WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:16.500 Hi, I'm Erik Herrmann. 2 00:00:16.500 --> 00:00:17.900 Welcome to Concordia 3 00:00:17.900 --> 00:00:18.900 Theology 4 00:00:18.900 --> 00:00:20.200 Org. Today 5 00:00:20.200 --> 00:00:24.100 we're looking at one of our more recent publications that have come 6 00:00:24.100 --> 00:00:27.300 out by author and professor of Practical Theology 7 00:00:27.300 --> 00:00:28.700 Dr. 8 00:00:28.700 --> 00:00:30.100 Rick Marrs. Rick 9 00:00:30.100 --> 00:00:30.900 Thank you for being here. 10 00:00:30.900 --> 00:00:35.100 Thank you for having me. So the book that has come out just recently that 11 00:00:35.100 --> 00:00:38.700 you have been working on it for the last several years is entitled 12 00:00:38.700 --> 00:00:43.300 "Making Christian Counseling more Christ-centered" and this is a book 13 00:00:43.300 --> 00:00:45.400 with just came out what when last few months. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, 14 00:00:45.400 --> 00:00:47.300 September 2019. Excellent, 15 00:00:47.300 --> 00:00:52.000 so it's it's published by Westbow Press and it's a book 16 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:52.400 of course. 17 00:00:52.400 --> 00:00:57.000 There's there's quite a few books on Christian Counseling and you've 18 00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:00.000 been involved in the Christian Counseling circles for quite some time, 19 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:04.000 right? 35 years, probably. So before you became a professor at the seminary 20 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:06.900 you also taught Christian counseling or psychology. Psychology 21 00:01:06.900 --> 00:01:09.400 and counseling courses at Concordia Chicago and St. 22 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:10.400 John's College in Winfield, Kansas. 23 00:01:10.900 --> 00:01:11.700 Okay very good. 24 00:01:11.700 --> 00:01:15.500 So this is sort of a apex of your career and bringing a lot of thought 25 00:01:15.500 --> 00:01:16.000 into it. Yeah, yeah. 26 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:22.300 So tell me a little bit about why you wanted to write a book on 27 00:01:22.300 --> 00:01:26.000 Christian Counseling and what kind of need you thought this niche kinda of filled? 28 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:27.300 Thank you. 29 00:01:27.300 --> 00:01:31.100 It has been one where for decades 30 00:01:31.100 --> 00:01:34.000 I have felt like a bit of a lonely Lutheran in the Christian 31 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:39.700 Counseling circles that I tend to run in. Very few Lutheran's attend 32 00:01:39.700 --> 00:01:43.900 AACC, American Association of Christian Counseling, is a huge 33 00:01:43.900 --> 00:01:48.200 Professional Organization over 50.000 member so actually rival some of 34 00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:53.200 the secular counseling organizations in size, but very few of its 35 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:54.400 members are Lutheran. 36 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:56.100 They're mostly Baptist, evangelicals. 37 00:01:56.100 --> 00:02:00.000 And so the people that I have been interacting with especially before 38 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:03.600 I became a Lutheran Pastor cuz I didn't become a pastor until my early 39 00:02:03.600 --> 00:02:04.300 forties. 40 00:02:04.300 --> 00:02:09.000 I was teaching at the college level and had a PhD before I came here 41 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:10.699 as a student and then 42 00:02:10.900 --> 00:02:15.800 I've got called back here to The Faculty six years after I'd had left 43 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:17.600 to teach pastoral counseling. 44 00:02:17.600 --> 00:02:20.800 But yeah for years in the Christian Counseling realm 45 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:28.800 I've been talking with well-meaning Baptists and evangelicals and when 46 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:33.100 they talk about Christian Counseling I realized it too often is 47 00:02:33.100 --> 00:02:34.200 something like oh good, 48 00:02:34.200 --> 00:02:35.500 You're a Christian. 