WEBVTT 1 00:00:22.900 --> 00:00:26.600 Hello and welcome to Word and Work an Intersection. 2 00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:28.300 I'm your host, Dale Meyer. 3 00:00:29.700 --> 00:00:34.500 You might wonder, how does our Concordia Seminary 4 00:00:35.900 --> 00:00:39.000 fit into the world of North American Seminaries? 5 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:41.500 With us today is Dr. 6 00:00:41.500 --> 00:00:42.600 Daniel Aleshire. 7 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:48.300 He is a former executive director of The Association of Theological 8 00:00:48.300 --> 00:00:54.700 Schools and he is also written a new book, Beyond Profession: The 9 00:00:54.700 --> 00:00:56.600 Next Future of Theological Education. 10 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:03.700 We want to talk with Doctor Aleshire about seminaries and see how our 11 00:01:03.700 --> 00:01:08.200 Concordia Seminaries are doing in this very interesting world. Dan 12 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:09.400 thanks for joining us today. 13 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:13.600 I got to say, up front in my fifteen years as President 14 00:01:13.600 --> 00:01:18.800 you and the ATS were a blessing that I cannot adequately. 15 00:01:18.800 --> 00:01:22.600 thank you and the ATS for all that you did to encourage support to 16 00:01:22.600 --> 00:01:26.500 provide information as I tried to mumble my way through office. 17 00:01:26.500 --> 00:01:32.600 So with that word, welcome. Thanks Dale, and you did wonderful work 18 00:01:32.600 --> 00:01:34.000 at Concordia Seminary. 19 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:35.600 As I've told you in other context. 20 00:01:36.800 --> 00:01:41.500 So you and I entered the seminary in the same year 21 00:01:41.500 --> 00:01:46.500 obviously different seminaries. What led you to the seminary 22 00:01:46.500 --> 00:01:49.300 and at what seminary did you study? 23 00:01:50.600 --> 00:01:56.200 My MDiv is from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, 24 00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:56.900 Kentucky. 25 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:07.000 And I had grew up a Baptist and had gone to a Baptist College. 26 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:13.600 And the southern seemed to be the right fit for where I was in my 27 00:02:13.600 --> 00:02:18.600 perceptions of ministry and my intellectual curiosity about 28 00:02:18.600 --> 00:02:21.100 Theology and the work of the church in the world. 29 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.500 After your graduation 30 00:02:23.500 --> 00:02:25.200 where did your career take you? 31 00:02:25.200 --> 00:02:28.200 I finished a PhD in Psychology. 32 00:02:28.200 --> 00:02:30.000 I struggled 33 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:32.700 how my Ministry was going to be expressed. 34 00:02:32.700 --> 00:02:40.300 Was it going to be as a pastor, or as a professor in a denominational 35 00:02:40.300 --> 00:02:42.700 college or other context? 36 00:02:42.700 --> 00:02:49.300 But after my PhD, I was a pastor in New Jersey for a few years 37 00:02:49.300 --> 00:02:55.800 and then I took a job with the Search Institute, which is where I 38 00:02:55.800 --> 00:02:57.900 first got acquainted with a lot of Lutherans. 39 00:02:57.900 --> 00:03:04.300 They're located in Minneapolis and Search Institute in the former name 40 00:03:04.300 --> 00:03:10.400 is is the Research Center that had completed a study of generations and 41 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:16.100 my colleague Milo Brekkie have done a study of Lutheran Schools. 42 00:03:16.100 --> 00:03:21.800 So there was a time when I joined the faculty of 43 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:31.100 Southern Seminary in Louisville for 12 years and in 1990 joined the staff of Association of Theological Schools 44 00:03:31.100 --> 00:03:35.700 and spent almost 30 years at ATS. One of our 45 00:03:35.700 --> 00:03:39.100 Seminary faculty is 46 00:03:40.900 --> 00:03:41.500 Dr. 47 00:03:41.500 --> 00:03:42.200 Mark Seifrid. 48 00:03:42.200 --> 00:03:48.200 And he knows you from from Louisville and then he would say, greetings 49 00:03:48.200 --> 00:03:48.500 to you. 50 00:03:48.500 --> 00:03:53.500 Send mine to him. 51 00:03:53.500 --> 00:03:59.600 So there is a thread that runs through that. 52 00:03:59.600 --> 00:04:05.200 That you see when you get to our point in career Dale where you see 53 00:04:05.200 --> 00:04:09.200 things that may have looked disjointed at one time, how they flowed 54 00:04:09.200 --> 00:04:10.200 into one another. 55 00:04:10.200 --> 00:04:15.300 And that's that's been the story of what's happened since my Seminary 56 00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:15.700 days. 57 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:18.800 You're retired 58 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:21.100 I think for four years that correct? Yeah. 59 00:04:21.100 --> 00:04:28.100 And, and so one of your great contributions in retirement is this book 60 00:04:28.100 --> 00:04:29.600 "Beyond Profession". 61 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:35.500 So, can you give us an overview of of why you wrote it and just a 62 00:04:35.500 --> 00:04:36.500 general introduction? 63 00:04:36.500 --> 00:04:43.300 I am writing a review of "Beyond Profession" for our Concordia Journal and I 64 00:04:43.300 --> 00:04:47.000 guarantee you having having read the book it, if it's wonderful. I 65 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:52.300 found it very, very helpful coming out of Seminary Administration but 66 00:04:52.300 --> 00:04:57.400 but what prompted you to write the book, Dan? There are two prompts 67 00:04:57.400 --> 00:04:57.700 for 68 00:04:57.700 --> 00:05:01.800 it, one was during my final years at ATS 69 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:05.000 I was beginning to see what I thought 70 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:11.500 was a major change emerging and perhaps a need for even more change to 71 00:05:11.500 --> 00:05:13.400 emerge about the theological schools. 72 00:05:13.400 --> 00:05:16.000 The other is that 73 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:22.400 this book is part of a series of books related to theological 74 00:05:22.400 --> 00:05:31.600 education that is a project called theological education between the times. 75 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:36.600 Which is a significant title for the project. 76 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:40.400 We know what theological education has been and the work that it has 77 00:05:40.400 --> 00:05:44.700 done and we feel like it's changing but we're not quite sure what all 78 00:05:44.700 --> 00:05:49.300 it's going to look like in the future. And this is one of 10 or 12 79 00:05:49.300 --> 00:05:49.500 books 80 00:05:49.500 --> 00:05:53.600 actually that will be published over the next several years 81 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:57.300 as part of this project. We've been working as a group of scholars 82 00:05:57.300 --> 00:05:59.400 together thinking about it. 83 00:05:59.400 --> 00:06:03.200 Each of us taking very different tracks so I used the occasion of 84 00:06:03.200 --> 00:06:10.100 my participation as with this group to pursue, what I thought was 85 00:06:10.100 --> 00:06:14.200 happening or needed to happen in theological education, that's the 86 00:06:14.200 --> 00:06:15.100 occasion of the book. 87 00:06:15.100 --> 00:06:16.400 And it, it's 88 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:22.200 very helpful and much of our Word and Work today is going to be just 89 00:06:22.200 --> 00:06:27.500 reviewing some of the, some of the highlights of "Beyond Profession." 