1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,773 Welcome to Under the Fig Tree podcast. 2 00:00:06,773 --> 00:00:12,579 In today's episode, hosts Reverend Micah Glenn and Reverend Dr. Ben Hout talk theology and 3 00:00:12,579 --> 00:00:17,951 life as they meditate Under the Fig Tree. 4 00:00:17,951 --> 00:00:18,952 What's up, what's up, what's up? 5 00:00:18,952 --> 00:00:22,355 Welcome back once again to the Under the Fig Tree podcast. 6 00:00:22,355 --> 00:00:25,592 On this episode, I'm joined once again by Reverend Tom Schlund, one of our admissions 7 00:00:25,592 --> 00:00:33,233 officers at Concordia Seminary St. Louis, and Dr. Charles Arand, one of our systematic professors. 8 00:00:33,233 --> 00:00:40,206 Well, you're a systematician, one of our professors in our doctrinal theology department. 9 00:00:40,206 --> 00:00:41,508 There we go. 10 00:00:41,508 --> 00:00:47,213 And so last episode, we sat around and we covered a lot of different things, I would 11 00:00:47,213 --> 00:00:48,214 say. 12 00:00:48,214 --> 00:00:53,053 In particular, we asked Dr. Arand the question that we ask most of our new guests, what was 13 00:00:53,053 --> 00:00:54,154 your path to ministry? 14 00:00:54,154 --> 00:00:59,359 So if you didn't have a chance to hear that, make sure to go back and listen. 15 00:00:59,359 --> 00:01:03,430 But we were talking about just kind of, for a while, theology in general, which I think 16 00:01:03,430 --> 00:01:08,401 when we talk about the Book of Concord, that's kind of the point, is there are a lot of things 17 00:01:08,401 --> 00:01:11,805 to be talked about and we have this wonderful book compiled. 18 00:01:11,805 --> 00:01:13,673 And so we briefly covered the preface. 19 00:01:13,673 --> 00:01:19,946 You know, it's one of these things where you're like, the Book of Concord would be a great 20 00:01:19,946 --> 00:01:22,048 topic and it is for a series. 21 00:01:22,048 --> 00:01:24,150 And I was like, let's do all the parts. 22 00:01:24,150 --> 00:01:27,187 Let's cover the preface, because we covered it in class. 23 00:01:27,187 --> 00:01:32,125 And when you get six advanced studies students in a classroom... 24 00:01:32,125 --> 00:01:33,126 Talk about it for a long time. 25 00:01:33,126 --> 00:01:35,228 With Dr. Kolb, yeah, exactly. 26 00:01:35,228 --> 00:01:37,597 Well inevitably, you do exactly what we did. 27 00:01:37,597 --> 00:01:41,968 You talk about it a little bit, but you talk about everything else for the majority of 28 00:01:41,968 --> 00:01:43,503 the two hours. 29 00:01:43,503 --> 00:01:50,276 But today, Tom has been instructed by me last time, as you all heard, to keep us in order 30 00:01:50,276 --> 00:01:51,277 and on topic. 31 00:01:51,277 --> 00:01:56,349 While we were talking, there's kind of a balance to this, or a rhythm to hosting a podcast 32 00:01:56,349 --> 00:01:58,685 that you and Ben have developed really well. 33 00:01:58,685 --> 00:02:00,920 And so we're kind of figuring that out still. 34 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,456 Well, especially when, again, when Ben's not here. 35 00:02:03,456 --> 00:02:09,562 He's the time and taskmaster and I'm the me, whatever that means. 36 00:02:09,562 --> 00:02:13,600 But today we're covering the three ecumenical creeds. 37 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:18,037 So we're going to be talking about the Apostles, Nicene and the Athanasian Creed. 38 00:02:18,037 --> 00:02:23,810 And how we talk about it is the interesting part. 39 00:02:23,810 --> 00:02:24,811 But Dr... 40 00:02:24,811 --> 00:02:28,748 Oh, I was going to say, I feel like a good place to start would be the why. 41 00:02:28,748 --> 00:02:32,752 Why did they include them in the Book of Concord? 