49 00:02:35.500 --> 00:02:39.400 Now, if you follow these six steps, you'll be a less depressed less 50 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:44.700 anxious Christian. And they're doing quality Christian Counseling in 51 00:02:44.700 --> 00:02:47.900 one sense, but they don't even realize that they're doing Law or 52 00:02:47.900 --> 00:02:52.000 soft Law when they do that. And so they often don't know how to bring 53 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:56.100 the Gospel of Christ in when there is a vertical question. 54 00:02:56.100 --> 00:02:59.300 You know like does Jesus really love me? 55 00:02:59.300 --> 00:03:02.900 Am I one of the chosen or all those sorts of questions that a lot 56 00:03:02.900 --> 00:03:06.000 of people are going for Christian counseling are actually asking at 57 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:10.400 some sort of heart level. And you know, we as Lutheran's 58 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:14.100 have Luther Soul Care theology, which he just 59 00:03:15.200 --> 00:03:18.000 Is christ-centered all over the place. You know two kinds of 60 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:22.000 righteousness, proper distinction of Law and Gospel, old Adam, new Adam 61 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:26.200 all those emphasize emphasize that you and I take for granted. Our 62 00:03:26.200 --> 00:03:30.000 Baptist friends our Evangelical friends don't know at least not in the 63 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:35.200 Christian Counseling worlds that I run in and we haven't taught it to 64 00:03:35.200 --> 00:03:36.000 them very effectively. 65 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:40.300 So I'm hoping the first half of this book will teach you to them and 66 00:03:40.300 --> 00:03:44.300 the second half than will at least give them techniques so they will oh; 67 00:03:44.300 --> 00:03:48.800 I never thought about doing Christian Counseling quite that way before. 68 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:49.600 Yeah, In fact 69 00:03:49.600 --> 00:03:54.200 I'm obviously familiar with a lot of those distinctions that you 70 00:03:54.200 --> 00:03:57.600 cited there. When you said right at the beginning about 71 00:03:57.600 --> 00:04:02.600 those things being Law. From a Lutheran perspective this is a distinction of law and Gospel. What you're 72 00:04:02.600 --> 00:04:08.000 really aiming at is a Christ-centered something that directs people 73 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:13.700 to Christ rather than direct them to their own efforts their own their 74 00:04:13.700 --> 00:04:14.900 own efforts of trying to make themselves feel 75 00:04:15.100 --> 00:04:18.300 better or work through things that there's a reliance on Christ. 76 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:19.399 So that's at least in part 77 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:23.300 what you mean by making Christian Counseling Christ-centered. Can you talk a 78 00:04:23.300 --> 00:04:25.400 little bit about the definition of Christ-centered because I think 79 00:04:25.400 --> 00:04:29.900 Christians like you said if I believe in Jesus and you believe in 80 00:04:29.900 --> 00:04:33.300 Jesus and this is by definition de facto a Christ-centered counseling session. And even 81 00:04:37.200 --> 00:04:40.500 Evangelicals tend to put a lot emphasis on their faith in Christ. 82 00:04:40.500 --> 00:04:44.400 And don't even realize that they're putting an emphasis on their faith 83 00:04:44.400 --> 00:04:45.800 in Christ. 84 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:48.000 And so they often come to counselors going 85 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:52.900 if I just had more faith, if I just prayed more my friends and my pastor 86 00:04:52.900 --> 00:04:57.400 even told me if I just had more faith and I prayed more often than my 87 00:04:57.400 --> 00:05:01.000 depression would go away or my anxiety disorder would go away. 88 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:04.600 So it's my fault that I don't have enough faith to do those were some 89 00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:09.100 things. And they don't realize, I mean we realize, that Walther actually told us 90 00:05:09.100 --> 00:05:13.000 proper distinction between Law and Gospel. Try not to put the emphasis 91 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:17.100 on their own prayers and wrestling with God but on who they're Savior 92 00:05:17.100 --> 00:05:21.100 is who Jesus Christ is. And actually present the gospel promises