90 00:06:27.500 --> 00:06:34.200 Now, I know this is not news to you, but sometimes the Lutheran 91 00:06:34.200 --> 00:06:39.100 Church-Missouri Synod thinks were the only ones in the kingdom of God. 92 00:06:41.900 --> 00:06:48.000 And so looking at our seminaries in light of the other, what is it 93 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:54.200 280, some accredited seminaries in North America is really instructive 94 00:06:54.200 --> 00:06:56.000 and I think it's encouraging. 95 00:06:57.700 --> 00:07:04.400 Could you give us a brief history of protestant seminaries in North 96 00:07:04.400 --> 00:07:04.600 America? 97 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:12.800 Going back all the way if you would to Colonial times. The founding of the 98 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:20.900 first American colleges and universities was in part an effort to 99 00:07:20.900 --> 00:07:27.400 provide training for ministers. Harvard and Yale began that way as did 100 00:07:27.400 --> 00:07:32.700 the College of New Jersey, which became Princeton as did Brown as did 101 00:07:32.700 --> 00:07:44.000 of William and Mary. In the 1700's a number of colleges are founded 102 00:07:44.700 --> 00:07:49.500 and all of them include among their missions, the education of clergy. 103 00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:56.000 And in that era the clergy education was very similar to the general 104 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:56.700 education 105 00:07:56.700 --> 00:07:57.800 that anyone got 106 00:07:57.800 --> 00:07:58.900 going to college. 107 00:07:58.900 --> 00:08:03.800 It was studying the classics and and the liberal arts and scripture and 108 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:10.300 Theology and languages and one you could take that degree and work in 109 00:08:10.300 --> 00:08:14.400 Ministry or 1 to take that degree and work in some form of Public 110 00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:20.200 Service in law or any number. At that point, education was not 111 00:08:20.200 --> 00:08:22.800 specialized and diversified the way it is 112 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:27.900 now. That was the first big movement and all of 113 00:08:28.900 --> 00:08:29.500 Higher education 114 00:08:29.500 --> 00:08:31.800 in the colonies 115 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:39.200 had ministerial education as part of their mission. Yeah, and that's interesting because today, we 116 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:41.700 have specialized theological education. 117 00:08:41.700 --> 00:08:46.500 And as I understand it from your book, you know, that developed in the 118 00:08:46.500 --> 00:08:50.900 early eighteen hundreds and had significant impact. Could could you 119 00:08:50.900 --> 00:08:52.200 talk about moving from 120 00:08:53.700 --> 00:08:57.000 training our ministers in a general university setting to 121 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:01.100 founding, freestanding seminaries. Well 122 00:09:01.100 --> 00:09:09.700 the freestanding seminaries have two or three reasons why I think they 123 00:09:09.700 --> 00:09:16.900 came into being. One was the connection between the church and the 124 00:09:16.900 --> 00:09:18.000 theological school. 125 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:26.100 So for example, the Presbyterians formed the Presbyterian, the 126 00:09:26.100 --> 00:09:30.900 Princeton Theological Seminary out of Princeton out of the quite a 127 00:09:30.900 --> 00:09:35.400 bit, because they wanted a more direct pattern of control of the 128 00:09:35.400 --> 00:09:39.500 education, their pastors were receiving. And the University was 129 00:09:39.500 --> 00:09:44.300 expanding and that pattern of direct control would not be present. 130 00:09:44.300 --> 00:09:53.100 There was a perception that the ministers needed more, specialized 131 00:09:53.100 --> 00:09:58.200 training, in the 1800's and that continued through 132 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:04.800 that entire a century and that training became possible with schools 133 00:10:04.800 --> 00:10:09.300 that were separate institutions from general-purpose, higher education 134 00:10:09.300 --> 00:10:15.500 institutions and that was an academic kind of reason. And the 135 00:10:15.500 --> 00:10:20.300 schools that did remain in the larger universities became Divinity 136 00:10:20.300 --> 00:10:23.400 schools within those larger universities or sections 137 00:10:23.400 --> 00:10:27.400 so, even though they were part of Yale or Harvard, they were, they 138 00:10:27.400 --> 00:10:30.700 were crafted into their own educational entity. 139 00:10:30.700 --> 00:10:35.300 It's interesting, this is one of the problems with Zoom. 140 00:10:35.300 --> 00:10:40.200 It is interesting to me that, you know it was in that period 141 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:44.400 that the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod established, its two seminars, 142 00:10:44.400 --> 00:10:45.800 Concordia Seminary St. 143 00:10:45.800 --> 00:10:49.300 Louis and Concordia, Theological, Seminary in Fort Wayne. 144 00:10:49.300 --> 00:10:56.000 So with with our unique history in the Missouri Synod yet we fit 145 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:58.100 into the pattern of the of what was 146 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:06.600 going on in American culture. Virtually all the schools founded in the 19th century, after the forming of 147 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:11.700 the United States, where freestanding theological schools in some 148 00:11:11.700 --> 00:11:15.900 cases, a college and a seminary where were founded together. 149 00:11:15.900 --> 00:11:21.400 But for the most part through that century and then into the early 150 00:11:21.400 --> 00:11:27.000 part of the of the twentieth century, the schools were founded were 151 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:27.600 like the two 152 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:33.000 schools related to the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, they were 153 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:36.400 free-standing. And the question 154 00:11:36.400 --> 00:11:41.900 during part of the 18th century was were they going to require the 155 00:11:41.900 --> 00:11:45.800 Baccalaureate many of the freestanding seminaries were actually 156 00:11:45.800 --> 00:11:48.000 operating at the Baccalaureate level 157 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:51.900 they were not operating what was considered the graduate level, that, 158 00:11:51.900 --> 00:11:57.900 that doesn't come about until the first third of the, of the 159 00:11:58.200 --> 00:11:58.900 20th century. 160 00:12:00.900 --> 00:12:04.700 So, moving through the 19th century 161 00:12:06.500 --> 00:12:13.700 when we get to the turn of the century near your 1900, you wrote that 162 00:12:13.700 --> 00:12:15.800 there was great optimism 163 00:12:17.100 --> 00:12:22.400 among Protestants for the work of the church and in seminaries, as 164 00:12:22.400 --> 00:12:25.900 they contribute to the work of the church, could you talk about that? 165 00:12:25.900 --> 00:12:28.500 You know, why that optimism 166 00:12:28.500 --> 00:12:33.300 and and then would happen to the twentieth century? Well there was 167 00:12:33.300 --> 00:12:38.200 considerable in the culture as a whole. It was, it was the modern era 168 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:48.700 the industrial culture had produced great wealth it had matured in the late 19th 169 00:12:48.700 --> 00:12:55.900 century and the church had grown significantly in its cultural 170 00:12:55.900 --> 00:12:56.700 presents. 