,856 --> 01:29:23,524
And if we get congregations
that are actually

2419
01:29:23,524 --> 01:29:25,727
gonna be serious about
living the Christian life

2420
01:29:26,327 --> 01:29:28,996
in their own homes and
then in the community

2421
01:29:28,996 --> 01:29:31,933
in which they're placed,
caring for their neighbors,

2422
01:29:32,433 --> 01:29:33,368
looking out for their needs,

2423
01:29:33,634 --> 01:29:35,069
figuring out what they
need, what we can do,

2424
01:29:35,169 --> 01:29:36,197
and speaking God's truth in

2425
01:29:36,239 --> 01:29:37,505
that, now we're
being faithful.

2426
01:29:38,406 --> 01:29:42,143
And what we can do to
shape national politics,

2427
01:29:42,310 --> 01:29:44,645
we vote, we talk
to our neighbors,

2428
01:29:44,645 --> 01:29:48,349
we do what we can, but we're
not that worried about it.

2429
01:29:48,950 --> 01:29:51,386
Because you see, whatever
happens in an election

2430
01:29:51,386 --> 01:29:53,054
is not the end of the world.

2431
01:29:53,821 --> 01:29:55,022
Because whatever
happens in an election

2432
01:29:55,022 --> 01:29:57,024
is all within God's
plan, isn't it?

2433
01:29:57,592 --> 01:30:00,528
So there is no such thing
as the most important election

2434
01:30:00,528 --> 01:30:01,262
of your lifetime.

2435
01:30:01,929 --> 01:30:04,065
They're all important,
they're all unimportant.

2436
01:30:05,032 --> 01:30:05,700
They're elections.

2437
01:30:06,234 --> 01:30:09,604
And you vote, you participate,
and we do what we can

2438
01:30:09,604 --> 01:30:11,205
to shape things the right way.

2439
01:30:11,406 --> 01:30:12,974
But whatever the
world's gonna do,

2440
01:30:12,974 --> 01:30:14,876
we keep on being
the people of Christ

2441
01:30:14,876 --> 01:30:16,444
who keep on living
the reality of Christ

2442
01:30:16,444 --> 01:30:18,346
and speaking that reality
to the world around us.

2443
01:30:18,913 --> 01:30:20,014
And we're confident in that.

2444
01:30:20,348 --> 01:30:22,750
And even as the world
becomes increasingly godless,

2445
01:30:22,884 --> 01:30:25,987
which I'm personally convinced
it's going to do in the West,

2446
01:30:26,387 --> 01:30:27,188
I think that's where
we're headed,

2447
01:30:27,355 --> 01:30:28,156
I think that's the trajectory,

2448
01:30:28,890 --> 01:30:31,259
we don't despair,
we don't give up.

2449
01:30:31,559 --> 01:30:33,995
We live with hope far
more than Hunter has

2450
01:30:33,995 --> 01:30:35,696
because I'm not
hoping in the democracy

2451
01:30:35,696 --> 01:30:37,231
figuring out a
way to solve itself.

2452
01:30:37,665 --> 01:30:39,534
I'm hoping in the
reign of Christ.

2453
01:30:39,567 --> 01:30:42,103
And he's gonna come again
and make everything right.

2454
01:30:42,103 --> 01:30:44,705
So even if America collapses,

2455
01:30:46,073 --> 01:30:47,508
I'll keep on following Christ.

2456
01:30:48,209 --> 01:30:50,178
Might be harder, but
I'll keep on doing it.

2457
01:30:50,611 --> 01:30:52,814
And I'm not wishing
for that for my own kids,

2458
01:30:52,980 --> 01:30:54,482
for my grandkids,
I don't want that.

2459
01:30:54,715 --> 01:30:57,785
But I'll keep on following
Christ and we'll do the same.

2460
01:30:58,586 --> 01:31:00,388
All right, so questions
you guys have.

2461
01:31:00,755 --> 01:31:02,390
And I've got more junk
I can share with you,

2462
01:31:02,490 --> 01:31:04,792
but I wanna give,
you paid the big bucks,

2463
01:31:04,926 --> 01:31:06,093
so you came here
for your questions,

2464
01:31:06,194 --> 01:31:07,128
so let's get it done here.

2465
01:31:07,795 --> 01:31:09,564
You brought up we
the people earlier.

2466
01:31:10,865 --> 01:31:10,932
Yeah.

2467
01:31:12,200 --> 01:31:14,469
You had mentioned
that that's all about

2468
01:31:14,469 --> 01:31:16,204
the human side of things.

2469
01:31:17,505 --> 01:31:19,273
But even with
that we the people,

2470
01:31:20,007 --> 01:31:22,810
that's a hybrid
of the constitution

2471
01:31:22,810 --> 01:31:26,581
that is because of,
yes we the people,

2472
01:31:26,814 --> 01:31:28,249
but all these
rights that we have

2473
01:31:28,249 --> 01:31:29,450
are endowed by the creator.

2474
01:31:29,984 --> 01:31:31,953
Well it says in
the constitution

2475
01:31:31,953 --> 01:31:33,187
have been endowed
by the creator

2476
01:31:33,187 --> 01:31:34,555
with certain
inalienable rights.

2477
01:31:34,889 --> 01:31:36,390
And that's the only
mention you get of God.

2478
01:31:36,390 --> 01:31:37,859
But see what did
God do for us?

2479
01:31:38,025 --> 01:31:39,026
He gave me my rights.

2480
01:31:39,727 --> 01:31:41,496
And now with my rights
I'm gonna go do my thing.

2481
01:31:42,196 --> 01:31:44,799
And so the we the people is,

2482
01:31:45,500 --> 01:31:47,468
the constitution is
a hybrid constitution,

2483
01:31:47,668 --> 01:31:48,536
part of that hybrid
enlightenment.

2484
01:31:48,936 --> 01:31:50,571
But the idea of
the we the people,

2485
01:31:50,838 --> 01:31:51,806
that's purely enlightenment.

2486
01:31:52,306 --> 01:31:54,008
Because the
constitution does not say

2487
01:31:54,008 --> 01:31:56,744
God has established
certain natural laws.

2488
01:31:57,311 --> 01:31:58,145
That's not there.

2489
01:31:59,046 --> 01:31:59,780
It's not there.

2490
01:32:00,248 --> 01:32:01,449
And the very
idea of trying to,

2491
01:32:01,749 --> 01:32:03,751
we have to have a
natural law foundation,

2492
01:32:04,018 --> 01:32:04,986
that's a great thought,

2493
01:32:04,986 --> 01:32:06,754
but it's not in
our constitution,

2494
01:32:06,988 --> 01:32:08,222
it's not in any
founding document.

2495
01:32:08,923 --> 01:32:09,490
It's not there.

2496
01:32:09,790 --> 01:32:10,525
And then real quick,

2497
01:32:11,292 --> 01:32:14,996
the political left and
the political right,

2498
01:32:15,563 --> 01:32:17,064
Christian left and
the Christian right,

2499
01:32:17,265 --> 01:32:19,534
are you stating that
there was one up there?

2500
01:32:20,668 --> 01:32:23,771
Would you say in
our day right now

2501
01:32:23,771 --> 01:32:27,008
that the difference is
just between the politics

2502
01:32:27,575 --> 01:32:29,143
or is it the type
of Christianity?

2503
01:32:29,810 --> 01:32:30,478
Oh and the Christian,

2504
01:32:30,745 --> 01:32:32,647
oh no it's not
just the politics

2505
01:32:32,647 --> 01:32:33,915
between Christian
right and Christian left.

2506
01:32:33,915 --> 01:32:35,383
The Christianity is different.

2507
01:32:35,983 --> 01:32:36,784
Our understanding
of what it means

2508
01:32:36,784 --> 01:32:37,952
to follow Christ is different.

2509
01:32:39,053 --> 01:32:40,054
And I'm not saying
that Christian left

2510
01:32:40,054 --> 01:32:40,988
is completely wrong,

2511
01:32:41,222 --> 01:32:43,824
because they're right to
emphasize caring for people,

2512
01:32:44,025 --> 01:32:45,393
showing love,
showing compassion,

2513
01:32:46,027 --> 01:32:47,528
looking out for
the downtrodden.

2514
01:32:47,695 --> 01:32:48,563
That's all good and right.

2515
01:32:48,663 --> 01:32:49,864
Jesus did plenty
of that stuff.

2516
01:32:50,031 --> 01:32:50,831
But the problem is,

2517
01:32:51,165 --> 01:32:53,568
they often then let go
of the core things like,

2518
01:32:53,668 --> 01:32:55,069
Jesus is risen from the dead,

2519
01:32:55,269 --> 01:32:56,571
God is coming again.

2520
01:32:56,938 --> 01:32:58,172
Oh I don't know if I
need to believe that.