to 93 00:05:21.100 --> 00:05:21.300 them. 94 00:05:21.300 --> 00:05:25.900 And so a lot of our Evangelical friends, brothers just don't have a 95 00:05:25.900 --> 00:05:30.500 category to do that, a set of categories to do that. It's a subtle shift actually 96 00:05:30.500 --> 00:05:31.200 thinking about it 97 00:05:31.200 --> 00:05:34.500 obviously were saved by faith in Christ, but we're not saved 98 00:05:34.500 --> 00:05:36.600 because of the quality of our faith 99 00:05:37.200 --> 00:05:41.700 and strength of our faith. But because of Christ and so when that subtle 100 00:05:41.700 --> 00:05:44.300 shift happens, I can make all the difference in the world completely. 101 00:05:44.300 --> 00:05:45.000 Completely. 102 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:50.200 Yeah it can be their self centered or Christ-centered and our old Adam 103 00:05:50.200 --> 00:05:52.200 wants to make it up self-centered sort of thing. 104 00:05:52.200 --> 00:05:52.400 Yeah. 105 00:05:52.400 --> 00:05:55.000 I remember some years ago 106 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:58.300 I remember you gave a presentation at one of these Christian 107 00:05:58.300 --> 00:05:59.600 counseling organizations. 108 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:04.200 And I think it was on kind of why the distinction of Law and Gospel 109 00:06:04.200 --> 00:06:07.000 the way we've been just now talking about it matters for Christian 110 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:12.200 Counseling and that that seemed to go over really well and maybe kind 111 00:06:12.200 --> 00:06:15.300 of gave you some of my thinking about the right being a need. Yeah. 112 00:06:15.300 --> 00:06:20.200 I actually wrote an article with a similar title for a British Journal 113 00:06:20.200 --> 00:06:24.400 of Christian counseling was invited to buy the British Journal 20, 22 114 00:06:24.400 --> 00:06:28.000 years ago and it has always been in the back of my mind, but then when I became 115 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:30.700 a parish of pastor, I kind of put it farther back in my mind because I was 116 00:06:30.700 --> 00:06:33.500 busy doing parish stuff. When I came back as a faculty member 117 00:06:33.500 --> 00:06:36.100 I actually them used this title. 118 00:06:36.100 --> 00:06:37.100 I sent in 119 00:06:37.200 --> 00:06:41.400 a proposal to American Association of Christian Counseling World 120 00:06:41.400 --> 00:06:46.800 Conference, which World conferences have 7.000 people that attend and 121 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.600 they while they have scores and scores of workshops. 122 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:54.000 They only accept like 10% of the proposals that come to them. 123 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:59.000 So I wasn't expecting to be accepted but it just so happened 124 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:02.900 one of the guys that was choosing I done is dissertation on Luther, 125 00:07:02.900 --> 00:07:03.400 Robert 126 00:07:03.400 --> 00:07:08.500 Kelemen. And he saw somebody doing something on Luther's way, well let's 127 00:07:08.500 --> 00:07:09.000 choose this one. 128 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:13.600 So, yeah, the first time I ever made this presentation 260 129 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:17.200 evangelicals came to hear me talk about these things. Wow. It was a 130 00:07:17.200 --> 00:07:21.800 roomful and then I made another presentation just in this past fall at 131 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:24.100 AACC with about a hundred people in attendance. 132 00:07:24.100 --> 00:07:29.400 So yeah, my experiences evangelicals want to be more Christ-centered 133 00:07:29.400 --> 00:07:32.800 and they realize there's a struggle that they're not being Christ 134 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:34.300 centered and Luther's theology 135 00:07:34.300 --> 00:07:37.100 I think can give them some new categories to at 136 00:07:37.200 --> 00:07:38.300 least think think about those things. 137 00:07:38.300 --> 00:07:44.100 So let's talk about Luther a little bit cuz I'm a Reformation teacher. 138 00:07:44.100 --> 00:07:52.100 A lot of what I learned came from Bob Kolb and you, Chuck Arand and others. And Luther I find over 139 00:07:52.100 --> 00:07:54.400 the years has such a broad reach. 