42 00:02:32,752 --> 00:02:34,087 Why would the reformers throw that? 43 00:02:34,087 --> 00:02:36,489 Because that's the first thing that pops up after the Preface. 44 00:02:36,489 --> 00:02:37,490 That's true. 45 00:02:37,490 --> 00:02:49,736 Well, I think the simple answer is that living in a time when there is, they see continuity 46 00:02:49,736 --> 00:02:51,871 between themselves and the early church. 47 00:02:51,871 --> 00:03:01,548 And the idea of bringing forth something new would be seen as a novelty. 48 00:03:01,548 --> 00:03:09,689 And if it's new and never before taught, then where was the Holy Spirit for the past 1500 49 00:03:09,689 --> 00:03:10,690 years? 50 00:03:10,690 --> 00:03:11,691 Sure. 51 00:03:11,691 --> 00:03:12,692 Kind of thing. 52 00:03:12,692 --> 00:03:15,128 That's sort of the theological answer. 53 00:03:15,128 --> 00:03:25,905 The practical answer, the political answer is that they were also part of the Holy Roman 54 00:03:25,905 --> 00:03:28,041 Empire. 55 00:03:28,041 --> 00:03:38,384 And going back to the what's known as a Theodosian Code 380 or 381 AD, I think. 56 00:03:38,384 --> 00:03:44,791 Theodosius made the edict that in order to be a citizen of Rome, a citizen of the Roman 57 00:03:44,791 --> 00:03:49,362 Empire, you had to accept the Nicene faith. 58 00:03:49,362 --> 00:03:58,004 And that was both good and bad, I suppose, maybe the start of Christendom. 59 00:03:58,004 --> 00:04:03,376 But the downside of it was it would link heresy and treason together in the long run. 60 00:04:03,376 --> 00:04:08,915 So that if you reject the Nicene faith, you're not only rejecting that, you're rejecting 61 00:04:08,915 --> 00:04:16,856 your citizenship as a Roman citizen, which would be tantamount to treason. 62 00:04:16,856 --> 00:04:24,564 And so I think what developed over time, then if you are a traitor, you would normally be 63 00:04:24,564 --> 00:04:25,565 put to death. 64 00:04:25,565 --> 00:04:28,401 If you were a heretic, you'd be rejected by the word of God. 65 00:04:28,401 --> 00:04:34,407 But once you link those two, and heresy and treason become bound together, then you can 66 00:04:34,407 --> 00:04:39,145 deal with heretics also by putting them to the stake or putting them to death. 67 00:04:39,145 --> 00:04:46,452 So the Lutheran princes are members of the Holy Roman Empire. 68 00:04:46,452 --> 00:04:50,089 Luther's prince, Frederick the Wise, was one of the electors, one of seven electors who 69 00:04:50,089 --> 00:04:52,825 elect the emperor. 70 00:04:52,825 --> 00:05:00,566 And so they needed to tell the emperor, show the emperor that we are solid citizens, good 71 00:05:00,566 --> 00:05:05,405 loyal citizens of the Holy Roman Empire because we hold to the Nicene faith, which is why 72 00:05:05,405 --> 00:05:13,112 the very first sentence of Article I in the Augsburg Confession mentions the Nicene Creed. 73 00:05:13,112 --> 00:05:19,585 And so the ecumenical Creed mentioning the apostles and the Athanasian were further ways 74 00:05:19,585 --> 00:05:31,364 of attesting to their citizenship credentials, as well as their theological credentials or 75 00:05:31,364 --> 00:05:32,365 theological continuity. 76 00:05:32,365 --> 00:05:33,366 Does that make sense? 77 00:05:33,366 --> 00:05:34,367 Yeah, I think that's pretty interesting. 78 00:05:34,367 --> 00:05:35,368 Yeah, and I think that's interesting. 