2521
01:32:58,205 --> 01:32:59,106
I just like what Jesus did.

2522
01:32:59,440 --> 01:33:00,608
So it's a different
Christianity.

2523
01:33:01,375 --> 01:33:03,544
And so they're defining
what it means to be Christian

2524
01:33:03,544 --> 01:33:04,679
quite differently than we are.

2525
01:33:04,712 --> 01:33:06,213
Would you say
that the Christian left

2526
01:33:06,213 --> 01:33:08,115
is probably more
tolerant of things

2527
01:33:08,115 --> 01:33:09,650
that are already said are bad?

2528
01:33:10,117 --> 01:33:12,086
Yes, the Christian left
to be far more tolerant

2529
01:33:12,086 --> 01:33:13,854
of things that we would
consider to be bad.

2530
01:33:14,188 --> 01:33:16,123
And I'm repeating stuff just
for the recording, that's why.

2531
01:33:16,223 --> 01:33:17,325
So I'm not trying
to be redundant.

2532
01:33:17,658 --> 01:33:18,893
I just, they don't
hear you on there.

2533
01:33:19,126 --> 01:33:20,661
You had the choice of either
waiting for a microphone

2534
01:33:20,661 --> 01:33:22,096
to come to you for me
to repeat the question.

2535
01:33:22,229 --> 01:33:22,730
So I'll repeat.

2536
01:33:22,964 --> 01:33:23,431
So this is good.

2537
01:33:24,532 --> 01:33:26,200
So yes, the Christian left,

2538
01:33:26,467 --> 01:33:28,069
I'm not defending
the Christian left.

2539
01:33:28,336 --> 01:33:31,272
I think they are apostate
selling out their confession.

2540
01:33:31,272 --> 01:33:34,408
And they're just
taking a watered down,

2541
01:33:34,742 --> 01:33:37,144
let's smile and love
everybody, Jesus.

2542
01:33:37,712 --> 01:33:39,747
And that's not Jesus
that I'm following.

2543
01:33:40,081 --> 01:33:42,116
I'm following the
son of God incarnate.

2544
01:33:42,516 --> 01:33:44,485
And that was who
Bonhoeffer was following,

2545
01:33:44,652 --> 01:33:45,753
was the son of God incarnate.

2546
01:33:46,220 --> 01:33:49,523
And so I'm not making
exceptions for them,

2547
01:33:49,523 --> 01:33:51,459
but I am also saying
you need to understand

2548
01:33:51,459 --> 01:33:53,327
what's driving them
and why they operate

2549
01:33:53,327 --> 01:33:54,862
the way they
operate and recognize

2550
01:33:54,862 --> 01:33:56,513
they do have
biblical foundations

2551
01:33:56,555 --> 01:33:57,698
for the things they do,

2552
01:33:57,698 --> 01:33:59,700
even though they're not
being faithful to all of it.

2553
01:33:59,700 --> 01:34:01,535
They can say, look,
the Bible says this.

2554
01:34:01,869 --> 01:34:02,603
Fair enough, it does.

2555
01:34:04,338 --> 01:34:07,274
Exactly, they're not
following consistently.

2556
01:34:07,575 --> 01:34:08,909
But see then by
the same token,

2557
01:34:09,377 --> 01:34:10,645
are we on the Christian right,

2558
01:34:10,911 --> 01:34:12,413
if we put ourselves in
that kind of category,

2559
01:34:12,613 --> 01:34:14,615
are we always showing
love to the loveless

2560
01:34:14,615 --> 01:34:15,850
the way that God
would have us do?

2561
01:34:15,950 --> 01:34:16,984
Are we being as compassionate?

2562
01:34:17,585 --> 01:34:19,286
We have our
shortcomings as well.

2563
01:34:19,387 --> 01:34:21,088
And so we need to
be willing to admit that.

2564
01:34:22,256 --> 01:34:23,691
I wanna ask my
question right off the bat

2565
01:34:23,691 --> 01:34:25,860
and then talk a
little bit about it.

2566
01:34:25,893 --> 01:34:26,360
Okay.

2567
01:34:26,360 --> 01:34:29,263
So my question is,
in all my vocations,

2568
01:34:29,764 --> 01:34:31,399
how should I be
thinking about freedom?

2569
01:34:32,133 --> 01:34:34,135
Okay, so in all
your vocations,

2570
01:34:34,301 --> 01:34:35,469
how should you be
thinking about freedom?

2571
01:34:35,803 --> 01:34:35,970
All right.

2572
01:34:36,971 --> 01:34:39,373
The, to sort of,
what's coloring in here,

2573
01:34:39,707 --> 01:34:41,575
a couple years ago,
Victor Davis Hanson

2574
01:34:42,076 --> 01:34:44,445
had this article in
The New Criterion

2575
01:34:45,146 --> 01:34:48,282
where he talks about
different kinds of freedom,

2576
01:34:48,582 --> 01:34:50,117
like a religious understanding

2577
01:34:51,752 --> 01:34:54,588
versus a Roman understanding.

2578
01:34:54,655 --> 01:34:55,256
Okay.

2579
01:34:55,256 --> 01:34:57,892
And the Veritas
and something else.

2580
01:34:58,426 --> 01:34:59,093
I don't know the Veritas.

2581
01:34:59,827 --> 01:35:03,264
So in any event,
what he says is

2582
01:35:03,264 --> 01:35:06,667
the sort of barbarian freedom
of just going into the woods

2583
01:35:06,667 --> 01:35:08,836
and going away and
doing whatever you want

2584
01:35:08,836 --> 01:35:12,606
versus maintaining
some sort of freedom

2585
01:35:12,606 --> 01:35:15,209
in an increasingly
complex society.

2586
01:35:15,309 --> 01:35:15,576
Yeah.

2587
01:35:15,743 --> 01:35:16,844
In the Roman world, right?

2588
01:35:18,412 --> 01:35:21,415
So, okay, fine.

2589
01:35:21,749 --> 01:35:22,850
That there is that, right?

2590
01:35:22,850 --> 01:35:23,451
Mm-hmm.

2591
01:35:23,451 --> 01:35:25,586
It reminds, I'm reminded of it

2592
01:35:26,353 --> 01:35:29,523
with the sort of
solidarity versus

2593
01:35:29,523 --> 01:35:33,060
the freedom of a person.

2594
01:35:34,361 --> 01:35:34,595
Okay.

2595
01:35:35,596 --> 01:35:39,433
How should we, in all
our vocations though,

2596
01:35:39,700 --> 01:35:41,268
be thinking about freedom?

2597
01:35:41,535 --> 01:35:41,969
What is freedom?

2598
01:35:42,403 --> 01:35:43,604
Now, freedom is
a great question

2599
01:35:43,604 --> 01:35:45,673
and freedom is a
very loaded term.

2600
01:35:46,674 --> 01:35:48,409
We all think, oh,
Americans love freedom.

2601
01:35:48,542 --> 01:35:49,076
That's easy.

2602
01:35:49,276 --> 01:35:50,144
But it's not so easy.

2603
01:35:50,811 --> 01:35:53,013
Patrick Dineen wrote
a really useful book

2604
01:35:53,013 --> 01:35:54,248
called Why Liberalism Failed.

2605
01:35:55,249 --> 01:35:57,651
He's got a new book out
called Regime Change,

2606
01:35:57,685 --> 01:35:58,552
which is not so good.

2607
01:35:59,487 --> 01:36:00,788
Because Dineen
is kind of sliding off

2608
01:36:00,788 --> 01:36:03,124
in this Christian nationalism
weirdness stuff a little bit.

2609
01:36:03,257 --> 01:36:04,391
So be a little careful there.

2610
01:36:04,725 --> 01:36:06,327
But in his book, Why
Liberalism Failed,

2611
01:36:06,427 --> 01:36:08,295
he does a great
job of talking about

2612
01:36:08,295 --> 01:36:09,463
what freedom actually means.

2613
01:36:10,464 --> 01:36:11,966
And he's on the right track.

2614
01:36:12,066 --> 01:36:13,300
And you're on
the right track also.

2615
01:36:13,734 --> 01:36:16,804
In the kind of classic
Greek way of operating,

2616
01:36:16,804 --> 01:36:20,107
freedom always meant,
freedom was being

2617
01:36:20,107 --> 01:36:21,542
in control of yourself.

2618
01:36:22,042 --> 01:36:23,611
You are not a slave
to your passions.

2619
01:36:24,145 --> 01:36:26,313
You're not a slave
to your base instincts.

2620
01:36:26,413 --> 01:36:27,715
You're the master of yourself.

2621
01:36:27,882 --> 01:36:28,516
Now you're free.

2622
01:36:29,083 --> 01:36:30,718
And so freedom
meant self control.