140 00:07:54.400 --> 00:08:00.400 I mean, I think he is a a spiritual guide into into some really key 141 00:08:00.400 --> 00:08:05.000 ways of thinking about the scriptures and about the Christian faith 142 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:09.500 that applies to people outside of the the narrow Lutheran 143 00:08:09.500 --> 00:08:11.400 categories or Lutheran denominations. 144 00:08:11.400 --> 00:08:16.000 So I was really pleased to see this sort of the whole section 145 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:19.800 where you're really introducing your readers to these key thoughts that Luther has a 146 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:20.800 guide takes us through. Now, 147 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:26.800 I know that you know, the language of the care of souls, and of course you 148 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:31.900 hear this even in English churches that the curette or curettic soul 149 00:08:31.900 --> 00:08:36.700 care and that goes all the way back to Luther's kind of coined the 150 00:08:36.700 --> 00:08:37.100 phrase. 151 00:08:37.100 --> 00:08:43.799 Zales sorger, this Soul Care, as a description of maybe another phrase is just 152 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:50.100 pastoral care, but he's very clear about that. Do you want to talk a little bit about how important it is for you? I would even say he 153 00:08:50.100 --> 00:08:53.400 coined it in German but it goes back even farther and Latin The Cure 154 00:08:53.400 --> 00:09:01.400 on Gregory the Great wrote his book on Soul Care in 590 AD which was the second 155 00:09:01.400 --> 00:09:02.700 most popular book in Europe 156 00:09:02.700 --> 00:09:04.100 I'm told for a thousand years. Right. 157 00:09:04.100 --> 00:09:09.800 So yeah pastors and others have been interested in Soul care for 158 00:09:09.800 --> 00:09:14.700 thousands of years, but Luther brought a new kind of focus to it and 159 00:09:14.700 --> 00:09:18.000 then we did not take it for granted as Lutheran Pastors and 160 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:18.700 theologians. 161 00:09:18.700 --> 00:09:24.600 And so yeah, there's kind of a chapter on creation and how we are 162 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:29.800 creatures and if we focus on how we are fragile creatures and 163 00:09:29.800 --> 00:09:32.600 a lot of people are struggling with mental disorders, depression, 164 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:32.700 anxiety 165 00:09:32.700 --> 00:09:36.300 disorders or a whole host of others realize that they're fragile 166 00:09:36.300 --> 00:09:36.900 creatures. 167 00:09:37.100 --> 00:09:40.500 They are afraid of being so fragile and they're looking for some sort 168 00:09:40.500 --> 00:09:41.800 of hope that 169 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:46.900 even if I am physically fragile or emotionally fragile does God still 170 00:09:46.900 --> 00:09:49.600 love me and that's what the Gospel brings to them. 171 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:51.900 So and then yeah Theology of 172 00:09:51.900 --> 00:09:53.800 the Cross there is a chapter on that proper distinction of Law and Gospel, 173 00:09:53.800 --> 00:10:00.600 old Adam, new Adam all of those concepts I think can be useful to 174 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:04.500 anybody doing Soul care, but you don't see a lot of Christian 175 00:10:04.500 --> 00:10:07.200 counselors, Christian Psychologist talking about those particular 176 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:07.900 concepts. 177 00:10:07.900 --> 00:10:14.000 So this is I'd like you to talk a little bit about how you're not 178 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:18.300 you're not abdicating all of the training that you had a psychologist 179 00:10:18.300 --> 00:10:20.200 or clinical depressions things, 180 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:24.500 I mean the recommendations that are out there for treating these are 181 00:10:24.500 --> 00:10:25.800 still part of the conversation. 