171 00:12:56.700 --> 00:13:01.200 The specialized theological education had led the specialized 172 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:06.100 disciplines for theological studies, so they were looking at church 173 00:13:06.100 --> 00:13:10.800 history and Bible and theology differently than they had say before 174 00:13:10.800 --> 00:13:12.800 the Civil War. 175 00:13:12.800 --> 00:13:17.100 And there was a sense that everthing 176 00:13:17.100 --> 00:13:20.000 had the potential of getting better. 177 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.700 It was already good but it was going to get better. 178 00:13:23.700 --> 00:13:31.000 The the mag, one of the magazines that continues today the 179 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:35.300 Christian Century it was named in in 1900. 180 00:13:35.300 --> 00:13:40.100 This was going to be the century in which Christianity blossomed into 181 00:13:40.100 --> 00:13:43.500 full bloom in in the United States. 182 00:13:43.500 --> 00:13:47.400 It was, it was a time of optimism in business. 183 00:13:47.400 --> 00:13:52.600 It was a time of optimism in government, it was a time of optimism 184 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:53.400 in the church. 185 00:13:53.400 --> 00:13:57.100 It wasn't only that there were lots of problems that weren't being 186 00:13:57.100 --> 00:13:58.200 addressed at the time. 187 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:03.000 They were other issues going on, of course, but in general, there was 188 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:10.000 a confidence in social institutions, there was a confidence that things 189 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:14.000 because they were the things would be able to improve that need 190 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:16.800 to be improved, but they were already good and getting better. 191 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:22.300 You know, in our lifetimes, we have seen a lot of change in the 192 00:14:22.300 --> 00:14:26.900 confidence of the church, and the futureof seminaries and, and, you 193 00:14:26.900 --> 00:14:29.200 know, from your experience as I do from mine. 194 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:35.400 The people, our age grieve the loss of so much in in various 195 00:14:35.400 --> 00:14:37.300 denominationsand the life of the church. 196 00:14:37.300 --> 00:14:44.300 So it's interesting to me to contrast that optimism with the optimism 197 00:14:44.300 --> 00:14:50.200 or lack of optimism as we entered the 21st century and your book is 198 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:54.800 very enlightening on on that change in mood could just share the 199 00:14:54.800 --> 00:14:57.000 change and and how churches and 200 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.900 seminaries moved into the 21st century? 201 00:15:01.400 --> 00:15:04.000 That optimism really continued. 202 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:08.900 It was it was pressured in the 20th century with the depression which 203 00:15:08.900 --> 00:15:12.500 was a time when Church religious participation declined for a 204 00:15:12.500 --> 00:15:20.200 while but then after after World War II in the 50s it was sort of that optimism, 205 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:27.200 reached its peak that have been growing from an but then following the 206 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:32.800 60s to 70s and the 80s and the 90s that optimism begin to erode. 207 00:15:32.800 --> 00:15:38.600 So by the time, we get to the beginning of this century, there's a lot 208 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:40.700 of fundamental questioning going on. 209 00:15:40.700 --> 00:15:44.500 There's a fundamental questioning going on about government. 210 00:15:44.500 --> 00:15:48.300 There's a fundamental questioning going on about higher education. 211 00:15:48.300 --> 00:15:50.200 Is it really worth all the money 212 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:56.800 it cost? There's a fundamental question about religion and as we 213 00:15:56.800 --> 00:16:01.300 come into the into this century, this 21st century, 214 00:16:02.400 --> 00:16:04.000 probably 215 00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:09.900 I don't know if it's fair to say that it's a pessimistic moment but 216 00:16:09.900 --> 00:16:13.600 it's certainly a dramatically less optimistic moment. 217 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:18.800 And folks, like you and me that have watched stable, secure 218 00:16:18.800 --> 00:16:23.800 religious structures denominations and the structures 219 00:16:23.800 --> 00:16:28.200 those denominations created the colleges, the school's, the 220 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:32.100 hospital's, the care for a seniors 221 00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:38.500 all of those things have been the work of organized 222 00:16:38.500 --> 00:16:44.700 religion has been stressed in the last thirty or forty years. And 223 00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:50.000 at first, there was enough ballast to to handle all of that stress and 224 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:56.000 not worry about it and see it maybe is a blip on the screen or a but 225 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:58.300 by the time we're well into this century 226 00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:02.100 it is just impossible to ignore 227 00:17:02.100 --> 00:17:07.300 the things are not going in the direction of organized Christianity in 228 00:17:07.300 --> 00:17:08.700 this country. 229 00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:13.090 I mean, we could spend hours and hours talking about this, could you 230 00:17:13.090 --> 00:17:21.200 briefly talk about Roman Catholic seminaries and then the rise of 231 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:26.700 Evangelical Seminaries because America has been a Protestant mainline 232 00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:31.500 country for a long time, but, but Roman Catholic and now 233 00:17:31.500 --> 00:17:32.900 Evangelical seminaries 234 00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:35.600 have you have grown in their importance? 235 00:17:35.600 --> 00:17:45.500 Could you just briefly give us an overview of that? The Roman Catholic theological education kind of existed outside of 236 00:17:45.500 --> 00:17:50.800 the dominant higher system structures. Roman Catholics founded 237 00:17:50.800 --> 00:17:57.500 colleges, universities, and they follow the dominant patterns of of 238 00:17:57.500 --> 00:17:58.900 worth of US and 239 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.500 Canadian higher education in North America. But the seminaries remain 240 00:18:03.500 --> 00:18:04.900 much closer 241 00:18:04.900 --> 00:18:12.500 to either the, the dioceses or the religious order they function a 242 00:18:12.500 --> 00:18:16.600 little differently through the 19th and 20th Century. 243 00:18:16.600 --> 00:18:21.500 They grow with number, as the Catholic population rose dramatically. 244 00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:27.800 Roman Catholics are the dominant religious presence of under one name 245 00:18:27.800 --> 00:18:29.700 of any religious group. 