2623
01:36:31,986 --> 01:36:33,487
From a scriptural standpoint,

2624
01:36:33,788 --> 01:36:34,855
a more Christian standpoint,

2625
01:36:34,955 --> 01:36:36,223
there's a commonality there.

2626
01:36:36,390 --> 01:36:38,325
Because how does
Paul define freedom?

2627
01:36:38,726 --> 01:36:40,561
Freedom means living
with Jesus as Lord.

2628
01:36:41,295 --> 01:36:42,029
That's freedom.

2629
01:36:42,797 --> 01:36:44,832
And so the Christian
definition of freedom,

2630
01:36:45,332 --> 01:36:46,333
I don't know about
the German one.

2631
01:36:46,333 --> 01:36:47,067
I'll leave that one out.

2632
01:36:47,234 --> 01:36:49,270
Because I won't have
anything to say about that.

2633
01:36:49,470 --> 01:36:50,938
But the Christian
definition of freedom

2634
01:36:50,938 --> 01:36:53,707
is not self control.

2635
01:36:53,908 --> 01:36:55,409
And it's not do what I want.

2636
01:36:56,243 --> 01:36:57,144
See, that's the American.

2637
01:36:57,511 --> 01:37:00,214
Freedom in America
means I'm autonomous.

2638
01:37:00,481 --> 01:37:01,749
Nobody tells me what to do.

2639
01:37:02,116 --> 01:37:03,417
And that's always
kind of a myth

2640
01:37:03,417 --> 01:37:05,019
because nobody has that
kind of ultimate freedom.

2641
01:37:05,019 --> 01:37:06,086
But that's the goal.

2642
01:37:06,887 --> 01:37:09,890
Christians define freedom
as living with Jesus

2643
01:37:09,890 --> 01:37:11,725
as your Lord instead
of Satan as your Lord.

2644
01:37:12,359 --> 01:37:13,027
That's freedom.

2645
01:37:13,394 --> 01:37:14,595
But if Jesus is my Lord,

2646
01:37:15,162 --> 01:37:16,530
I'm keeping the 10
Commandments.

2647
01:37:16,664 --> 01:37:17,565
I'm following the golden rule.

2648
01:37:17,698 --> 01:37:19,466
I'm keeping all the
Sermon on the Mount.

2649
01:37:19,834 --> 01:37:21,669
I've got all kinds of
rules I'm following.

2650
01:37:21,769 --> 01:37:25,506
But I know living according to
God's will gives me freedom.

2651
01:37:25,806 --> 01:37:28,642
And I know that living outside
of God's will is slavery.

2652
01:37:28,976 --> 01:37:32,346
So yes, freedom is
very differently defined.

2653
01:37:32,613 --> 01:37:34,014
And I experience all the time

2654
01:37:34,014 --> 01:37:35,883
that Christians get
really messed up on this.

2655
01:37:36,150 --> 01:37:37,852
And they think that
freedom in Christ

2656
01:37:37,852 --> 01:37:39,787
equals the freedom
they have in America.

2657
01:37:40,054 --> 01:37:42,489
They are completely
different things.

2658
01:37:42,489 --> 01:37:44,959
And every Reformation
day we start celebrating

2659
01:37:45,492 --> 01:37:46,694
Luther gave us freedom.

2660
01:37:47,394 --> 01:37:49,663
Be careful with what
you know what that means

2661
01:37:49,663 --> 01:37:50,865
and how you understand that.

2662
01:37:51,165 --> 01:37:53,734
Because the freedom Luther
brought back to the Christian

2663
01:37:53,734 --> 01:37:56,403
has nothing to do with what
America defines as freedom.

2664
01:37:57,037 --> 01:37:58,572
And people conflate
those all the time.

2665
01:37:58,672 --> 01:37:59,240
And it's a mess.

2666
01:37:59,940 --> 01:38:00,007
Okay?

2667
01:38:00,374 --> 01:38:00,908
Great question.

2668
01:38:01,141 --> 01:38:01,275
Yep.

2669
01:38:02,543 --> 01:38:04,545
In relation to that,
there's a book called

2670
01:38:04,545 --> 01:38:07,047
The Christian Freedom
by Peter Langton.

2671
01:38:07,314 --> 01:38:09,984
But the subtitle is Faith
Working Through Love.

2672
01:38:10,150 --> 01:38:12,086
Yes, Faith Working
Through Love.

2673
01:38:12,086 --> 01:38:14,188
This is how we would
understand Christian freedom.

2674
01:38:15,155 --> 01:38:17,291
Gil Mylander wrote
a book about that.

2675
01:38:17,958 --> 01:38:22,129
And Luther has a great
little essay he wrote in 1520,

2676
01:38:22,363 --> 01:38:23,430
The Freedom of the Christian.

2677
01:38:24,064 --> 01:38:27,635
And that's where he has this
very famous pair of sentences.

2678
01:38:28,035 --> 01:38:30,571
He says, a Christian is
a perfectly free Lord of all

2679
01:38:30,571 --> 01:38:31,305
subject to none.

2680
01:38:31,572 --> 01:38:32,273
Thinking, yes!

2681
01:38:33,173 --> 01:38:34,308
And the very next sentence,

2682
01:38:34,675 --> 01:38:36,143
Christian is a
perfectly dutiful servant,

2683
01:38:36,543 --> 01:38:38,412
servant of all, a
slave to everybody.

2684
01:38:39,246 --> 01:38:39,713
Oh, bummer.

2685
01:38:39,713 --> 01:38:42,549
And so, it's both things.

2686
01:38:42,683 --> 01:38:44,218
One, before God you're free.

2687
01:38:44,451 --> 01:38:46,654
Before your neighbor,
you're his servant.

2688
01:38:47,254 --> 01:38:47,821
Care for him.

2689
01:38:48,022 --> 01:38:49,523
And that's Luther's
definition of freedom.

2690
01:38:49,657 --> 01:38:50,858
So yes, exactly right.

2691
01:38:51,258 --> 01:38:53,494
This corroborates what
I'm trying to tell you here.

2692
01:38:53,527 --> 01:38:54,728
And Luther is right
on track with that.

2693
01:38:55,195 --> 01:38:55,930
Great, good.

2694
01:38:56,563 --> 01:38:57,131
Other questions?

2695
01:38:57,932 --> 01:38:58,065
Yep.

2696
01:38:59,700 --> 01:39:01,735
Going back to the second part.

2697
01:39:02,670 --> 01:39:03,971
How does the third section,

2698
01:39:04,171 --> 01:39:05,973
why you didn't start with the

2699
01:39:05,973 --> 01:39:08,943
I mean, the third section,

2700
01:39:09,877 --> 01:39:10,577
but again,

2701
01:39:10,811 --> 01:39:13,681
what is the motivation for the

2702
01:39:13,681 --> 01:39:15,616
for the government to do so?

2703
01:39:16,283 --> 01:39:18,052
Is the time you're
going to do that

2704
01:39:18,052 --> 01:39:18,953
for your children?

2705
01:39:20,087 --> 01:39:21,588
Is the government
going to do it?

2706
01:39:21,855 --> 01:39:23,257
Or, what's the relationship
to the government

2707
01:39:23,257 --> 01:39:23,991
like, you know,

2708
01:39:24,124 --> 01:39:25,893
stop that, that,
or do you just go?

2709
01:39:25,993 --> 01:39:26,794
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2710
01:39:26,994 --> 01:39:29,763
So can the church play a
role in a government forming?

2711
01:39:29,863 --> 01:39:30,931
I think that'd be a blast,

2712
01:39:31,098 --> 01:39:32,066
being a part of that.

2713
01:39:32,232 --> 01:39:33,167
And what would it look like?

2714
01:39:33,367 --> 01:39:35,369
I think it would look a
lot like some of the stuff

2715
01:39:35,369 --> 01:39:37,404
we have in the American
checks and balances,

2716
01:39:37,771 --> 01:39:39,506
you know, not letting
authority get too far.

2717
01:39:39,573 --> 01:39:42,543
That is one of the geniuses
of the American experiment.

2718
01:39:42,609 --> 01:39:43,677
And it is an experiment.

2719
01:39:43,944 --> 01:39:45,746
As they all, the founding
fathers called it that.

2720
01:39:45,913 --> 01:39:47,314
Let's see how the
experiment goes.

2721
01:39:47,815 --> 01:39:49,049
Jefferson was kind
of with the opinion.

2722
01:39:49,249 --> 01:39:50,551
Deneen talks about
this in his book,

2723
01:39:50,584 --> 01:39:51,285
While Liberalism Failed.

2724
01:39:51,819 --> 01:39:52,586
Jefferson was content,

2725
01:39:52,720 --> 01:39:53,687
like every 40, 50 years,

2726
01:39:53,754 --> 01:39:54,855
we'd have a new constitution.