182 00:10:25.800 --> 00:10:28.900 So really what you're doing is are you adding to it 183 00:10:28.900 --> 00:10:31.900 or are you orienting it in a certain way how would you describe it? Probably orienting, 184 00:10:31.900 --> 00:10:35.200 that's probably a better way to put it. Yeah, I mean, I tell 185 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:38.900 students, you know, we are actually blessed to be able to do better 186 00:10:38.900 --> 00:10:40.700 Soul Care now then maybe 187 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:45.600 pastors a generation or two ago because if somebody was schizophrenia 188 00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:50.100 came to a pastor two generations ago, the pastor had no idea what to do 189 00:10:50.100 --> 00:10:53.000 with them or is there weren't antipsychotic treatments there weren't 190 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:57.100 antidepressants there weren't anxiety drugs and so forth. 191 00:10:57.100 --> 00:11:03.100 And while we is a culture depend too much on those treatments. Right. I estimate that 192 00:11:03.100 --> 00:11:06.300 may we probably over-prescribed those things 2 or 3 times as much 193 00:11:06.300 --> 00:11:10.700 as medical doctors do but they are still first article gifts that come 194 00:11:10.700 --> 00:11:15.400 to us that can and should be used. Gifts of creation. Gifts of creation, but 195 00:11:15.400 --> 00:11:20.000 they are not gifts at point us back to our Redeemer back to our Savior 196 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:26.100 and that's only comes through clear Gospel messages that pastors and 197 00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:30.300 Christian counselors can give to people that are struggling with does 198 00:11:30.300 --> 00:11:32.700 God still love me through my mental disorder. 199 00:11:32.700 --> 00:11:36.800 It sounds like you're opening up a possibility for Christian 200 00:11:36.800 --> 00:11:37.700 counselors to 201 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:45.300 to add to their work in our ministry by being able to recognize the 202 00:11:45.300 --> 00:11:52.000 the the biblical dimension. Not to what causes depression or those sort 203 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:55.500 of things cuz it's a very complicated experience 204 00:11:55.500 --> 00:11:58.000 that people have. But know that there's real anxieties that have 205 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:00.800 spiritual connections and that you can actually direct them in a way 206 00:12:00.800 --> 00:12:02.800 that comforts them as they're being treated right. 207 00:12:02.800 --> 00:12:06.000 I'm even trying to fill a kind of gap in the field. 208 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:10.700 There's a tension in the field of Christian Counseling between the 209 00:12:10.700 --> 00:12:13.100 Christian counselors in the biblical counselors. 210 00:12:13.100 --> 00:12:17.200 There are some people come from a slightly more fundamentalist 211 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:23.100 wing of Southern Baptist and others who say things like scripture is 212 00:12:23.100 --> 00:12:28.600 all we need. Sort of an anti-psychology and Psychiatry. Right. 213 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:31.500 They might not go so far as to say that they're anti but they just 214 00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:34.900 would primarily focus on biblical sort of answers to these things. 215 00:12:34.900 --> 00:12:37.600 Whereas I think we is Lutherans 216 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:38.500 well, yeah, let's look 217 00:12:38.500 --> 00:12:42.800 the biblical Gospel answers are going to love the Bible counseling 218 00:12:42.800 --> 00:12:46.400 stuff that I see doesn't properly distinguish Law and Gospel especially 219 00:12:46.400 --> 00:12:47.300 early stuff. 220 00:12:47.300 --> 00:12:53.000 I tell people that when I was first here as a student 221 00:12:53.000 --> 00:13:00.000 I started MA here in 1981 and I took Martin Haenschke for a class on 222 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:04.000 pastoral counseling and so he had us read one of the early Christian 223 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:08.000 Counseling books called "Competent to Counsel" written by Jay Adams. And 224 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:11.600 we all read it was by 25 30 of us in the class and it was me and a 225 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:15.100 bunch of fourth-year guys, I think, and we all read it and he came back. 226 00:13:15.100 --> 00:13:18.100 Okay, let's discuss it when we start discussing about how biblical we 227 00:13:18.100 --> 00:13:21.800 thought it was and how we like that it was biblical in