79 00:05:35,368 --> 00:05:39,505 It kind of connects back with something we talked about in the last episode about how 80 00:05:39,505 --> 00:05:47,714 much of a political effort was going on here, as well as a doctrinal sort of reform effort 81 00:05:47,714 --> 00:05:51,584 that there were political implications for what was happening here, just as much as there 82 00:05:51,584 --> 00:05:52,585 were church implications. 83 00:05:52,585 --> 00:05:55,688 Yep, you just can't separate it. 84 00:05:55,688 --> 00:06:00,426 So for example, even in the—and I'm getting off track already. 85 00:06:00,426 --> 00:06:02,428 No issues over on this side of the— 86 00:06:02,428 --> 00:06:10,903 But even with the introduction to the Augsburg Confession, initially Melanchthon had drafted 87 00:06:10,903 --> 00:06:18,845 it, but the princes didn't like what he had drafted because they felt maybe it was too—I 88 00:06:18,845 --> 00:06:26,886 don't know if I want to say accommodating or—I hesitate to say whiny because Melanchthon, 89 00:06:26,886 --> 00:06:33,559 I don't consider him to be—he's a church diplomat, is what he is. 90 00:06:33,559 --> 00:06:37,630 But he sort of had this sense of like, you know, we've been treated fairly since we've 91 00:06:37,630 --> 00:06:42,368 been here, you know, yada yada yada kind of thing. 92 00:06:42,368 --> 00:06:47,373 And princes don't want to come off sounding like that. 93 00:06:47,373 --> 00:06:54,547 So they elicited Chancellor Brick, I think it was Chancellor Brick, who was a lawyer, 94 00:06:54,547 --> 00:06:58,050 to draft the introduction. 95 00:06:58,050 --> 00:07:06,192 And I think Leif Grani talks about it as sort of a diplomatic masterpiece in some ways because 96 00:07:06,192 --> 00:07:09,762 in our day we talk about spin control. 97 00:07:09,762 --> 00:07:13,733 And this is a masterpiece in spin control in my opinion because what he does in the 98 00:07:13,733 --> 00:07:23,810 first half of the preface, he says, hey, Charles, you summoned us all here to Augsburg. 99 00:07:23,810 --> 00:07:24,911 We were the first ones here. 100 00:07:24,911 --> 00:07:26,712 We're ready to go. 101 00:07:26,712 --> 00:07:29,315 The other party, they kind of came late. 102 00:07:29,315 --> 00:07:32,251 And Charles, you said everyone should bring their written opinions. 103 00:07:32,251 --> 00:07:33,553 Here's ours. 104 00:07:33,553 --> 00:07:35,655 Where's theirs? 105 00:07:35,655 --> 00:07:39,492 And so, and by theirs he means the other party. 106 00:07:39,492 --> 00:07:40,760 And that's the other thing that's interesting. 107 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:47,767 He does not treat the Roman side as if they are church and the Lutherans are hoping that 108 00:07:47,767 --> 00:07:51,671 they will be recognized by Rome as church. 109 00:07:51,671 --> 00:07:59,712 Instead, he portrays it as two parties within the church staying on equal footing, you know, 110 00:07:59,712 --> 00:08:03,149 who are having this debate. 111 00:08:03,149 --> 00:08:07,787 And so what he's doing is he's painting this picture that if the Diet fails to achieve 112 00:08:07,787 --> 00:08:11,924 Charles's outcomes, it's not going to be our fault. 113 00:08:11,924 --> 00:08:13,392 We did everything you asked us to. 114 00:08:13,392 --> 00:08:16,596 It would be their fault because they came late. 115 00:08:16,596 --> 00:08:17,597 They don't have a document. 116 00:08:17,597 --> 00:08:20,399 Now, why don't they have a document or a written statement? 117 00:08:20,399 --> 00:08:25,471 Well, from their standpoint, you don't negotiate with heretics. 118 00:08:25,471 --> 00:08:31,544 So the second half of the Preface then is aimed at getting Charles to recuse himself 119 00:08:31,544 --> 00:08:35,248 from rendering a final judgment. 