2727
01:39:55,055 --> 01:39:55,789
Start all over.

2728
01:39:55,956 --> 01:39:56,323
It's fine.

2729
01:39:56,423 --> 01:39:56,724
That's what we do.

2730
01:39:56,824 --> 01:39:57,691
Keep things keep on evolving.

2731
01:39:57,758 --> 01:39:58,459
We'll just do it again.

2732
01:39:58,692 --> 01:39:59,827
That's what Jefferson thought.

2733
01:40:00,928 --> 01:40:02,029
Didn't turn out that way.

2734
01:40:02,196 --> 01:40:02,763
It's probably good.

2735
01:40:02,863 --> 01:40:03,664
It could be a little chaotic.

2736
01:40:03,664 --> 01:40:05,766
But to be able to build
it from the ground up,

2737
01:40:05,766 --> 01:40:06,633
it'd be very interesting.

2738
01:40:06,834 --> 01:40:08,469
So I would have a lot of
the checks and balances,

2739
01:40:08,535 --> 01:40:09,803
but I think the church
would also say,

2740
01:40:10,037 --> 01:40:11,872
we need to recognize
that there is a God

2741
01:40:11,872 --> 01:40:13,307
to whom we're accountable,

2742
01:40:13,307 --> 01:40:14,908
and he does have a law.

2743
01:40:15,075 --> 01:40:16,443
And we need to
pay attention to that.

2744
01:40:16,610 --> 01:40:18,078
And then we can
start debating about

2745
01:40:18,078 --> 01:40:19,279
what's in that natural law.

2746
01:40:19,279 --> 01:40:21,248
And then you get
resources like CS Lewis,

2747
01:40:21,515 --> 01:40:23,283
Abolition of Man, and the Tao,

2748
01:40:23,450 --> 01:40:24,518
and the basic kind of things.

2749
01:40:24,618 --> 01:40:25,786
And you got others also.

2750
01:40:26,754 --> 01:40:29,823
Most people recognize there
is this kind of moral code

2751
01:40:29,823 --> 01:40:31,025
that came from somewhere.

2752
01:40:31,325 --> 01:40:33,193
And it's only been
in recent times

2753
01:40:33,193 --> 01:40:33,892
that the enlightenment has

2754
01:40:33,934 --> 01:40:34,928
brought us to the
point of saying,

2755
01:40:34,928 --> 01:40:36,864
nope, we don't need a God,
we don't need a moral code.

2756
01:40:36,864 --> 01:40:38,665
And that's the kind
of chaos we're in now.

2757
01:40:38,899 --> 01:40:41,068
So if I had my druthers,
I'd build it that way.

2758
01:40:41,468 --> 01:40:42,770
Indonesia is
really interesting.

2759
01:40:42,870 --> 01:40:45,672
I had a grad student
this past summer

2760
01:40:45,672 --> 01:40:46,807
who was here on campus.

2761
01:40:47,508 --> 01:40:49,710
He's a missionary
in Indonesia now.

2762
01:40:50,144 --> 01:40:52,212
Indonesia is a
predominantly Muslim nation,

2763
01:40:52,212 --> 01:40:54,848
but they also
recognize Christianity,

2764
01:40:56,550 --> 01:40:59,953
and I want to say, the
Confucianism maybe,

2765
01:41:00,187 --> 01:41:01,422
is a couple, maybe
it's Buddhism.

2766
01:41:01,422 --> 01:41:03,957
It's just like a handful
of legitimate religions,

2767
01:41:04,024 --> 01:41:06,126
but they all have to have
some kind of foundation

2768
01:41:06,126 --> 01:41:07,261
and a moral code.

2769
01:41:07,461 --> 01:41:08,862
It's built in their
constitution.

2770
01:41:09,663 --> 01:41:10,601
And we were having some

2771
01:41:10,643 --> 01:41:12,132
interesting
discussions, you know,

2772
01:41:12,166 --> 01:41:14,234
so it's not a dominant
in the Christian nation,

2773
01:41:14,234 --> 01:41:16,370
but Christians are
allowed to exist,

2774
01:41:16,370 --> 01:41:18,972
and the government
wants you to have faith.

2775
01:41:18,972 --> 01:41:20,607
It's part of their
constitution.

2776
01:41:20,974 --> 01:41:21,875
It's really interesting.

2777
01:41:22,276 --> 01:41:24,244
And it violates
religious liberty

2778
01:41:24,244 --> 01:41:26,113
because they don't let
Jehovah's Witnesses in.

2779
01:41:26,346 --> 01:41:27,347
And so the student was asking,

2780
01:41:27,514 --> 01:41:29,583
should I be supportive
of the constitution or not?

2781
01:41:29,583 --> 01:41:31,218
I said, well, that sounds
like a good idea to me.

2782
01:41:32,219 --> 01:41:34,354
And so it gets interesting.

2783
01:41:34,588 --> 01:41:36,323
So it's not such a
foregone conclusion.

2784
01:41:36,490 --> 01:41:37,524
It's just the whole
thing of, you know,

2785
01:41:37,524 --> 01:41:38,892
are we fans of
religious freedom?

2786
01:41:39,259 --> 01:41:39,893
Not necessarily.

2787
01:41:40,828 --> 01:41:42,029
So that's a great question.

2788
01:41:42,563 --> 01:41:43,030
All right, good.

2789
01:41:43,730 --> 01:41:44,798
Saw a hand here earlier.

2790
01:41:44,965 --> 01:41:45,933
You want to ask
a question now?

2791
01:41:46,366 --> 01:41:47,367
Okay, anybody else?

2792
01:41:47,601 --> 01:41:48,001
Any questions?

2793
01:41:48,368 --> 01:41:49,069
Yep, Monica.

2794
01:41:49,436 --> 01:41:52,072
What do you go
back to in the three,

2795
01:41:52,806 --> 01:41:54,875
in the different,
the three different?

2796
01:41:55,409 --> 01:41:56,752
Oh, the three
groups, religious

2797
01:41:56,794 --> 01:41:57,744
right, religious left,

2798
01:41:58,078 --> 01:41:59,046
or Christian right,
Christian left,

2799
01:41:59,046 --> 01:42:00,314
and neo-anabaptist?

2800
01:42:01,915 --> 01:42:02,903
If you don't fit into any,

2801
01:42:02,945 --> 01:42:04,251
well, yeah, that's
a good point.

2802
01:42:04,284 --> 01:42:05,886
Cause I don't really fit
into any of them either.

2803
01:42:06,553 --> 01:42:08,155
What I think you
probably do is you say,

2804
01:42:08,255 --> 01:42:10,724
there are elements of each of
the three that have some truth

2805
01:42:11,325 --> 01:42:13,127
and I need to live
following Jesus.

2806
01:42:13,527 --> 01:42:16,430
And so that's good,
great question.

2807
01:42:16,563 --> 01:42:18,532
Because I don't think that
we should be running around

2808
01:42:18,532 --> 01:42:19,867
trying to figure out
where I want to align.

2809
01:42:20,234 --> 01:42:21,702
I think what you
need to do is figure out

2810
01:42:21,702 --> 01:42:23,470
if I'm going to follow
Jesus seriously,

2811
01:42:23,470 --> 01:42:24,338
what's that look like?

2812
01:42:24,705 --> 01:42:27,007
And you make sure your
congregation is doing that

2813
01:42:27,007 --> 01:42:27,875
and you're part of that,

2814
01:42:27,875 --> 01:42:29,543
and you just keep
doing it in your family

2815
01:42:29,543 --> 01:42:30,344
and in your congregation,

2816
01:42:30,377 --> 01:42:32,846
and don't worry about
who you line up with.

2817
01:42:33,280 --> 01:42:34,314
Just be careful who you read

2818
01:42:34,948 --> 01:42:36,783
and who you're listening
to on your podcast

2819
01:42:36,783 --> 01:42:38,185
or your YouTube channel.

2820
01:42:39,186 --> 01:42:39,386
Jonah.

2821
01:42:40,954 --> 01:42:42,689
If the Christian
is staying there,

2822
01:42:42,856 --> 01:42:46,593
are there any other
ways to change God's life?

2823
01:42:47,127 --> 01:42:48,795
If you need to agree
to the law of faith,

2824
01:42:48,896 --> 01:42:49,730
then you need to change it.

2825
01:42:50,164 --> 01:42:51,999
That's one of the
hardest questions.

2826
01:42:52,432 --> 01:42:53,834
Cause see, a
Lutheran would say,

2827
01:42:54,034 --> 01:42:55,669
God establishes the authority.

2828
01:42:55,836 --> 01:42:56,670
Okay, good.

2829
01:42:56,670 --> 01:42:58,205
But what happens
when you're in the middle

2830
01:42:58,205 --> 01:42:59,106
between the authorities?