246 00:18:29.700 --> 00:18:37.500 And they are about a consistent, 25% of the, of the American 247 00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:37.600 population. But Roman Catholic theological education 248 00:18:37.600 --> 00:18:43.300 one of the ways it's differed 249 00:18:43.300 --> 00:18:48.900 it has historically kind of understood its role, as forming persons 250 00:18:48.900 --> 00:18:51.100 for the ministerial priesthood. 251 00:18:51.100 --> 00:18:55.800 And there were theological ways of understanding that formational 252 00:18:55.800 --> 00:18:58.600 process and the sacramental way of understanding. 253 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:06.200 Ordination that supported that kind of a formational process of 254 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:07.400 theological education. 255 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:14.600 The twentieth century was a tough century for Protestants. In the 256 00:19:14.600 --> 00:19:15.100 early 257 00:19:15.100 --> 00:19:19.700 in the 1920s, there was a huge Protestant War called the modernist 258 00:19:19.700 --> 00:19:27.100 fundamentalist controversy and it divided Protestants in ways they 259 00:19:27.100 --> 00:19:28.000 had never been divided. 260 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.700 They've been divided denominational structures that were competitive. 261 00:19:31.700 --> 00:19:37.300 But this was this was a brand division that cut across denominational 262 00:19:37.300 --> 00:19:43.500 lines that resulted in the separation of some Baptist from other 263 00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:46.200 Baptist and some Methodist from other Methodist and some 264 00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:49.100 Presbyterian from other Presbyterians. 265 00:19:49.100 --> 00:19:55.600 And out of that, it appeared that the mainline denominations were the 266 00:19:55.600 --> 00:19:58.700 clear winners in the 1940s 267 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:00.300 and in the 1950. 268 00:20:00.300 --> 00:20:02.800 But what happened in the sixties, 269 00:20:02.800 --> 00:20:06.000 seventies, eighties, nineties and into this century. 270 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:12.600 The the more conservative Protestants out of that controversy emerged 271 00:20:12.600 --> 00:20:17.800 as the by the end of the century, the strongest Protestant presence. 272 00:20:17.800 --> 00:20:19.300 But there more 273 00:20:19.300 --> 00:20:23.200 if is there about twenty-one or twenty-two percent of the American 274 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:27.000 population would be, but identify themselves will be identified with 275 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:32.500 Evangelical protestantism about 14% of the population would be 276 00:20:32.500 --> 00:20:35.300 identified with mainline Protestantism. You 277 00:20:35.300 --> 00:20:40.300 and I can decide whether the LCMS is more Evangelical in it's 278 00:20:40.300 --> 00:20:42.000 orientation, or more mainline. 279 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:46.300 But if it's one of those communities that sort of sits in the middle 280 00:20:46.300 --> 00:20:56.700 between those two broad divisions. But now the majority of all Protestants, the majority of all students in Protestant 281 00:20:56.700 --> 00:20:58.500 seminaries are enrolled in 282 00:20:58.900 --> 00:21:04.300 Evangelical Protestant seminaries. What Dr. Aleshire said about where does the LCMS fit 283 00:21:04.300 --> 00:21:08.400 that was not a throwaway line because when it comes to our 284 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:14.600 participation in the ATS and they have various offerings, various 285 00:21:14.600 --> 00:21:20.200 various come together as for our education and encouragement. 286 00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:24.600 And one of those includes the presidential intensive week. 287 00:21:24.600 --> 00:21:29.100 When presidents of ATS seminaries gather together, and, and compare 288 00:21:29.100 --> 00:21:29.200 notes 289 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:33.100 and talk about this problem that problem this opportunity, or 290 00:21:33.100 --> 00:21:33.900 that opportunity. 291 00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:38.800 Anyway, one of the issues there is, where do LCMS seminaries fit, 292 00:21:38.800 --> 00:21:43.500 because, yeah, we're Mainline Protestant, a lot of our teachings are 293 00:21:43.500 --> 00:21:48.500 are closer to Evangelical beliefs. And interestingly 294 00:21:48.500 --> 00:21:52.700 enough Dan at the, at the last ATS meeting 295 00:21:52.700 --> 00:21:56.600 I attended a sectional of the Roman Catholic church because their 296 00:21:56.600 --> 00:21:57.700 similarities there. 297 00:21:57.700 --> 00:21:58.100 So 298 00:21:58.900 --> 00:22:03.900 in German in some ways and the word is unding, we're kind of 299 00:22:03.900 --> 00:22:07.500 an unding in these 280 seminaries. 300 00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:12.300 But but I'm glad where we are where we're at. 301 00:22:12.300 --> 00:22:16.700 Now, you're your book is titled "Beyond Profession" and you mentioned 302 00:22:16.700 --> 00:22:19.800 the Roman Catholic emphasis upon formation. 303 00:22:19.800 --> 00:22:23.500 Now, there's a word and we're going to take a short break and when we 304 00:22:23.500 --> 00:22:27.000 come back we're going to talk about the future of education in 305 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:27.600 seminaries. 306 00:22:27.600 --> 00:22:28.900 Stay with us. 307 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:32.100 Concordia Seminary St. 308 00:22:32.100 --> 00:22:36.900 Louis provides continuing education resources for pastors and lay 309 00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:40.500 people to discover all the Concordia Seminary has for you. 310 00:22:40.500 --> 00:22:44.500 Visit us on the web at CSL. 311 00:22:44.500 --> 00:22:45.100 EDU. 312 00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:50.700 Welcome back to Word and Work an Intersection. 313 00:22:50.700 --> 00:22:52.900 I'm your host Dale Meyer. 314 00:22:52.900 --> 00:22:54.500 We're talking today with Dr. 315 00:22:54.500 --> 00:22:58.700 Daniel Aleshire, who, for many, many years was with the Association of 316 00:22:58.700 --> 00:22:59.800 Theological Schools. 317 00:22:59.800 --> 00:23:02.390 The ATS is one of Concordia 318 00:23:02.390 --> 00:23:07.300 Seminary's accrediting agencies and also a source of information 319 00:23:07.300 --> 00:23:09.200 guidance and hope. 320 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:13.600 As we do, our work on behalf of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. 321 00:23:13.600 --> 00:23:21.000 Doctor Aleshire's new book "Beyond Profession". And I want to ask you Dan 322 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:28.100 you know about the formation of pastors and that's a keyword in in in 323 00:23:28.100 --> 00:23:31.000 your projections for the future, formation. 324 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:32.600 Would you talk about that please? 325 00:23:33.800 --> 00:23:39.400 Let me talk about it Dale in the context of why "Beyond Profession", 326 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:45.400 because it's the kind of theological education that both you and I, 327 00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:49.600 you received the Concordia Seminary, and I at Southern Seminary in 328 00:23:49.600 --> 00:23:55.000 Louisville was a kind of professional theological education. 329 00:23:55.000 --> 00:24:00.600 It assumed that we were the Christian people that we were that you 330 00:24:00.600 --> 00:24:01.300 were the Lutheran 331 00:24:01.300 --> 00:24:05.400 I was the Baptist that we were, we've already been through a system. 