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Hello, I'm Kevin Golden, Dean of Theological Research and Publication at Concordia Seminary

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in St. Louis.

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Welcome to Concordia Theology.

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It's our blessing today to spend some time talking with Dr. Jim Voelz about the latest

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book that he's published that's entitled Principles of Biblical Interpretation for

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Everyone.

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Now, I'm excited for this book for a lot of reasons.

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One of those is because it's published by our own Concordia Seminary Press, so it's

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a great issue coming forth from us, kind of in two ways.

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One from our press, but also from one of our faculty members.

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So Jim, congratulations on yet another book.

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Well, thank you.

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Thank you.

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This is great.

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It's known for having already written a book on the topic of hermeneutics, Principles of

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Biblical Interpretation that we still use here at the seminary as a textbook.

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That's entitled What Does This Mean?

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But this is Principles of Biblical Interpretation for Everyone.

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Tell me, what do you mean by everyone?

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Who is this written for?

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Well, thank you very much.

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And by the way, thank you for your leadership in getting something like this published.

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I really appreciate that.

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Well, this is the book, Principles of Biblical Interpretation for Everyone.

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And for everyone is intended to convey that you don't need Greek and Hebrew to be able

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to get these principles.

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So in other words, if you're using the ESV or another translation, this book works with

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the supposition that you're going to access the Bible through a translation.

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Now, that doesn't mean that Greek and Hebrew don't make their appearance, but it's never

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in such a way that it's absolutely necessary for you.

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All right.

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And that's a difference between what does this mean, where the Greek and Hebrew is just

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integrated throughout the book.

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And so a working knowledge of both of those is rather critical to be able to navigate

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that book well.

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So this one, if you don't have Greek and Hebrew, you're going to be able to navigate it.

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But also having read through the bulk of this myself, even for our clergy and such who have

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a background in Greek and Hebrew, or even laity who have background in Greek and Hebrew,

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this is still going to be a great resource for them.

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Yes.

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And that's one of the reasons why Greek and Hebrew kind of makes its appearance in footnotes

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and things like that.

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So if you do know the original languages, hey, it's a frosting on the cake for you,

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but it's not absolutely necessary for you to get it.

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I've been concerned for some time that even our students and even some profs like to characterize

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what does this mean as what the heck does this mean?

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All right.

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Because it's pretty complex.

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It is.

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You know, you know that it's pretty complex.

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It gets into a lot of semantic theory and everything like this.

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And as you say, the Greek and the Hebrew is absolutely critical to the kind of arguments

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that I'm doing.

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So I thought, now there's got to be a place for explaining principles of interpretation

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where you don't need all of that.

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But it's going to be accessible for principally, let me say, the informed layperson who's really

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wanting to delve into the Bible.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So I like to characterize it like this.

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This book is for the man, the woman who comes to Bible class with a Bible, pad of paper,

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a pencil, and is really wanting to learn, not for the person who comes in with a donut

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and says, hey, is there a Bible somewhere in this class?

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I'm not aiming at that.

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I'm aiming at the kind of person who really wants to delve in.

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Now, there are a lot of features to this book that I think it's worthwhile to talk about.

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Yes.

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All right.

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Number one is it's sort of divided into two parts.

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The first part is all of the main presentation.

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Then there's a section at the end of the book, about the last third, called deeper dives.

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And in that section, if you're really interested in knowing more, there'll be a deeper dive

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back there.

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It's kind of like the deeper dives are sort of giant footnotes, giant informative footnotes.

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But I would like the people watching this to understand that the deeper dives are not

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necessary for you to do to get the basic argument.

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So that was a very interesting point, by the way, in writing the book.

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What do you put back in the deeper dive and what do you have in the basic presentation?

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So I think that's a positive feature.

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Here's the second thing.

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This book actually, Principles of Biblical Interpretation for Everyone, actually has

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some material in here that, what does this mean, doesn't have.

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And I'm really happy I was able to put it in.

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One, there's a discussion of canon.