2831
01:42:59,573 --> 01:43:00,507
So you have a coup d'etat.

2832
01:43:00,874 --> 01:43:02,709
So for example, like
I'm living in America

2833
01:43:02,709 --> 01:43:04,077
and I'm loyal to the king.

2834
01:43:04,378 --> 01:43:05,479
Well, at what point do I say,

2835
01:43:05,612 --> 01:43:06,713
well, the king is lost

2836
01:43:06,713 --> 01:43:09,249
and now I've got a
new prince in town,

2837
01:43:09,249 --> 01:43:10,617
so when do I give
my allegiance?

2838
01:43:10,684 --> 01:43:11,785
It's not so clear.

2839
01:43:11,985 --> 01:43:13,520
And so I will
readily grant you,

2840
01:43:13,587 --> 01:43:15,455
there are gonna be
these gray kinds of areas.

2841
01:43:15,856 --> 01:43:17,691
And so if America
starts to collapse

2842
01:43:17,691 --> 01:43:18,892
and we find
ourselves in anarchy,

2843
01:43:19,193 --> 01:43:20,527
where should Christians
give their allegiance?

2844
01:43:20,827 --> 01:43:22,196
Well, you probably
ask your pastor,

2845
01:43:22,529 --> 01:43:24,164
and if you're the pastor,
have an answer ready.

2846
01:43:24,164 --> 01:43:27,968
And start sorting it out.

2847
01:43:28,168 --> 01:43:29,369
I'm not sure it's
gonna be clear cut.

2848
01:43:29,903 --> 01:43:31,171
And we probably have
some disagreements.

2849
01:43:31,672 --> 01:43:33,140
And then you probably
kick it to the CTCR

2850
01:43:33,140 --> 01:43:34,775
and three or four years
they'll give you an answer.

2851
01:43:38,812 --> 01:43:40,214
I'm serving on the CTCR now,

2852
01:43:40,214 --> 01:43:41,014
that's why I can say that.

2853
01:43:42,349 --> 01:43:43,350
All right, good.

2854
01:43:43,684 --> 01:43:44,218
Other questions?

2855
01:43:44,585 --> 01:43:45,586
That was a good question.

2856
01:43:46,386 --> 01:43:46,887
Anything else?

2857
01:43:47,955 --> 01:43:48,155
Yeah.

2858
01:43:52,192 --> 01:43:52,526
Yeah.

2859
01:43:58,665 --> 01:44:00,567
Yeah, that's a great question.

2860
01:44:01,168 --> 01:44:03,870
So, you know, people know
a little bit about Bonhoeffer

2861
01:44:03,870 --> 01:44:06,540
and they know that
he died as a martyr

2862
01:44:06,540 --> 01:44:10,377
and he was executed
on Hitler's personal order

2863
01:44:10,377 --> 01:44:15,148
in April of 45, just days
before the concentration camp

2864
01:44:15,148 --> 01:44:17,150
where he was being in
Flossenburg was liberated.

2865
01:44:17,551 --> 01:44:18,819
And so he was
executed by hanging.

2866
01:44:19,486 --> 01:44:21,088
And so why was he executed?

2867
01:44:21,088 --> 01:44:23,724
Well, it wasn't because
he was involved

2868
01:44:23,724 --> 01:44:25,092
in the plot to
assassinate Hitler.

2869
01:44:26,393 --> 01:44:29,963
Because if he had
been imprisoned for that,

2870
01:44:30,130 --> 01:44:30,998
he wouldn't have made it to.

2871
01:44:31,531 --> 01:44:32,866
I mean, people
who were involved

2872
01:44:32,866 --> 01:44:35,369
in the plot to assassinate
Hitler were summarily shot.

2873
01:44:35,702 --> 01:44:36,336
That was it.

2874
01:44:36,703 --> 01:44:39,172
And so he was imprisoned
because they were suspicious

2875
01:44:39,172 --> 01:44:40,841
he was a double
agent, which he was.

2876
01:44:41,275 --> 01:44:43,443
Because he was actually
serving in the Abwehr,

2877
01:44:44,144 --> 01:44:46,647
the army, as a diplomat.

2878
01:44:46,980 --> 01:44:49,516
But he was, in the meantime,
subverting everything.

2879
01:44:49,516 --> 01:44:52,286
So he was playing both sides,
he was being a double agent.

2880
01:44:52,619 --> 01:44:54,788
So the Gestapo got suspicious
and they threw him in jail

2881
01:44:54,788 --> 01:44:56,423
as they were investigating.

2882
01:44:56,790 --> 01:44:59,293
Well, yeah, he was guilty
of that and he knew it.

2883
01:44:59,760 --> 01:45:01,001
And so, but was he aware of

2884
01:45:01,043 --> 01:45:02,562
the plot to
assassinate Hitler?

2885
01:45:02,629 --> 01:45:05,265
He was aware and his brother
was up to his eyeballs in it.

2886
01:45:05,265 --> 01:45:06,933
And he was much more involved.

2887
01:45:07,100 --> 01:45:10,404
And so Dietrich wasn't aware,
but not directly involved.

2888
01:45:10,704 --> 01:45:13,507
So the bigger question
is, would it be right

2889
01:45:13,507 --> 01:45:16,710
for a Christian to
actively take violence

2890
01:45:16,710 --> 01:45:18,545
against an
authority like Hitler?

2891
01:45:18,545 --> 01:45:21,615
And Bonhoeffer
contemplated and said, yes.

2892
01:45:22,316 --> 01:45:24,985
Given the size of
the horror he's doing,

2893
01:45:25,519 --> 01:45:27,954
the difference it could
make by eliminating him,

2894
01:45:28,055 --> 01:45:29,289
because there were a
lot of people convinced

2895
01:45:29,289 --> 01:45:30,424
and Dietrich was one of those,

2896
01:45:30,724 --> 01:45:32,893
that if we got rid of Hitler,
we could actually sue

2897
01:45:32,893 --> 01:45:35,729
for peace with the Allies
and be able to maintain

2898
01:45:36,296 --> 01:45:38,598
German's integrity
and have a way forward.

2899
01:45:38,765 --> 01:45:39,666
That's what he
was looking for.

2900
01:45:39,733 --> 01:45:41,068
Let's get rid of
Hitler and figure out

2901
01:45:41,068 --> 01:45:42,302
what we can do moving forward.

2902
01:45:42,903 --> 01:45:44,371
And so he was
convinced of that.

2903
01:45:44,471 --> 01:45:46,273
He might've been right,
we never got to find out.

2904
01:45:47,107 --> 01:45:49,049
But I think what Bonhoeffer's

2905
01:45:49,091 --> 01:45:51,278
position was,
is the right one.

2906
01:45:51,611 --> 01:45:54,147
He made that decision
for himself and his situation.

2907
01:45:54,548 --> 01:45:56,450
He was in a situation
where he could do something

2908
01:45:56,450 --> 01:45:58,485
and he decided
for me to do nothing

2909
01:45:58,485 --> 01:46:00,721
and to not participate
in some way

2910
01:46:00,721 --> 01:46:03,690
would be a greater sin
against my fellow man

2911
01:46:03,690 --> 01:46:06,426
than sinning against
the fourth commandment

2912
01:46:06,426 --> 01:46:07,494
by going as my authority.

2913
01:46:07,861 --> 01:46:11,732
And so that's a genuine
theological ethic gray area.

2914
01:46:11,865 --> 01:46:13,233
And I think they exist.

2915
01:46:13,400 --> 01:46:15,302
And I think those
kinds of situations,

2916
01:46:15,302 --> 01:46:17,871
you have to say, what
would God have me do

2917
01:46:17,871 --> 01:46:19,172
in this very
difficult situation?

2918
01:46:19,506 --> 01:46:22,075
I'm gonna do this and
I'll take responsibility

2919
01:46:22,075 --> 01:46:24,544
for my actions and I'll
pay the price accordingly.

2920
01:46:24,745 --> 01:46:26,113
That's what Bonhoeffer did.

2921
01:46:26,346 --> 01:46:28,515
And he believed he
served his fellow men better

2922
01:46:28,515 --> 01:46:31,251
by working to get rid
of Hitler than by not.

2923
01:46:31,585 --> 01:46:32,753
And that's a choice he made.

2924
01:46:32,919 --> 01:46:34,554
And I'm not gonna
knock him on that.

2925
01:46:34,688 --> 01:46:35,489
That was his choice he made.

2926
01:46:35,589 --> 01:46:37,324
I think he made the right
choice in his situation.

2927
01:46:37,924 --> 01:46:39,326
Okay, good.

2928
01:46:40,427 --> 01:46:42,362
All right, anything else?

2929
01:46:43,530 --> 01:46:45,532
Nobody's asked me
who should I vote for?