comparison to 228 00:13:21.800 --> 00:13:24.400 other sort of counseling things we've read but there was something 229 00:13:24.400 --> 00:13:25.900 uncomfortable about it. 230 00:13:25.900 --> 00:13:30.600 That we couldn't identify and Haendschke, bless his soul, just kind of let us 231 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:34.600 talk about it for 5 or 10 minutes. And be kind of stupid when we were 232 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:37.700 in our twenties and then he finally looked at us all and said don't 233 00:13:37.700 --> 00:13:38.200 you realize 234 00:13:38.800 --> 00:13:41.300 Jay Adams didn't properly distinguish Law and Gospel. 235 00:13:41.300 --> 00:13:46.800 So he had just kind of treated the Bible as a new sort of treatment 236 00:13:46.800 --> 00:13:49.900 modality in a behavioristics sort of way. Oh 237 00:13:49.900 --> 00:13:50.100 sure. 238 00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:56.100 Again, in a late 70s book, now his successors guys like Ed Welch, Paul 239 00:13:56.100 --> 00:13:59.800 David Tripp have been doing a better job and I actually quote them in 240 00:13:59.800 --> 00:14:04.500 the book quite a lot cuz they they do understand the proper distinction 241 00:14:04.500 --> 00:14:06.800 of Law and Gospel, they're Presbyterian that do that rather 242 00:14:06.800 --> 00:14:11.400 well. Yeah. But it's really early early stuff in the biblical 243 00:14:11.400 --> 00:14:15.300 counseling by just said just tell me a Bible verse to tell him to stop 244 00:14:15.300 --> 00:14:18.600 doing it and that's not good pastoral care 245 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:23.100 it's not good Christian counseling. So I keep hearing sort of two 246 00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:28.000 audiences emerging for this book on the one hand that this grows out 247 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:31.700 of your interactions with Christian counselors in which their job is 248 00:14:31.700 --> 00:14:32.800 primary 249 00:14:32.800 --> 00:14:36.400 they're trained generally with various certifications for psychology 250 00:14:36.400 --> 00:14:38.000 or Psychiatry there 251 00:14:38.900 --> 00:14:43.400 often Christian Counseling degrees and they work in 252 00:14:43.400 --> 00:14:45.000 clinics or their own practices. 253 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:52.700 Then you have pastors who also are engaged on a regular basis with some kind of Christian 254 00:14:52.700 --> 00:14:53.800 Counseling though often 255 00:14:53.800 --> 00:14:55.400 they're not trained at that level. 256 00:14:55.400 --> 00:14:58.900 And also there are there things that they probably shouldn't try to do. 257 00:14:58.900 --> 00:14:59.100 Right. 258 00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:04.200 Can you talk about the role that this plays for those two groups? 259 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:04.700 Both audiences. 260 00:15:04.700 --> 00:15:08.200 In fact, I try to consistently use the word soul caregiver with in the 261 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:12.500 book to kind of bridge the gap between the two that pastors and 262 00:15:12.500 --> 00:15:17.000 Christian counselors are both Soul caregivers, the one focuses more on 263 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:22.300 may be sinful issues and suffering issues and the other one deals more 264 00:15:22.300 --> 00:15:27.500 with suffering issues and biopsychosocial damage that people have gone 265 00:15:27.500 --> 00:15:30.400 through because of bad childhood experiences or genetic 266 00:15:30.400 --> 00:15:32.800 predispositions or whatever, 267 00:15:32.800 --> 00:15:36.500 so. But yet what I'm really trying to do with this book is provide 268 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:43.300 Lutheran pastors with a catechism so to speak of, a Lutheran Pastor is going 269 00:15:43.300 --> 00:15:45.900 to read the first half of the book and go I learned all this at 270 00:15:45.900 --> 00:15:53.500 Seminary. Right. This is Luther's theology I kind of know this already. Marrs has a few interesting takes on Luther's emphasis 271 00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:56.700 on Soul care, but it won't be surprising to them. 272 00:15:56.700 --> 00:16:00.600 But the second half of the book is techniques that I think pastors 273 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:04.100 can you