120 00:08:35,248 --> 00:08:42,889 And the way Chancellor Burke does that is he basically says, hey, Charles, a year or 121 00:08:42,889 --> 00:08:46,259 two ago you wanted a church council. 122 00:08:46,259 --> 00:08:52,431 And we want a church council to resolve these things rather than an imperial Diet. 123 00:08:52,431 --> 00:08:57,303 So you want a church council, we want a church council, who doesn't want a church council? 124 00:08:57,303 --> 00:08:58,304 Those guys. 125 00:08:58,304 --> 00:08:59,305 The Pope, yeah. 126 00:08:59,305 --> 00:09:00,306 Right. 127 00:09:00,306 --> 00:09:05,912 So he's intervening in the delicate relationship between the emperor and the Pope. 128 00:09:05,912 --> 00:09:12,018 Now none of this works, but this is sort of what he's trying to do. 129 00:09:12,018 --> 00:09:17,323 So that's, again, an aspect of the political side alongside the theological side. 130 00:09:17,323 --> 00:09:28,367 But that dialogue between two parties of what we're saying and what they're saying is essentially 131 00:09:28,367 --> 00:09:34,607 – not essentially, it's exactly how the creeds came to be, especially on the conversation 132 00:09:34,607 --> 00:09:37,743 of heresy. 133 00:09:37,743 --> 00:09:44,350 You know, I think sometimes we use that word without really fully knowing the implications 134 00:09:44,350 --> 00:09:48,988 of it sometimes, where there's sometimes theological disagreement. 135 00:09:48,988 --> 00:09:51,824 We'll be like, well, that's heretical. 136 00:09:51,824 --> 00:09:55,528 It's like, well, is it heretical? 137 00:09:55,528 --> 00:09:59,632 I guess that's a different topic, but for the creeds in particular, I mean, they were 138 00:09:59,632 --> 00:10:05,771 actually dealing with real heresy around the question of who is God? 139 00:10:05,771 --> 00:10:08,975 And these heresies still come about. 140 00:10:08,975 --> 00:10:11,944 Some of them more than others, they haven't really disappeared anyway. 141 00:10:11,944 --> 00:10:21,654 But that's essentially always been my understanding of why the creeds came into existence and 142 00:10:21,654 --> 00:10:26,225 kind of the tradition that gave birth to them. 143 00:10:26,225 --> 00:10:31,364 So of course, I was interested by this. 144 00:10:31,364 --> 00:10:36,836 Whenever somebody asked me what's the earliest creed, I naturally say the Nicene Creed, because 145 00:10:36,836 --> 00:10:43,809 that's kind of the one that got the form that we use first, I think, its final form. 146 00:10:43,809 --> 00:10:46,045 But is that necessarily true? 147 00:10:46,045 --> 00:10:50,549 Was the Apostles' Creed kind of like a baptismal creed already in use pre-Nicaea? 148 00:10:50,549 --> 00:10:55,655 So the key phrase you used was final form. 149 00:10:55,655 --> 00:10:59,258 And if you use that qualifier, you're correct. 150 00:10:59,258 --> 00:11:05,464 There's a sense where the Apostles' Creed is both older and newer. 151 00:11:05,464 --> 00:11:09,735 So it's older in the sense that it arises out of baptismal creeds and something called 152 00:11:09,735 --> 00:11:15,975 the old Roman Creed, the creed used by Christians in Rome. 153 00:11:15,975 --> 00:11:20,913 But it didn't achieve its final form as we know it with certain features, whether it's 154 00:11:20,913 --> 00:11:25,651 the descent into hell, the phrase communion of saints, and a few other things like that, 155 00:11:25,651 --> 00:11:28,888 until probably the eighth century. 156 00:11:28,888 --> 00:11:36,662 And so there's a sense where even with the Nicene Creed, they don't have a sense of a 157 00:11:36,662 --> 00:11:43,436 written document the way we do, where it's like the first edition is the best edition. 