2930
01:46:47,634 --> 01:46:48,435
Go ahead, Monica.

2931
01:46:54,374 --> 01:46:54,775
Okay.

2932
01:47:01,381 --> 01:47:03,550
Okay, so the question is how
do you talk to other people

2933
01:47:03,550 --> 01:47:05,952
who aren't on board with what
I'm trying to lay out here?

2934
01:47:07,554 --> 01:47:09,656
You just, you know,
give them time.

2935
01:47:09,723 --> 01:47:10,857
Everybody comes
around eventually.

2936
01:47:10,857 --> 01:47:13,126
No, they don't.

2937
01:47:13,894 --> 01:47:14,728
And I get that.

2938
01:47:15,595 --> 01:47:17,664
And I was gonna say, have
them watch them on my YouTube.

2939
01:47:17,798 --> 01:47:18,565
That'll solve everything.

2940
01:47:18,732 --> 01:47:20,500
But I'm not that arrogant.

2941
01:47:20,901 --> 01:47:22,202
I'm not gonna fix everything.

2942
01:47:23,603 --> 01:47:25,672
I think you need
to be patient,

2943
01:47:25,906 --> 01:47:27,774
but you need to be
consistent in how you operate.

2944
01:47:28,175 --> 01:47:29,409
So in other words,
if you're gonna say,

2945
01:47:29,509 --> 01:47:31,511
we need a follow Jesus,
you strive to do that.

2946
01:47:31,578 --> 01:47:32,646
And you're patient.

2947
01:47:33,547 --> 01:47:35,549
And it kind of depends on
where they're coming from.

2948
01:47:35,615 --> 01:47:37,184
Are they coming from
the left leaning in?

2949
01:47:37,184 --> 01:47:38,585
Are they coming from
the right leaning in?

2950
01:47:38,585 --> 01:47:40,454
And you know, I know in LCMS,

2951
01:47:40,587 --> 01:47:42,255
we tend to have a
preponderance of people

2952
01:47:42,255 --> 01:47:43,156
coming in from the right.

2953
01:47:44,391 --> 01:47:46,893
And so I think
what you need to do

2954
01:47:46,893 --> 01:47:48,829
is just kind of ask
questions of them.

2955
01:47:48,862 --> 01:47:50,897
How does that square
with what Jesus said?

2956
01:47:51,331 --> 01:47:53,934
How does that fit with what
it means to follow Christ?

2957
01:47:54,234 --> 01:47:55,235
And then you ask the question,

2958
01:47:55,335 --> 01:47:57,070
this has become
really helpful to me is,

2959
01:47:57,671 --> 01:47:59,806
if the church's
job is to witness

2960
01:47:59,806 --> 01:48:01,408
the reality of
Christ to the world,

2961
01:48:02,008 --> 01:48:03,844
and then you ask them,
is that the church's job?

2962
01:48:04,177 --> 01:48:06,079
And I don't think
people are gonna say no.

2963
01:48:06,446 --> 01:48:08,448
You say, how
best do we do that?

2964
01:48:09,316 --> 01:48:10,684
And I think that's a
good question to ask.

2965
01:48:10,750 --> 01:48:12,152
Because you get them
to start thinking about,

2966
01:48:12,686 --> 01:48:15,689
if I really, if my goal is
to win them for Christ

2967
01:48:15,689 --> 01:48:18,758
and not to beat them, then
how am I gonna do that?

2968
01:48:18,825 --> 01:48:21,027
And it starts to change
the dynamic a little bit.

2969
01:48:21,061 --> 01:48:22,128
Because I think
a lot of Christians,

2970
01:48:22,262 --> 01:48:23,263
especially in the
Christian right,

2971
01:48:23,663 --> 01:48:24,831
are operating out
of that resentment.

2972
01:48:25,432 --> 01:48:27,767
And they're just trying to
figure out how to fight back

2973
01:48:27,767 --> 01:48:30,904
and win and beat some
people that they are,

2974
01:48:31,371 --> 01:48:33,773
beat some woke people because
they're ruining the world.

2975
01:48:34,107 --> 01:48:35,642
And they're missing
the whole point

2976
01:48:35,642 --> 01:48:37,010
of what they're here for.

2977
01:48:37,177 --> 01:48:39,880
And they fall into
a battle mentality

2978
01:48:39,880 --> 01:48:41,715
and it's not appropriate
for a Christian.

2979
01:48:41,915 --> 01:48:43,116
And you just need
to challenge that

2980
01:48:43,116 --> 01:48:44,150
kind of fundamental thing.

2981
01:48:44,217 --> 01:48:45,752
And then you can move forward
into some of the details.

2982
01:48:45,952 --> 01:48:47,387
And the details, you
might even agree.

2983
01:48:47,521 --> 01:48:48,455
I should vote for this person.

2984
01:48:48,555 --> 01:48:49,089
Yep, I agree.

2985
01:48:49,456 --> 01:48:50,423
I should do this.

2986
01:48:50,757 --> 01:48:51,291
Yeah, I agree.

2987
01:48:51,558 --> 01:48:53,260
But be careful about
why you're doing it

2988
01:48:53,260 --> 01:48:54,928
and what your objective is.

2989
01:48:55,562 --> 01:48:57,731
Well, I mean, I'm trying to,

2990
01:48:57,731 --> 01:48:59,933
I'm not sure if you're right,

2991
01:49:00,166 --> 01:49:01,401
but you are like the good guy.

2992
01:49:01,568 --> 01:49:01,935
Oh.

2993
01:49:02,002 --> 01:49:02,602
You're more of a good guy.

2994
01:49:03,036 --> 01:49:03,470
I'm out.

2995
01:49:03,503 --> 01:49:04,170
I'm out.

2996
01:49:04,337 --> 01:49:04,671
I'm out.

2997
01:49:04,871 --> 01:49:07,340
You don't live off
the grid one day

2998
01:49:07,340 --> 01:49:08,775
and not on the grid.

2999
01:49:09,042 --> 01:49:10,010
I don't want to
go off the grid.

3000
01:49:10,877 --> 01:49:12,479
I don't want to
go off the grid.

3001
01:49:12,579 --> 01:49:15,482
I find that's actually
a good thing.

3002
01:49:15,482 --> 01:49:15,949
Yeah, okay.

3003
01:49:16,249 --> 01:49:18,685
So yeah, the Benedict
option, check out, I'm done.

3004
01:49:18,852 --> 01:49:19,486
I'm going to go off the grid.

3005
01:49:19,619 --> 01:49:20,788
I'm going to go do my own

3006
01:49:20,830 --> 01:49:22,522
Christian commune
sort of a thing.

3007
01:49:22,923 --> 01:49:23,924
So how do you handle that?

3008
01:49:24,124 --> 01:49:25,191
That's when you remind them,

3009
01:49:25,592 --> 01:49:27,427
God left us here
as his witnesses.

3010
01:49:27,694 --> 01:49:29,529
And if you're living
in a commune,

3011
01:49:29,596 --> 01:49:31,031
you're keeping your
people safe, great.

3012
01:49:31,131 --> 01:49:33,099
And I'm a big fan of
security and safety.

3013
01:49:33,099 --> 01:49:35,335
And I talked about
that some, you know,

3014
01:49:35,569 --> 01:49:36,803
in my teaching too.

3015
01:49:36,803 --> 01:49:38,071
I'm a big fan of that,

3016
01:49:38,104 --> 01:49:39,906
but we have to be
careful that we're doing it

3017
01:49:39,906 --> 01:49:41,408
for the purpose of
equipping people

3018
01:49:41,408 --> 01:49:42,876
to be better
witnesses in the world.

3019
01:49:43,143 --> 01:49:44,844
The goal is never
to preserve ourselves

3020
01:49:44,844 --> 01:49:45,979
until Jesus comes back.

3021
01:49:46,313 --> 01:49:47,347
He's going to take care of us.

3022
01:49:47,447 --> 01:49:50,116
Our job is to equip
people to be strong enough

3023
01:49:50,116 --> 01:49:51,551
and confident enough
in their confession.

3024
01:49:51,551 --> 01:49:54,020
So they go out and
confess in the world

3025
01:49:54,020 --> 01:49:55,555
and we can't reject it.

3026
01:49:55,655 --> 01:49:57,190
Paul is crystal clear on this.

3027
01:49:57,924 --> 01:50:01,461
I'm reminded in 1 Corinthians
5 at the tail end of that,

3028
01:50:01,461 --> 01:50:03,263
where he's writing
about the problem

3029
01:50:03,263 --> 01:50:06,199
with the brother caught in
sin with his mother's wife,

3030
01:50:06,566 --> 01:50:07,233
his father's wife,

3031
01:50:07,434 --> 01:50:09,569
just a horrendous 1
Corinthians 5 story.