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So the canon, the official books of the Old Testament and the New Testament.

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Secondly, and this wouldn't have been exactly appropriate for what does this mean, but it's

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tremendously appropriate here.

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I spend a lot of time interacting specifically with English translations.

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So I will be talking about what is the NIV, the King James, the ESV, Good News for Modern

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Man, even Eugene Peterson's The Message.

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So when I'm doing things, I will say, well, this translation is doing this and this translation

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is doing that.

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I think lay people are going to find this extremely helpful.

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And then there is an entire discussion on English translations and what you might look

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for because, well, Kevin, you know this from your work at Village Lutheran.

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People are always asking you, well, what's the best translation, Pastor?

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Okay.

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So I go through this big description that you actually have to consider at least three

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factors with a translation.

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Number one, what was the method that the translators used?

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Did they try to reflect kind of woodenly, literalistically the underlying Greek or Hebrew?

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Or did they do sometimes called formal equivalence?

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Or did they do dynamic equivalence where they're trying to make it kind of easier to understand?

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Then you have the second question is what about language level or register?

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How formal is the translation?

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Is it really formal?

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Is it sort of semi-formal?

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Is it very informal like Good News for Modern Man?

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We find out, for example, that the New International Version, the NIV, is extremely, let me call

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it comfortable for people in terms of language level.

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Then the third thing, and a lot of people don't know about this, you have to decide

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and you as a pastor would have to decide if you're getting Bibles for your church.

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Do we want the translation to be within the language tradition of the King James or do

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we want it different?

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Okay, so do you want to make it sound kind of like the King James without the these and

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thes and taking out odd phrases like super fluidy of naughtiness and stuff like that?

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Do you basically want it to sound like that or do you want it to do something else completely

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so that it breaks out of that mold and is just reading more like a letter or like a

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history or something like this?

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I want to tell everybody who's watching here, especially any pastors that there might be,

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this is an extremely critical decision that you have to make because while something like

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the NIV is very comfortable to use, it's outside the language tradition of the King James.

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The ESV is inside the language tradition.

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And so if you're outside, some of the stuff may be more immediately understandable, but

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if you're inside, there's a greater connection to the older generations.

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This is kind of important.

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So when students ask me, well, what's the best translation?

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Well, there are accuracy issues for sure.

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Then there is translation method, there is the register, there is whether it's in the

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King James, there's all this stuff.

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I think lay people are going to really enjoy this.

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And I think this gets back to that point, it's written for everyone.

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So if you have been somebody using the NIV for years, the ESV for years, the King James,

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they're certainly members of our congregations that just still love the King James, this

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is going to be a benefit for you no matter what.

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Maybe one more thing I would just point out since it's for everyone, it's interesting

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if you look on the backside, we have two endorsements on the backside of the book.

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One of them is from a Reverend doctor, somebody with a PhD who therefore knows all the technicalities

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and the insights very well versed.

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The second one is written by a lay person, but specifically a young lady who was, I think,

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when she was introduced to this, what, 14, 15?

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14, 15 years old.

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And here she is recognizing how she herself has benefited from it.

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Yes.

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Sophia He.

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And also, again, that kind of member who comes to church with her Bible, notepad, pencil,

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or she's young enough, maybe she doesn't have notepad and pencil, she's got her iPad or

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something to take her notes on or something, but she's ready to go.

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See, exactly.

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Now let me turn the focus just a little bit different here.

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I have a feeling that this book is going to be extremely helpful on the mission field.

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And I've already been told that by Dr. Steven Schumacher, who works with the ILC, the International

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Lutheran Council, and is a coordinator of seminary efforts in Africa.

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He said, we're always looking for hermeneutics.

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What does this mean?

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A little complicated, a little technical, but then aside from that, we don't have anything

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else that's organized.

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Guys are just getting stuff from all over the place.

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He took a look at PDFs of the early version of this and thought that this would be extremely

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helpful for Ghana, Tanzania, stuff like that.

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And I am hoping that this will allow access to important biblical principles of interpretation,

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even outside of the United States.