332 00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:14.900 And, and so what happened was intellectual formation in the, in the 333 00:24:14.900 --> 00:24:20.500 disciplines of Theology and Biblical studies and to learn the skills of 334 00:24:20.500 --> 00:24:25.400 Ministry. It was, it was the ministerial paralleled, what we would 335 00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:28.500 expect lawyers would be learning or physicians would be learning. 336 00:24:29.600 --> 00:24:35.800 And that is profession, one way of thinking about profession and we 337 00:24:35.800 --> 00:24:38.100 had a professional theological education. 338 00:24:40.290 --> 00:24:44.800 What is changed, or what is changing, or what needs to change more 339 00:24:44.800 --> 00:24:50.500 is that the ecclesial systems of, which you 340 00:24:50.500 --> 00:24:53.800 and I were participants are so completely different now. 341 00:24:54.800 --> 00:25:00.200 People come to Seminary from all kinds of backgrounds from all kinds 342 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:01.200 of environments. 343 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:06.500 They have been Christians from cradle or they've been in church since 344 00:25:06.500 --> 00:25:15.900 they were in the cradle room or they came in recently or they have 345 00:25:15.900 --> 00:25:22.300 they have been some other denomination and became Lutheran and came to 346 00:25:22.300 --> 00:25:28.100 Concordia Seminary in most, so they only more recently. 347 00:25:28.100 --> 00:25:35.900 So what happens is that you have people who are not necessarily deeply 348 00:25:35.900 --> 00:25:36.600 formed 349 00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.400 as Christian human beings, even though they are deeply committed, 350 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:46.600 Christian and you have people who are not necessarily formed as 351 00:25:46.600 --> 00:25:48.900 deeply related in a ecclesial community. 352 00:25:48.900 --> 00:25:58.300 And and so the kind of theological education that they need is is not 353 00:25:58.300 --> 00:26:02.200 just how to get knowledge and skills, it how to be Christian 354 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:08.900 human beings. How to be people who understand deeply, a way of 355 00:26:08.900 --> 00:26:11.500 particular community, that was about being Christian. 356 00:26:11.500 --> 00:26:17.800 I might and I might interject and say, Concordia Seminary and 357 00:26:17.800 --> 00:26:23.300 also Concordia Theological Seminary, serve exclusively, the pastoral 358 00:26:23.300 --> 00:26:25.400 needs of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. 359 00:26:26.800 --> 00:26:28.100 So we're 360 00:26:28.100 --> 00:26:32.300 kind of a niche seminar in the world of Seminaries but what you 361 00:26:32.300 --> 00:26:37.200 have spelled out as this change is very evident in both of our 362 00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:37.900 schools. 363 00:26:37.900 --> 00:26:41.600 I mean, we have students here who have joined the LCMS only a few 364 00:26:41.600 --> 00:26:46.000 years ago who don't have this fund of biblical knowledge that you 365 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:52.100 and I had in 1969, when we went to the seminary. So audience, this 366 00:26:52.100 --> 00:26:56.600 applies also to our two schools. Thank you, Dale. And there is a sense, you know, 367 00:26:56.600 --> 00:27:02.600 growing up in the system participating in the events 368 00:27:02.600 --> 00:27:07.300 the camps, the college's, everything else, you kind of, you 369 00:27:07.300 --> 00:27:14.500 kind of get a version of street-smarts a kind of a church smarts about 370 00:27:14.500 --> 00:27:16.300 how things operate. 371 00:27:16.300 --> 00:27:21.900 That's the connotative side of life in communities of faith. 372 00:27:26.800 --> 00:27:31.700 And the professional education was to give you all the denotative kind of 373 00:27:31.700 --> 00:27:32.000 information. 374 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:37.800 The formal information that that supported and matured this connotative 375 00:27:37.800 --> 00:27:44.300 way of of understanding. But when you come without that connotative when 376 00:27:44.300 --> 00:27:49.000 you come without the equivalent of the deep Church smarts that varies 377 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:51.800 by religious community. Every community 378 00:27:51.800 --> 00:27:52.600 got them 379 00:27:52.600 --> 00:28:01.000 but they are very different from one another. And the kind of 380 00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:05.000 theological education increasingly that's needed is a more 381 00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:11.500 formational theological education. And I would say given the crisis of 382 00:28:11.500 --> 00:28:17.200 the church and American culture, it is it is it is a formation that 383 00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:19.700 needs attend a great deal to 384 00:28:19.700 --> 00:28:24.800 the human qualities that people bring to Ministry and to the 385 00:28:24.800 --> 00:28:26.200 moral and spiritual maturity, 386 00:28:26.800 --> 00:28:32.000 they bring the ministry. Our theological education, tended to think 387 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:36.300 that we were on the road with moral and spiritual maturity, we needed 388 00:28:36.300 --> 00:28:36.900 this other stuff. 389 00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:42.100 Now, we need this other stuff, just the students need this other stuff 390 00:28:42.100 --> 00:28:46.500 just as much, but they also need help understanding and living into 391 00:28:46.500 --> 00:28:49.400 the moral and spiritual maturity that 392 00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:55.700 I think it's going to be the center of of the authority to function 393 00:28:55.700 --> 00:29:00.300 Ministerialy. In a culture that continues to become less religious 394 00:29:00.300 --> 00:29:01.100 than it once was. 395 00:29:01.100 --> 00:29:04.400 And I think you're absolutely right 396 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:07.000 just from my little corner of the kingdom of God. 397 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:08.800 Several years ago 398 00:29:08.800 --> 00:29:13.000 our faculty, did a complete revision of our Master of Divinity 399 00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:17.600 Curriculum and that revision has been applied to other 400 00:29:17.600 --> 00:29:20.000 ministerial programs here at Concordia Seminary. 401 00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:26.000 But this new curriculum has eight areas of a of wellness. 402 00:29:26.900 --> 00:29:32.300 It's not, it's not just the skills, which you call the denotative 403 00:29:32.300 --> 00:29:36.700 skills, preaching, counseling, visiting, etcetera, etcetera. 