158 00:11:43,436 --> 00:11:49,108 I mean, you're living in an oral age where most people don't read or write and they don't 159 00:11:49,108 --> 00:11:52,645 have access to obviously a printing press. 160 00:11:52,645 --> 00:12:00,052 So there's a, so say the Nicene faith or the Apostles' Creed was in some ways seen more 161 00:12:00,052 --> 00:12:07,026 as the content than the specific wording and adaptable. 162 00:12:07,026 --> 00:12:14,233 So as people used, say, hey, well, they're using this to teach their catechumens or those 163 00:12:14,233 --> 00:12:18,738 who are being baptized are using this Roman Creed, we'll use it. 164 00:12:18,738 --> 00:12:22,408 But we have this question or problem in our context. 165 00:12:22,408 --> 00:12:23,876 So we want to teach on that. 166 00:12:23,876 --> 00:12:30,216 So we're going to include a phrase that addresses that question. 167 00:12:30,216 --> 00:12:39,024 And so over time, you know, I don't know if I want to say each, the Creed is sort of adaptable 168 00:12:39,024 --> 00:12:47,333 to different contexts in the sense of it provides a framework where you can address a question 169 00:12:47,333 --> 00:12:51,971 that is of some urgent urgency in your context. 170 00:12:51,971 --> 00:12:53,739 I don't know if that makes sense or not. 171 00:12:53,739 --> 00:12:59,411 Yeah, it kind of falls in line with our, just our Christian life of confessing the faith 172 00:12:59,411 --> 00:13:04,016 to answer the questions that we encounter that, you know, we talk a little bit about 173 00:13:04,016 --> 00:13:09,221 the use for the Book of Concord or our confessions and how we utilize them in our own lives and 174 00:13:09,221 --> 00:13:13,025 how different time periods come with different questions that need answering. 175 00:13:13,025 --> 00:13:15,060 No, you're right about that. 176 00:13:15,060 --> 00:13:23,369 The difference I think though is we would never think of adding a phrase or word or 177 00:13:23,369 --> 00:13:25,171 something to the Augsburg Confession. 178 00:13:25,171 --> 00:13:26,172 No. 179 00:13:26,172 --> 00:13:30,276 You know, because it's like, it's written, that's the way it is. 180 00:13:30,276 --> 00:13:33,913 Now even the 1520s or something like that didn't have any qualm with it because the 181 00:13:33,913 --> 00:13:37,983 printing press was new and was like, hey, it allows us to revise and improve. 182 00:13:37,983 --> 00:13:38,984 Sure. 183 00:13:38,984 --> 00:13:44,356 You know, they don't have the sense of the oldest one is the original is the best. 184 00:13:44,356 --> 00:13:49,728 So that's one of the differences I think is that when they dealt with those questions, 185 00:13:49,728 --> 00:13:54,733 they could maybe insert something into the Creed that would allow them to. 186 00:13:54,733 --> 00:13:56,902 So you know, the same thing is with the Bible. 187 00:13:56,902 --> 00:14:04,510 I'm sure you know this, that you had different orderings for the books of the Bible. 188 00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:05,511 Right. 189 00:14:05,511 --> 00:14:06,512 And so forth. 190 00:14:06,512 --> 00:14:10,549 But it's not until a printing press comes along and you can produce 10,000 copies that 191 00:14:10,549 --> 00:14:12,017 look exactly alike. 192 00:14:12,017 --> 00:14:13,018 Exactly. 193 00:14:13,018 --> 00:14:14,787 That tends to become some standard. 194 00:14:14,787 --> 00:14:15,788 Some standard. 195 00:14:15,788 --> 00:14:18,824 Yeah, kind of thing. 