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Excellent.

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Let's get into a little bit more about those principles.

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The book can kind of be divided into two parts in the sense of, first of all, dealing with

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Holy Scripture as a human document.

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So tell us about what does that mean and why is that important to understand and read Scripture

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as a human document?

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Well, let's contrast it to reading it as the inspired Word of God.

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Which it is.

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Which it is as a divine document.

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Well, I sort of broached this very early on and I use as an example, and this is on page

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12 of the book, you can see both sides of this in St. Paul.

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So St. Paul in Galatians 6-11 says, see with what large letters I have written to you with

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my own hand.

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I mean, this is a thoroughly human document.

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This is not golden plates dropping out of the sky.

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This is a guy working with pen and ink.

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But Paul also says in 2 Corinthians 13, if I come to you again, I will not spare you

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since you seek proof of Christ speaking in me.

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Well now there's a whole different side of this.

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This is not Diodorus of Sicily writing his history.

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This is not Caesar's Gallic Wars.

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This is God speaking in Paul as his apostolic representative.

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So the first half of the book looks at human side things, like how language is used.

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How do we interpret it?

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How do we interpret a letter of Paul just as a letter of Paul?

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A specific genre of literature.

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That takes us through the first eight chapters.

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Then for the next chapters, the second half of the book, we look at scripture as specifically

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the word of God and as a special document.

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So now we talk about the canon of scripture.

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Well, which books are in it?

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That's not a question you raise about Caesar's Gallic Wars.

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You know, this is about the Bible, right?

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We also have a discussion, this is where the second half of the book, where there'll be

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a discussion about inspiration, inerrancy, sufficiency, clarity of scripture, things

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like that.

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And I will also talk about there, I do also talk in chapter 10 about major basic themes

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that are only in scripture, how God's brought the future ahead of time in Christ into our

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world.

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No other book talks about stuff like that.

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You know, so things that are very specific to the Bible.

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But let me say to the people listening to this interview, and this is really important.

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I just got done with a class with SMP pastors, and I made this very clear to them.

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Both half of the books are really necessary.

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See, human side, divine side.

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It's not like when you get to the divine side, that's sort of what you really need to know,

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you know, and all you need is to have some of the spirit or something.

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Oh, no, no, no, you've got to know about how language works.

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You've got to know about how literature works and so on.

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How does an author seek to communicate his ideas and all that kind of stuff.

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So it's kind of complex in that sense.

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And as you've made the case elsewhere, including in What Does This Mean, that this twofold

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nature of Holy Scripture as a human document, a divine document, is really just mirroring

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our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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The two natures in Christ, fully human, fully divine.

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And in the history of the church, we of course see time and time again, often where the church

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gets off the rails or a heretic gets off the rails is when they lose hold of one of those

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two items, that they push the divinity of Christ to the point that loses humanity, which

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is humanity to the point that loses divinity.

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Same thing can happen with Holy Scripture.

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If you push either too far, you've got to hold them both together.

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So you could push it too far on the human side and never see any divine side of this

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at all.

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But you could push the divine side and think, well, I don't really have to learn how exactly

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language works.

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I don't have to learn how narrative works or something like that.

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I can just have the spirit and interpret.

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That's not right either.

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It's not right either.

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So I'm glad you brought that up.

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That's very important.

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And by the way, I use that same analysis of the person of Christ in this book like I did

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in What Does This Mean.

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And this is also rather critical, which is why, hey, you can read the Gospel According

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to Saint Mark, something you're rather familiar with.

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And notice the uniqueness of how he is presenting the life and ministry of Christ in comparison

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to Matthew or Luke or even more so with John.

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Very distinct and different.

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And yet, so that's, if you will, the human side.

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They're different because they write differently, but also because Scripture is a divine document.

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This is why you can take something as a first century Gospel text like that and then hold

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it together with something from, let's say, an eighth century BC prophet, a different

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timeframe, a different genre of literature, a different author, obvious human author,

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obviously.