3032
01:50:09,803 --> 01:50:10,904
But the tail end
of that, he says,

3033
01:50:11,371 --> 01:50:14,007
when I told you not to
associate with swindlers

3034
01:50:14,007 --> 01:50:16,276
and murderers and idolaters,

3035
01:50:16,276 --> 01:50:18,478
I did not mean people
out there in the world.

3036
01:50:18,945 --> 01:50:21,848
I meant people in the church
who are doing those things.

3037
01:50:22,082 --> 01:50:24,384
Because otherwise you
would have to leave the world.

3038
01:50:24,851 --> 01:50:25,852
And his implication is,

3039
01:50:26,086 --> 01:50:27,253
you're not supposed
to leave the world.

3040
01:50:27,354 --> 01:50:28,488
I want you out there.

3041
01:50:28,788 --> 01:50:30,190
And so that's Paul.

3042
01:50:30,190 --> 01:50:31,691
And it's right there.

3043
01:50:32,225 --> 01:50:33,827
So yeah, so in
1 Corinthians 5,

3044
01:50:34,294 --> 01:50:35,195
you belong in the world.

3045
01:50:35,195 --> 01:50:36,429
That's where you're
supposed to be,

3046
01:50:36,529 --> 01:50:38,598
not running away from it.

3047
01:50:39,366 --> 01:50:40,367
Okay, good.

3048
01:50:41,635 --> 01:50:43,136
Yeah, I think it's
probably some,

3049
01:50:43,937 --> 01:50:45,538
if your friend
doesn't need it,

3050
01:50:46,006 --> 01:50:49,609
his mother started off
talking about the mistake

3051
01:50:49,609 --> 01:50:52,812
and then working
her way into 2 or 3.

3052
01:50:53,346 --> 01:50:53,813
Uh huh.

3053
01:50:53,980 --> 01:50:58,451
Even had lots of links to
other, other, other materials.

3054
01:50:58,618 --> 01:50:58,918
Yeah.

3055
01:51:03,056 --> 01:51:03,490
Yeah.

3056
01:51:09,696 --> 01:51:10,130
Yeah.

3057
01:51:15,168 --> 01:51:17,037
Yeah, I think, you know,

3058
01:51:17,404 --> 01:51:18,872
pastors sometimes need
a little encouragement

3059
01:51:18,872 --> 01:51:19,606
from the people to say,

3060
01:51:19,873 --> 01:51:21,441
I don't think it would
be wrong for you

3061
01:51:21,975 --> 01:51:23,877
to be a little more
outspoken about

3062
01:51:24,477 --> 01:51:26,012
what it means for us to
be Christians in the world.

3063
01:51:26,312 --> 01:51:27,714
And just encourage
them to that.

3064
01:51:27,714 --> 01:51:28,815
And if they're,
you know, doubtful,

3065
01:51:28,948 --> 01:51:29,549
you can say, you know,

3066
01:51:29,549 --> 01:51:31,284
I heard somebody talk
about this stuff, you know.

3067
01:51:32,218 --> 01:51:33,553
And it's what,

3068
01:51:34,120 --> 01:51:37,323
as a man who was a
parish pastor for 11 years,

3069
01:51:37,357 --> 01:51:39,893
I would say parishioners
are the most effective,

3070
01:51:39,926 --> 01:51:41,494
not when they come
and tell you you're wrong.

3071
01:51:42,395 --> 01:51:44,164
Most people don't like
hearing that, even pastors.

3072
01:51:45,231 --> 01:51:46,533
They're most effective
when they come

3073
01:51:46,533 --> 01:51:51,271
and encourage you to do
your task even more fully.

3074
01:51:51,571 --> 01:51:53,073
So in other words, you can,

3075
01:51:53,239 --> 01:51:55,308
I think you can serve
your sheep even better

3076
01:51:55,308 --> 01:51:57,711
by not being afraid to
address some of these issues.

3077
01:51:57,877 --> 01:51:58,845
We'd all benefit from that.

3078
01:51:58,945 --> 01:51:59,579
You have a lot of wisdom.

3079
01:51:59,746 --> 01:52:00,413
Why don't you
share that with us?

3080
01:52:00,647 --> 01:52:01,548
You always go for that angle.

3081
01:52:01,915 --> 01:52:03,016
You have a lot
to share with us.

3082
01:52:03,049 --> 01:52:04,384
We'd love to
hear it, you know.

3083
01:52:04,751 --> 01:52:05,852
Ooh, yeah, I think I do.

3084
01:52:07,454 --> 01:52:09,789
Yeah, it's, pastors
are humans too.

3085
01:52:10,090 --> 01:52:11,175
But I think, yeah, don't be

3086
01:52:11,217 --> 01:52:12,592
afraid to talk
to them about it,

3087
01:52:12,726 --> 01:52:14,728
but do it always in
a kind way, yeah.

3088
01:52:15,095 --> 01:52:15,295
Yes.

3089
01:52:21,835 --> 01:52:22,869
Yeah, don't do that.

3090
01:52:23,036 --> 01:52:23,703
Yeah, that's a good point.

3091
01:52:25,505 --> 01:52:28,575
The Presidium got
together on this and wrestled.

3092
01:52:28,708 --> 01:52:32,679
This is an unusual thing
to come from Paul Todman

3093
01:52:32,679 --> 01:52:33,913
really or the Duke
of Washington.

3094
01:52:33,980 --> 01:52:36,349
He's not, but I think
he's a young guy.

3095
01:52:36,883 --> 01:52:37,484
We hate him.

3096
01:52:37,784 --> 01:52:39,385
This is a whole
different answer

3097
01:52:39,385 --> 01:52:41,755
than a lot of thought
that went into it.

3098
01:52:42,655 --> 01:52:46,426
Unless you're in trouble with
ecclesiastical supervision

3099
01:52:46,426 --> 01:52:49,896
and you're about to get
thrown out, it's all advisory.

3100
01:52:50,530 --> 01:52:50,830
That's right.

3101
01:52:50,964 --> 01:52:52,165
People need to remember that.

3102
01:52:52,165 --> 01:52:52,799
No, that's right.

3103
01:52:52,899 --> 01:52:54,234
The Senate is
here to be advisory

3104
01:52:54,234 --> 01:52:55,769
and you're exactly right.

3105
01:52:55,935 --> 01:52:57,504
So you're speaking from, yeah,

3106
01:52:57,804 --> 01:52:59,706
and we're hearing from inside

3107
01:52:59,706 --> 01:53:02,075
how the district was
thinking about these things.

3108
01:53:02,509 --> 01:53:03,777
We're serving on the district.

3109
01:53:05,044 --> 01:53:06,513
Yeah, and so the
district is not trying

3110
01:53:06,513 --> 01:53:08,081
to be heavy handed
here and not forcing.

3111
01:53:08,248 --> 01:53:09,682
They're just offering
some thoughts.

3112
01:53:10,183 --> 01:53:13,386
And I think there are
times when it's appropriate,

3113
01:53:13,586 --> 01:53:16,189
I think, especially in
situations like Amendment 3,

3114
01:53:16,222 --> 01:53:18,024
which is just a bad idea.

3115
01:53:18,091 --> 01:53:19,025
It's bad legislation.

3116
01:53:19,125 --> 01:53:20,160
It's just bad all
the way around.

3117
01:53:20,393 --> 01:53:22,796
And the church
should be not sitting

3118
01:53:22,796 --> 01:53:23,830
on the sidelines on this.

3119
01:53:23,830 --> 01:53:26,099
We should be telling
people, this is a bad thing.

3120
01:53:26,299 --> 01:53:28,234
Because it drives
me crazy to think

3121
01:53:28,234 --> 01:53:29,969
that I could have people
in my congregation

3122
01:53:29,969 --> 01:53:32,906
that might actually go out
and pull a lever, yes, on that

3123
01:53:32,906 --> 01:53:34,541
because they want
to be nice to mothers

3124
01:53:34,541 --> 01:53:37,043
or to somebody
who is telling them

3125
01:53:37,043 --> 01:53:38,311
that I have a right to choose.

3126
01:53:38,611 --> 01:53:39,612
Well, yeah, I think
maybe women,

3127
01:53:39,813 --> 01:53:40,713
we don't want to
put women down.

3128
01:53:41,214 --> 01:53:42,081
They need to be taught.

3129
01:53:42,649 --> 01:53:44,050
And so the people
in my congregation

3130
01:53:44,050 --> 01:53:45,318
should be at least taught.

3131
01:53:45,685 --> 01:53:47,253
And if I'm the one
to do it, absolutely.

3132
01:53:47,387 --> 01:53:48,388
I'm the pastor,
I should do that.

3133
01:53:48,621 --> 01:53:49,423
That's not, you're not

3134
01:53:49,465 --> 01:53:50,690
sticking your
nose in politics.