use as well as Christian counselors. But what I'm really 274 00:16:04.100 --> 00:16:09.300 hoping is that Lutheran pastors will take this and then loan it to the 275 00:16:09.300 --> 00:16:13.300 Christian counselor who probably not Lutheran but they refer their 276 00:16:13.300 --> 00:16:17.100 parishioners to. Because I hear so many stories from Lutheran pastors 277 00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:19.600 that say, yeah, I send them to a Christian counselor 278 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:23.200 and I know that they deal with them in a Biblical perspective, but 279 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:27.000 they come back and they are saying things that I wouldn't want them to 280 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:30.800 say is a Lutheran Pastor again, the Christian counselor doesn't 281 00:16:30.800 --> 00:16:34.800 understand the Theology of the Cross or proper distinction of Law and Gospel so forth. 282 00:16:34.800 --> 00:16:36.900 So I actually encourage pastors 283 00:16:37.100 --> 00:16:41.800 to get a copy of this read it themselves if they like it then loan 284 00:16:41.800 --> 00:16:45.100 it to the non Lutheran Christian counselor, they refer people to and 285 00:16:45.100 --> 00:16:49.400 say hey can we have a conversation about this in a month or so. If you 286 00:16:49.400 --> 00:16:53.100 would read this it might help you and your in your counseling of all 287 00:16:53.100 --> 00:16:57.300 your clients, but especially with the clients that I refer to you as 288 00:16:57.300 --> 00:17:01.200 specially and you kind of an implicit and I'll keep referring people 289 00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:06.300 if we can have this conversation and then have that conversation. 290 00:17:06.300 --> 00:17:09.599 Maybe two or three or five conversations about that over the next 291 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:15.400 several months and catechize these non Lutheran Christian 292 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:19.400 counselors into appreciating what Luther and then they'll be able to 293 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:19.800 ask question. 294 00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:24.099 What did Marrs mean about this on page 92 and it gives them an 295 00:17:24.099 --> 00:17:28.400 opportunity to explain to them maybe in better detail and what I did 296 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.600 in that particular page that particular aspect and Luther's theology. 297 00:17:32.600 --> 00:17:33.800 So I'm really seeing it. 298 00:17:33.800 --> 00:17:37.100 I'm hoping that it will be a bridge between Lutheran 299 00:17:37.100 --> 00:17:42.400 pastors who want to get good Soul care for their parishioners, but are 300 00:17:43.600 --> 00:17:51.800 feeling unable to find Christian counselors who understand the Soul 301 00:17:51.800 --> 00:17:58.000 Care theology from their perspective. We've done a poor job as Lutherans in teaching this to non 302 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:03.000 Lutherans and I'm hopeful it's a avenue. And I already got it in two 303 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.800 and a hands of some non Lutheran colleges and seminaries. 304 00:18:05.800 --> 00:18:08.200 So they're at least doing review copies of it. 305 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:10.900 So I hope in the future they might even use it in their curriculum somewhere. 306 00:18:10.900 --> 00:18:12.000 Excellent. 307 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:16.300 Well it does sound like a certainly a centerpiece in collaborating in 308 00:18:16.300 --> 00:18:21.600 Parish Ministry for the care of members with people outside the church 309 00:18:21.600 --> 00:18:25.200 and if they can function that way I think it's going to be great great 310 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:29.400 service. One other little thing for you as historian a Chapter 8 is it 311 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.600 was kind of late edition Luther as Soul caregiver. 312 00:18:32.600 --> 00:18:35.800 Yes. You and other some sort of put me on to this. 313 00:18:37.600 --> 00:18:41.400 I realized readers are probably asked a question well Luther had this 314 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:44.400 Soul care theology, but was he actually a good Soul caregiver himself. 