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And yet they have the same divine author.

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And so the two can still be interpreted together.

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Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Let me also say this.

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One of my sainted teachers, Martin Franzmann, very famous guy in the Lutheran Church, Missouri

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Synod, used to say, boy, this struck me so hard when I was in class.

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He used to say, the exegete, the biblical interpreter, must never say, of course.

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But it is to say, stuff isn't so obvious that it sort of leaps off the page at you like

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that.

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Yeah.

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No, no.

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You're doing work.

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You're making decisions all the time.

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Let me just say to the people watching this interview, you have to make a decision.

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When you're using language, are you trying to interpret by context or are you thinking

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that there's always some real meaning of a word?

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The decision you make on that is going to determine how you handle text.

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What are you doing when you come to a parable?

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Are you thinking that you should sort of demetaphorize every individual point of a parable?

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Or are you thinking you shouldn't do any and you're just looking for some vague overall

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point?

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These are the kind of mathematical questions that are not in the Bible.

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The Bible doesn't tell you how to do one or the other of these things.

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These are discussions that have to be had before you can be an effective interpreter.

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I'm really looking forward to people confronting these.

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Yeah.

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If you were going to have your readers, after reading this book, walk away with one thing.

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Now it's hard to walk away with just one thing, but what would be the number one thing

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you'd want to make sure they did walk away from this book with?

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Maybe the point that you were just making about the human and divine nature.

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I think that might be the important thing is to realize there are basic linguistic principles,

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basic literary principles that you want to be following.

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And at the same time, this isn't quote just another book.

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There are other features to it.

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The story that the holy scriptures tell about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ being incarnate

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in this world and actually bringing into our time and place the gifts that will be

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fully manifested at the end of time, the renewal of creation when he heals people, raises people

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from the dead and so on.

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Well, there's no other book that talks about stuff like this.

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It's really so important for us to see the particular viewpoint of each of the gospel

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writers and then this wonderful divine story that's not offered anywhere else.

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So I thank you for kind of making that point as part of our question and answer here because

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that really is key.

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And dare we say this, which I know you teach yourself, that for anybody to rightly understand

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holy scripture, they got to get what you just said, that it's all about Christ.

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So the Christo centricity of scripture and what he has done in his life and ministry,

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how he's brought into our time foretaste of what is going to be hours in full at his return.

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And so they should, your readers shouldn't be surprised that when they are talking with

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their neighbor, their family member, their coworker, who has a very different take on

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scripture because they don't confess Christ.

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They don't have faith in Christ.

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They shouldn't be surprised that they have a different take on it because they're kind

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of missing the very central point.

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Without Christ, it all falls apart.

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Right.

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And now just this point you're on right now, that is addressed specifically in chapter

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10.

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This is the second half of the book where we're talking about the unique features because

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it's a unique story, right?

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Nobody else, just the way you put it, was really, really well expressed.

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He's bringing into our time ahead of time the blessings that are ours in full at the

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end of time.

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Nobody says that about Caesar.

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Nobody says that about Ashurbanipal or something like that.

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So there are things being claimed in the scriptures that are so wonderful and so different that

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if you don't come away with that, you've sort of missed the whole point.

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And yet it's all clothed in human form.

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Words have the meanings that they have because they were written in the first century or

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because they were written in the seventh century.

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The meaning of the word here may not be what it was for Homer in the eighth century B.C.

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So there's all this, the human side is the clothing for the divine side of this.

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And I hope people are going to be able to see that.

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Well, and I am sure they will.

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And I'm very excited to see this be a blessing to the church, be a blessing to the seminary

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as we're using it in some of our courses already and see it be a blessing on the mission

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field as well as pastors throughout the world, laity throughout the world are being taught

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from it.

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So congratulations on the latest in the book.

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Thank you very much.

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Blessed to have you with us today and blessed to have you with us as well.

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Encourage you to take opportunity to learn principles of biblical interpretation for

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everyone.

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Until next time, thank you for being with us on Concordia Theology.

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Thank you.