404 00:29:36.700 --> 00:29:44.500 It's it's the whole wellness of, of the person and every Tuesday I 405 00:29:44.500 --> 00:29:48.700 meet with a formation group and we just talk about, how are these 406 00:29:48.700 --> 00:29:52.400 various areas of physical health, spiritual health, emotional health, 407 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:55.500 academic health, ... How are they going in your life? 408 00:29:55.500 --> 00:29:59.600 So even in our little niche, corner of the kingdom of God, what you, 409 00:29:59.600 --> 00:30:01.000 what you say is true. 410 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:06.900 And, and I'm pleased to say that the Concordia Seminary is on top of 411 00:30:06.900 --> 00:30:16.700 this, please feel free to disagree with me. No, I think that curriculum revision 412 00:30:16.700 --> 00:30:21.300 I think that the work that Concordia Seminary is doing is clearly 413 00:30:21.300 --> 00:30:22.900 recognizing 414 00:30:23.500 --> 00:30:28.400 that the future ministerial leadership is going to be need to be 415 00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:32.200 differently equipped than the ministerial 416 00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:38.300 leadership that you and I came too early in our careers. Because of the 417 00:30:38.300 --> 00:30:41.800 role of the church in the culture because of the change of the church 418 00:30:41.800 --> 00:30:49.900 itself. Because the cultures not going to carry ministers along very 419 00:30:49.900 --> 00:30:58.200 far. What's going to carry them is going to have to be their deep understanding of, of God's presence in 420 00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:00.000 their life and call on them. 421 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:05.000 And they're deep commitment to a 422 00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:06.700 Christian way of being in the world. 423 00:31:06.700 --> 00:31:11.200 Is anybody ever has anybody ever said that you are a quotation 424 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:11.700 machine? 425 00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:13.000 As you're speaking 426 00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:16.300 I think, you know, I want to get a transcript of that into any share it 427 00:31:16.300 --> 00:31:18.700 with with various people. Dr. 428 00:31:18.700 --> 00:31:20.000 Dan the quote machine. 429 00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:25.300 If not always been quoted pleasantly. 430 00:31:25.300 --> 00:31:28.000 So if you come up with one, that would be just wonderful. 431 00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:30.200 Could 432 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.500 ask you about some specifics that that I've seen in my time, 433 00:31:33.500 --> 00:31:34.900 obviously, you and yours. 434 00:31:34.900 --> 00:31:38.600 And one is the decline in MDiv students? 435 00:31:38.600 --> 00:31:42.700 And we have that here at Concordia Seminary Fort, Wayne has had it too 436 00:31:42.700 --> 00:31:44.300 but it's not just us. 437 00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:49.600 No, the MDiv has been it's still more 438 00:31:49.600 --> 00:31:54.900 people are enrolled in the MDiv than any other one degree program in 439 00:31:54.900 --> 00:31:56.000 ATS member schools. 440 00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:03.400 But the enrollment in the MDiv has been declining for 20 years if not 441 00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:08.300 longer. And its declining, as 442 00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:12.200 it's. 443 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:18.700 We could talk about it over all the time, but there are pockets of 444 00:32:18.700 --> 00:32:20.800 increased while their pockets of decrease. 445 00:32:20.800 --> 00:32:24.700 If we look at European descent. 446 00:32:24.700 --> 00:32:29.700 If we look at white seminarians MDiv is decreasing. If we look at seminarians of 447 00:32:29.700 --> 00:32:37.500 color, the MDiv is increasing little bit. So if the MDiv continues 448 00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:41.000 to be the primary degrees for Ministry of priesthood, the Roman 449 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:50.300 Catholics, it has, there's several reasons to admit underlie the 450 00:32:50.300 --> 00:32:51.200 difference. 451 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:59.000 This decline, but in part, it is that we spent seventy years or a hundred 452 00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:01.900 years developing professional theological education. 453 00:33:01.900 --> 00:33:08.500 We also spent this time certifying, the theological education with 454 00:33:08.500 --> 00:33:13.700 post-baccalaureate so we developed a four years of baccalaureate study 455 00:33:13.700 --> 00:33:15.200 and three or four years, 456 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:23.700 with a vicarage and the LCMS MDiv study and so we we require that pattern 457 00:33:23.700 --> 00:33:30.600 required the same amount of education that that attorneys receive the 458 00:33:30.600 --> 00:33:33.800 issue is that the compensation of ministry hasn't kept up with the 459 00:33:33.800 --> 00:33:35.100 compensation in law. 460 00:33:35.100 --> 00:33:35.900 Really? 461 00:33:35.900 --> 00:33:45.400 So as as the church became less able to bear the cost and more that 462 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:49.600 cost was passed onto students in terms of tuition 463 00:33:49.600 --> 00:33:56.100 then then you start asking question, how long can I stay? 464 00:33:56.100 --> 00:33:59.500 How many years do I stay in in theological education? 465 00:33:59.500 --> 00:34:06.600 And as congregations have become less able to support a full-time 466 00:34:06.600 --> 00:34:11.600 Pastor or are just on the margin to be able to support a full-time 467 00:34:11.600 --> 00:34:14.800 Pastor, the minimum salary, then you have to ask the question. 468 00:34:15.200 --> 00:34:22.500 What's the right amount of education for the kind of so-so part of it 469 00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:29.700 is it is the decline of of the religious systems that provided 470 00:34:29.700 --> 00:34:36.500 compensation and support in a parallel of life and Ministry to the 471 00:34:36.500 --> 00:34:46.300 time and money required to prepare for Ministry. It also is that people 472 00:34:46.300 --> 00:34:49.800 are making the decision to come and finding themselves called to 473 00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:52.000 ministry later in life. 474 00:34:53.100 --> 00:34:57.100 And so if they don't have a Baccalaureate degree or if they have a, 475 00:34:57.100 --> 00:35:02.600 it's more and more difficult to stop at 45 and take four years out of 476 00:35:02.600 --> 00:35:09.000 your life, to do a traditional MDiv with a vicarage year, by you 477 00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:11.300 trying to help your own kids, get through college. 478 00:35:11.300 --> 00:35:18.000 If it just has changed from as the population of Seminary students has 479 00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:25.100 gotten older, the pressure becomes greater on the, how long should we 480 00:35:25.100 --> 00:35:27.900 extend a theological education? 481 00:35:29.200 --> 00:35:31.700 But the tension, Dale, is that 482 00:35:33.400 --> 00:35:36.500 Pastors need more education now than they ever have. 483 00:35:36.500 --> 00:35:42.700 The job is harder, the task is more complex there that there's 484 00:35:42.700 --> 00:35:46.400 complexity within congregations as well as send the culture about 485 00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:52.600 religion, but there is less time and money to get an indefinite amount 486 00:35:52.600 --> 00:35:53.600 of education. If I may 487 00:35:53.600 --> 00:36:00.900 interject two things. One is as I look to the future 488 00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:05.100 parochialy of Concordia Seminary in St. 489 00:36:05.100 --> 00:36:10.100 Louis continuing education in our graduate offerings are more 490 00:36:10.100 --> 00:36:11.100 important than ever. 491 00:36:11.100 --> 00:36:17.000 For just, the reason you said, we graduate a pastor who is ready to 492 00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:19.000 take his first call. 493 00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:24.500 But now with our new curriculum, focus on formation, lifelong learning 494 00:36:24.500 --> 00:36:25.200 is a big emphasis. 