3135
01:53:51,224 --> 01:53:52,692
You're helping people
think of what it means

3136
01:53:52,692 --> 01:53:54,127
to be a Christian
in the world.

3137
01:53:55,295 --> 01:53:55,595
Yeah, good.

3138
01:53:56,429 --> 01:53:59,766
You talked about the
awkward suggestions

3139
01:53:59,766 --> 01:54:03,269
and how it is the
pastor who's trying to

3140
01:54:03,269 --> 01:54:04,404
replace the Christian.

3141
01:54:04,604 --> 01:54:04,904
Yeah.

3142
01:54:04,904 --> 01:54:06,873
And people who try to pass it.

3143
01:54:07,774 --> 01:54:11,010
And I had one of the lay
leaders in my congregation

3144
01:54:11,010 --> 01:54:13,379
who was talking about free.

3145
01:54:13,713 --> 01:54:17,083
And my congregation signed
out on the law, Bill and Lee.

3146
01:54:17,517 --> 01:54:17,784
Okay.

3147
01:54:19,419 --> 01:54:21,387
And he's been an
pastor and taught

3148
01:54:21,387 --> 01:54:25,124
about using a focus on
religious communication

3149
01:54:25,792 --> 01:54:27,293
about the religious model.

3150
01:54:28,561 --> 01:54:30,830
And when I talked
to his lay leader,

3151
01:54:31,064 --> 01:54:34,934
he said, well, he was pastor
and pastor, but we can't.

3152
01:54:35,668 --> 01:54:39,606
And I thought, well, I
think the pastor's our leader

3153
01:54:39,606 --> 01:54:41,774
and he's just followed
the way that he does it.

3154
01:54:42,041 --> 01:54:42,909
But we need to be paid.

3155
01:54:44,143 --> 01:54:45,492
But I was kind of removed

3156
01:54:45,534 --> 01:54:47,313
because I thought
it was common

3157
01:54:47,981 --> 01:54:50,750
for the leaders to go, well,
we can do what we want to do

3158
01:54:50,750 --> 01:54:51,951
and we can do
what we want to do.

3159
01:54:52,352 --> 01:54:54,053
Yeah, you're kind of
missing the point there.

3160
01:54:54,287 --> 01:54:56,623
And your point too is
if a congregation puts

3161
01:54:56,623 --> 01:54:58,491
that yard sign
out, in a sense,

3162
01:54:58,625 --> 01:54:59,592
and somebody
said this earlier,

3163
01:54:59,792 --> 01:55:02,495
and we can debate this, you're
gonna have different ways

3164
01:55:02,495 --> 01:55:03,429
of coming down on this.

3165
01:55:03,897 --> 01:55:05,064
We're really
answering the question,

3166
01:55:05,231 --> 01:55:08,001
how best do we witness
to that world around us?

3167
01:55:08,101 --> 01:55:10,169
And do I do it by
sticking a yard sign in

3168
01:55:10,169 --> 01:55:12,038
or putting up a big,
you know, whatever?

3169
01:55:12,672 --> 01:55:14,207
I don't know, I'm
not convinced of that.

3170
01:55:14,374 --> 01:55:17,143
And so I would be reluctant
to do that as a congregation.

3171
01:55:17,343 --> 01:55:19,178
As an individual member
in your neighborhood,

3172
01:55:19,846 --> 01:55:22,282
you're inclined, you know,
that's your prerogative.

3173
01:55:22,448 --> 01:55:23,883
But see, the church needs
to be a place that says,

3174
01:55:24,217 --> 01:55:26,419
we're here to proclaim
Christ and his truth.

3175
01:55:26,586 --> 01:55:27,754
And yes, that is included.

3176
01:55:28,087 --> 01:55:29,756
Now, maybe what you
do is you put a sign up of,

3177
01:55:30,089 --> 01:55:31,891
God created life,
let's care for it.

3178
01:55:31,925 --> 01:55:33,693
I'm fine with that, okay?

3179
01:55:33,893 --> 01:55:35,428
But that's different
than being, you know,

3180
01:55:35,495 --> 01:55:37,363
taking a particularly
partisan thing

3181
01:55:37,363 --> 01:55:38,765
that people get really
worked up about.

3182
01:55:39,165 --> 01:55:41,134
And so you need
to be a little bit wise

3183
01:55:41,134 --> 01:55:42,669
in the witness you're getting.

3184
01:55:42,835 --> 01:55:44,570
See, that's why I gave
you the Bonhoeffer quote.

3185
01:55:44,971 --> 01:55:46,372
Because what
Bonhoeffer's teaching us is,

3186
01:55:46,372 --> 01:55:48,908
pay attention to
the witness you give.

3187
01:55:49,676 --> 01:55:51,044
And that's what I think as
Christians we need to do

3188
01:55:51,044 --> 01:55:52,912
is pay attention to the
witness you're giving.

3189
01:55:53,279 --> 01:55:54,647
What are you telling
the people around you?

3190
01:55:54,747 --> 01:55:56,816
How are you witnessing
to them by how you live

3191
01:55:56,816 --> 01:55:57,750
and what you say?

3192
01:55:58,051 --> 01:56:00,119
That's what we need to
be really tuned into that.

3193
01:56:01,154 --> 01:56:02,956
All right, good.

3194
01:56:03,690 --> 01:56:04,857
Let's close with
a word of prayer

3195
01:56:05,425 --> 01:56:07,093
and then get you on
with the rest of your day.

3196
01:56:07,727 --> 01:56:08,895
And I'll say before I pray,

3197
01:56:08,995 --> 01:56:09,929
because then all of
a sudden we don't,

3198
01:56:10,163 --> 01:56:11,230
amen when we're out of here.

3199
01:56:11,831 --> 01:56:12,665
Thank you for coming.

3200
01:56:12,765 --> 01:56:14,767
It's been a delight
spending some time with you.

3201
01:56:15,468 --> 01:56:17,704
Guys giving five hours
on a Saturday, it kills me.

3202
01:56:17,770 --> 01:56:18,471
I can't believe you did that.

3203
01:56:18,571 --> 01:56:19,772
I didn't wanna
do it, but I'm here.

3204
01:56:20,473 --> 01:56:22,642
But I had to,
because I committed.

3205
01:56:22,976 --> 01:56:24,877
But you guys came voluntarily,
so that's remarkable.

3206
01:56:25,345 --> 01:56:28,781
And I applaud your
patience and your attention.

3207
01:56:28,881 --> 01:56:30,550
It's been a delight
spending time with you.

3208
01:56:30,583 --> 01:56:33,286
And I hope something
I've given you will help you

3209
01:56:33,286 --> 01:56:35,388
as you're thinking things
out and sorting things out.

3210
01:56:35,722 --> 01:56:36,389
So let's pray.

3211
01:56:37,256 --> 01:56:39,359
Oh God, we thank you
that you have called us

3212
01:56:39,359 --> 01:56:40,126
to be your people.

3213
01:56:40,426 --> 01:56:43,196
And you've given us
our Savior Jesus Christ

3214
01:56:43,196 --> 01:56:45,932
who came into this
world to give us your truth

3215
01:56:45,932 --> 01:56:47,900
and to give us your gospel
and your forgiveness,

3216
01:56:48,001 --> 01:56:49,102
which we desperately need.

3217
01:56:49,569 --> 01:56:52,205
Help us to live in that
reality and be so delighted

3218
01:56:52,205 --> 01:56:54,741
and so overwhelmed with
the joy and gratitude we have

3219
01:56:54,741 --> 01:56:57,076
in that gospel, that we
live truly as your people

3220
01:56:57,076 --> 01:56:57,610
in this world.

3221
01:56:58,144 --> 01:56:59,912
Give us renewed
confidence as we go out

3222
01:56:59,912 --> 01:57:02,148
into a world broken
and infected with sin

3223
01:57:02,148 --> 01:57:03,683
and every day
seeming to get worse.

3224
01:57:04,050 --> 01:57:06,185
Give us confidence to
know that you are the Lord

3225
01:57:06,185 --> 01:57:06,753
of this world.

3226
01:57:07,120 --> 01:57:09,188
You're coming again and
you'll make all things new.

3227
01:57:09,489 --> 01:57:11,524
And until then,
help us to be faithful

3228
01:57:11,524 --> 01:57:13,926
in our own families,
in our congregations,

3229
01:57:14,227 --> 01:57:16,696
in our neighborhoods,
faithfully speaking your truth

3230
01:57:16,696 --> 01:57:18,798
and declaring your
reality and the way we live

3231
01:57:18,798 --> 01:57:19,465
and the way we talk.

3232
01:57:19,966 --> 01:57:21,801
All these things we
pray in Christ, amen.

3233
01:57:22,769 --> 01:57:24,604
Many blessings guys,
thank you very much.