315 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:44.600 Right? 316 00:18:44.600 --> 00:18:49.100 Right. And we have these thousands of letters. Exactly. Of Luther writing 317 00:18:49.100 --> 00:18:53.900 to people all across Europe giving them the same suggestions that you 318 00:18:53.900 --> 00:18:56.100 would probably giving to others face to face. 319 00:18:56.100 --> 00:18:59.700 Right. But he didn't have Skype or Internet or whatever to do online 320 00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:04.000 counseling like we do now and he was considered this top-of-the-line 321 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:09.600 care of souls. Right. Even to the point where one author Stephen Peach, 322 00:19:09.600 --> 00:19:17.100 Peach, said he gave some of Luther's letters to some depressed counselees 323 00:19:17.100 --> 00:19:20.400 that he was seeing and one of the counselees she's told him he 324 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:24.900 understands the struggle I'm going through this was more helpful to me 325 00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:26.700 than the counseling we've been doing. 326 00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:32.800 So if Luther can speak 500 years later to the heart of someone who still 327 00:19:32.800 --> 00:19:33.700 struggling with depression. 328 00:19:34.700 --> 00:19:36.400 Shouldn't we be listening to him still today? 329 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:37.500 Yeah, I 330 00:19:37.500 --> 00:19:39.200 that's that's that's absolutely true. 331 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:43.900 I mean I'm working with Luther's letters on on spiritual counsel. 332 00:19:43.900 --> 00:19:47.400 It is amazing the inside and so you're I think you're absolutely 333 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:47.800 right. 334 00:19:47.800 --> 00:19:52.200 He's got a sense a sense of the issue is not just sort of bringing 335 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:53.900 theological distinctions and sitting back. 336 00:19:53.900 --> 00:19:54.000 Yeah. 337 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:59.400 He was the first historic figure that historians say actually treated 338 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:04.000 people with psychotic breaks with respect and medical doctors and 339 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:07.400 pastors of that time just for dismissing them in the laughing at them. 340 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:07.600 Right. 341 00:20:07.600 --> 00:20:10.700 He said no we need to care for these people and love these people. 342 00:20:10.700 --> 00:20:11.200 Right. 343 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:11.600 Right. 344 00:20:11.600 --> 00:20:17.600 Well another one in the in the same tradition doing the same sort of 345 00:20:17.600 --> 00:20:17.900 thing. 346 00:20:17.900 --> 00:20:19.600 I'm I'm grateful that this has come out. 347 00:20:19.600 --> 00:20:23.300 So it's it's making "Christian Counseling more Christ-centered." 348 00:20:23.300 --> 00:20:28.700 It's from Westbow Press and and actually going to the Westbow Press 349 00:20:28.700 --> 00:20:31.700 site is is the preferred way to purchase. Preferred way to do it. 350 00:20:31.700 --> 00:20:34.300 My wife and I have decided to take the 351 00:20:34.700 --> 00:20:37.700 majority of the proceeds that we receive from the book and donate to 352 00:20:37.700 --> 00:20:42.900 Ambassadors of Reconciliation and Doxology which are two major Soul Care 353 00:20:42.900 --> 00:20:46.400 organizations in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod recognized service 354 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:47.200 organizations. 355 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:52.600 So, yeah, if if they buy from Westbow, then we're able to make a 356 00:20:52.600 --> 00:20:58.800 better donation if they buy from Amazon, Amazon takes a lot of it. 357 00:20:58.800 --> 00:21:02.500 Yes, this is at Westbow Press "Christian Counseling more 358 00:21:02.500 --> 00:21:04.300 Christ-centered" by Dr. 359 00:21:04.300 --> 00:21:04.900 Rick Marrs. 360 00:21:04.900 --> 00:21:07.400 Thank you for being here. And thank you very much for having me. And 361 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:09.300 thank you for being here until next time. 362 00:21:09.300 --> 00:21:10.600 This is Concordia Theology.