495 00:36:25.200 --> 00:36:30.800 So I see the Seminary as as as a provider of theological and 496 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:36.200 ministerial resource throughout a graduate's lifetime. 497 00:36:36.200 --> 00:36:38.300 In fact, it dawned on me a few years ago. 498 00:36:38.300 --> 00:36:44.100 Concordia Seminary is the largest institution in the Lutheran 499 00:36:44.100 --> 00:36:49.100 Church-missouri Synod, that is dedicated solely to the word of God for 500 00:36:49.100 --> 00:36:50.000 the life of the church. 501 00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:53.500 We're not, we're not that we're not the biggest institution, 502 00:36:53.500 --> 00:36:56.100 budget-wise, but we are solely dedicated to that. 503 00:36:56.100 --> 00:36:58.400 So continuing education, 504 00:36:58.400 --> 00:36:58.800 yeah. 505 00:36:59.300 --> 00:37:02.200 I'm experiencing the need for that. 506 00:37:02.200 --> 00:37:07.600 The other thing that I'd like you to reflect on is over the years of 507 00:37:07.600 --> 00:37:10.200 the MDiv has been in decline. Now 508 00:37:10.200 --> 00:37:14.200 I'm glad to say we have turned that around and we had increases last 509 00:37:14.200 --> 00:37:17.100 year and we look for an increase in next year in our MDiv 510 00:37:17.100 --> 00:37:17.700 enrollment. 511 00:37:17.700 --> 00:37:21.800 But we have also created at the request of the Lutheran 512 00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:24.200 Church-Missouri Synod other programs. 513 00:37:24.200 --> 00:37:29.100 We have the Center for Hispanic Studies, The Ethnic Immigrant Institute 514 00:37:29.100 --> 00:37:29.300 of Theology, 515 00:37:29.300 --> 00:37:34.400 the Specific Ministry Pastor program, those are non residential 516 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:39.900 programs that that we have created in response to the mandates by the 517 00:37:39.900 --> 00:37:41.100 Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. 518 00:37:41.100 --> 00:37:47.900 So is it true that other routes into ministry are increasing even as 519 00:37:47.900 --> 00:37:50.900 the MDiv is still for us 520 00:37:50.900 --> 00:37:52.300 at least the preferred route? 521 00:37:52.300 --> 00:37:53.400 Could you talk about? 522 00:37:54.300 --> 00:38:00.000 I think that's the case in most Protestant denominations that they 523 00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:06.000 have created, if, if they, if they required, the MDiv they have 524 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:07.400 created and 525 00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:09.900 cherish the MDiv 526 00:38:09.900 --> 00:38:16.000 but they've created alternative routes for authorized Ministry of one 527 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:16.900 form or the other. 528 00:38:16.900 --> 00:38:21.000 And they're doing that because of the needs of people in the needs of 529 00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:25.600 congregation and where there is religious energy. Communities of color 530 00:38:25.600 --> 00:38:30.800 have more religious energy in this culture right now the most white communities. 531 00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:39.700 And there they need service and they have been some Churches need 532 00:38:39.700 --> 00:38:44.800 to respond and institutions need to respond to those particular needs, 533 00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:47.100 maybe a different pattern of education. 534 00:38:47.100 --> 00:38:51.600 Not a different level of education is still learning the same things 535 00:38:51.600 --> 00:38:54.200 but in different educational packages. 536 00:38:54.300 --> 00:39:01.300 I think that it's it's it's important to realize that the other thing 537 00:39:01.300 --> 00:39:07.300 that you mentioned that theological education can't be a one-and-done 538 00:39:07.300 --> 00:39:09.500 kind of activity anymore. 539 00:39:09.500 --> 00:39:13.000 Just too much is changing over time. 540 00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:18.100 And what prepared you to begin in Ministry is not going to prepare 541 00:39:18.100 --> 00:39:27.200 you for 10 years into Ministry or 20 years into Ministry, some of it will. The 542 00:39:27.200 --> 00:39:31.100 word is still the word but how the word is conveyed and how, how, the church does it work 543 00:39:31.100 --> 00:39:35.190 and what's the church's voice is in a culture, as that culture 544 00:39:35.190 --> 00:39:36.190 continues to change 545 00:39:36.190 --> 00:39:41.600 is it requires ongoing thought and reflection over time 546 00:39:41.600 --> 00:39:43.800 and that is formation of learning. 547 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:49.100 And I mentioned that the profession of the title of the book was about 548 00:39:49.100 --> 00:39:53.900 beyond professional education, but it is also about beyond just a 549 00:39:54.300 --> 00:39:59.200 profession of faith. I'm talking about out of formational pattern but 550 00:39:59.200 --> 00:40:03.900 it's not just that your professor faith 551 00:40:03.900 --> 00:40:07.200 there is more to it than just professing your faith. 552 00:40:07.200 --> 00:40:12.400 So profession takes on both a kind of religious and an educational 553 00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:18.000 definition and a religious definition. And it's that beyond profession 554 00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:22.900 that calls for ongoing learning and engagement and 555 00:40:22.900 --> 00:40:25.100 growing in the life of faith, 556 00:40:25.100 --> 00:40:30.100 over time. I mentioned in the first segment that acquaintance of yours 557 00:40:30.100 --> 00:40:31.600 and a colleague of mine is Dr. 558 00:40:31.600 --> 00:40:32.200 Mark Seifrid 559 00:40:32.200 --> 00:40:37.000 and yesterday in the class that we are team teaching, he made the 560 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:37.400 point 561 00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:42.700 that a Seminary, is a safe place for scholars on behalf of the church 562 00:40:42.700 --> 00:40:44.600 to explore how the word of God 563 00:40:44.600 --> 00:40:49.500 and in our context, the Lutheran Confessions apply to new issues that 564 00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:53.800 are rising in society today. And Mark said that 565 00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:54.200 yeah the 566 00:40:54.300 --> 00:40:59.800 Seminary has to be that safe place, where accountable, no question 567 00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:04.100 about that, where these kind of discussions that you described 568 00:41:04.100 --> 00:41:09.700 can be fostered and generated for the for the continued education of 569 00:41:09.700 --> 00:41:10.700 of the entire church. 570 00:41:10.700 --> 00:41:16.200 Now, I have a have a question and then then we'll we'll wrap today's 571 00:41:16.200 --> 00:41:17.100 program up. 572 00:41:19.100 --> 00:41:23.400 At Concordia, Seminary and also Concordia Theological Seminary, we provide 573 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:27.300 pastors and also Deaconess has to the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, 574 00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:32.000 that's all. Our graduate offerings and are continuing education 575 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:36.500 offerings are to anyone who is interested in in our brand of 576 00:41:36.500 --> 00:41:37.400 education. 577 00:41:38.600 --> 00:41:41.800 Is that unusual to have a seminary 578 00:41:41.800 --> 00:41:45.600 so tightly wed to one denomination. 579 00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:53.500 It is unusual for a Protestant seminary. Most Protestant seminaries, 580 00:41:53.500 --> 00:42:00.100 some are pretty tightly with probably done any more tightly of then 581 00:42:00.100 --> 00:42:09.500 the two seminaries related to the LCMS. Most have become more 582 00:42:09.500 --> 00:42:10.100 inclusive with there 583 00:42:10.100 --> 00:42:14.800 MDiv with students from a variety of denominational families. 584 00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:21.100 And their kind of educate whoever is around who wants to come and who 585 00:42:21.100 --> 00:42:28.400 is qualified for the education. The credit you had mentioned your ATS 586 00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:30.600 meeting sitting with the Roman Catholics. 587 00:42:30.600 --> 00:42:36.800 In that sense, the Roman Catholics are most like the experience of the 588 00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:41.900 two LCMS in that they really there MDiv is really for Roman Catholic, 589 00:42:41.900 --> 00:42:43.100 ministerial priesthood. 590 00:42:43.100 --> 00:42:44.200 It's not for anyone else. 591 00:42:44.200 --> 00:42:46.500 They have broadened, their educational 592 00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:47.700 programs 593 00:42:47.700 --> 00:42:53.500 but for the most part, they're there MDiv is only for Roman Catholic 594 00:42:53.500 --> 00:42:58.100 candidates for the ministerial priesthood, as your MDiv and Deaconess 595 00:42:58.100 --> 00:43:03.400 program are for persons serving the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. I 596 00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:06.200 might put in my comment that there are some seminaries 597 00:43:06.200 --> 00:43:12.900 I know that serve over 100 denominations. Yeah. When you're in our situation and 598 00:43:12.900 --> 00:43:21.200 tightly connected to the denomination that creates some rubs but 599 00:43:21.200 --> 00:43:27.000 also and and and and, and you can contradict me our two seminaries are 600 00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:32.700 very strong, including financially. And the reason for that blessing is 601 00:43:32.700 --> 00:43:37.400 because of our tight connection with our our market, the LCMS. 602 00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:38.800 So yeah 603 00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:44.500 it's not there are days when we say all the denomination 604 00:43:44.500 --> 00:43:45.500 wants this at or whatever. 605 00:43:45.500 --> 00:43:46.000 Yeah. 606 00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:46.900 Well, 607 00:43:47.100 --> 00:43:50.600 we belong to the denomination, but both of our seminaries are strong 608 00:43:50.600 --> 00:43:53.200 because of that type. 609 00:43:53.200 --> 00:43:57.300 They are very strong seminaries in the context of of of American 610 00:43:57.300 --> 00:44:03.300 theological education, Dale, both of them financially, in terms of 611 00:44:03.300 --> 00:44:06.200 facilities, in terms of educational program, 612 00:44:06.200 --> 00:44:10.700 in terms of enrollment. It's hard to look at a part of these two 613 00:44:10.700 --> 00:44:14.200 schools and not see significant patterns of strength. 614 00:44:14.200 --> 00:44:21.900 They have they have educational reach that they've brought their 615 00:44:21.900 --> 00:44:26.400 graduate and their degree program efforts 616 00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:28.500 and the kind of programming talked about. 617 00:44:28.500 --> 00:44:36.600 And most seminaries are trying to do this, you know, your deep connection with the 618 00:44:36.600 --> 00:44:41.100 Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, families have fights, and we get in 619 00:44:41.100 --> 00:44:42.500 fights because you're part of the family. 620 00:44:43.500 --> 00:44:49.700 And a family, member's frustrate each other more than strangers often do. 621 00:44:49.700 --> 00:44:52.900 But that's part of being in a family 622 00:44:52.900 --> 00:44:58.200 in a denominational, family system as these two seminaries are. 623 00:44:58.200 --> 00:45:03.300 I think the church is well, served by these schools, but I also think 624 00:45:03.300 --> 00:45:10.200 that original sin is equally distributed between Church bodies and seminaries both of them are 625 00:45:10.200 --> 00:45:12.600 capable of becoming self-absorbed. 626 00:45:12.600 --> 00:45:20.400 Both of them are coming, are capable of of looking, of failing to see what they 627 00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:22.300 should be able to do. 628 00:45:22.300 --> 00:45:24.300 The problem is the church sometimes 629 00:45:24.300 --> 00:45:29.200 takes some of its its failures and project them onto the on the 630 00:45:29.200 --> 00:45:37.000 seminary and but that's a part of a family system, that's just the 631 00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:37.800 way things work.. 632 00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:41.500 And I know that alternative. Visa versa sometimes we project our feelings on the Church. 633 00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:50.100 That's exactly right and so you live with that tension and you 634 00:45:50.100 --> 00:45:51.300 pray with that tension. 635 00:45:51.300 --> 00:46:01.000 And if it's been that way since Acts 15. There have been tensions in among 636 00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:06.100 communities of deeply, connected believers. As a wrap-up question, 637 00:46:06.100 --> 00:46:11.400 let me ask you, why are you hopeful for the future of theological 638 00:46:11.400 --> 00:46:13.300 education in the United States? 639 00:46:13.300 --> 00:46:17.000 Can you think of anything better than the gospel of our Lord? 640 00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:22.500 Can you think of anything better for a way, for people to form their 641 00:46:22.500 --> 00:46:23.100 lives 642 00:46:23.100 --> 00:46:26.300 then by the way of Jesus? 643 00:46:26.300 --> 00:46:31.300 Can you think of anything that would do more for human care and human fruition? 644 00:46:31.300 --> 00:46:37.600 My hope is it is, in the sense of the goodness of the Gospel, the 645 00:46:37.600 --> 00:46:43.000 presence of the spirit, the guidance that the church has had through 646 00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:43.300 all 647 00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:48.000 kind of cultural conditions. And through all of those centuries of its 648 00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:53.800 existence, it's found ways to educate its leaders and its leaders have 649 00:46:53.800 --> 00:46:55.300 always needed some pattern of education. 650 00:46:55.300 --> 00:47:02.800 So I'm hopeful that these long structures and efforts and that this 651 00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:08.000 goodness of the Gospel will prevail in in this culture in this time 652 00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:10.500 and in the work of these schools. 653 00:47:10.500 --> 00:47:11.800 Thanks so much 654 00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:17.000 Dan. Once again, you're an encourager, and you also inform us of where 655 00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:19.900 we are at in our in our mission to the world. 656 00:47:19.900 --> 00:47:23.000 Thanks for having me. 657 00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:24.300 Thank you, Dr. 658 00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:28.400 Aleshire and thanks to you for joining us for Word and Work. 659 00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:32.800 My prayer is that the intersection of Word and Work will be very busy, 660 00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:35.500 and a blessing on your corner.