196 00:14:18,824 --> 00:14:25,764 And so we'll get to the Athanasian Creed in a moment just because it is, it's just different 197 00:14:25,764 --> 00:14:26,765 than the other two. 198 00:14:26,765 --> 00:14:28,133 There's no way around it. 199 00:14:28,133 --> 00:14:31,871 Not to say that it's confessing a different faith, but we're talking about the questions 200 00:14:31,871 --> 00:14:32,872 of the day. 201 00:14:32,872 --> 00:14:33,873 Right. 202 00:14:33,873 --> 00:14:36,308 Different ones are being answered and some had already been answered. 203 00:14:36,308 --> 00:14:37,943 So why go back and even argue those ones? 204 00:14:37,943 --> 00:14:38,944 Like, well, we've already done that. 205 00:14:38,944 --> 00:14:41,313 We're doing, we're moving on to a new thing. 206 00:14:41,313 --> 00:14:47,753 But the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed and kind of structure for the most part content 207 00:14:47,753 --> 00:14:49,255 are very similar. 208 00:14:49,255 --> 00:14:56,428 And so when it came to Nicaea, where you have all these bishops coming together and they're 209 00:14:56,428 --> 00:15:03,235 gathering in this council and they've been given an order, you know, figure out and standardize 210 00:15:03,235 --> 00:15:06,372 how you guys, how the Christian church is going to confess its faith. 211 00:15:06,372 --> 00:15:10,175 What are you guys actually going to say? 212 00:15:10,175 --> 00:15:16,582 Was the baptismal creed kind of a blueprint for how they thought? 213 00:15:16,582 --> 00:15:19,218 And is that how it developed from that? 214 00:15:19,218 --> 00:15:21,654 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 215 00:15:21,654 --> 00:15:29,461 I can't recall exactly, but there is a sense that they didn't write this thing from scratch, 216 00:15:29,461 --> 00:15:36,902 that they made use of a preexisting baptismal creed and then inserted a number of clauses 217 00:15:36,902 --> 00:15:38,504 into it. 218 00:15:38,504 --> 00:15:40,406 And I think there's even some debate. 219 00:15:40,406 --> 00:15:41,774 So you have that in 325. 220 00:15:41,774 --> 00:15:45,177 I think the creed we use is from 381. 221 00:15:45,177 --> 00:15:49,415 And I think even there, there are some who speculate, maybe they used to even a different 222 00:15:49,415 --> 00:15:51,450 baptismal creed for that one. 223 00:15:51,450 --> 00:15:57,856 So oh, well, it's fuller and, you know, it includes a few other things. 224 00:15:57,856 --> 00:16:00,426 But the faith is the same. 225 00:16:00,426 --> 00:16:03,629 And the reason for the baptismal creed obviously is in the name of the Father, Son and Holy 226 00:16:03,629 --> 00:16:04,630 Spirit. 227 00:16:04,630 --> 00:16:09,969 So I think for like the Nicene Creed, what's important is to recognize that it's trying 228 00:16:09,969 --> 00:16:14,206 to answer the question, who is Jesus? 229 00:16:14,206 --> 00:16:19,144 And in the same way that we answer, like if someone says, who are you, Chuck Arand? 230 00:16:19,144 --> 00:16:26,352 I tell them about my relationships, my parents, grandparents, teachers, friends. 231 00:16:26,352 --> 00:16:35,894 So they first, the Nicene Creed is focused on answering that question by talking about 232 00:16:35,894 --> 00:16:39,965 who Jesus is in relationship to the Father. 233 00:16:39,965 --> 00:16:42,901 And then in relationship to the Spirit. 234 00:16:42,901 --> 00:16:46,305 And that's, gives you the three articles. 235 00:16:46,305 --> 00:16:53,912 And so the next century, the fifth century, yeah, by the time you get to Counsel in 236 00:16:53,912 --> 00:17:00,652 451, now they're answering the question, who is Jesus in relationship to his human nature? 237 00:17:00,652 --> 00:17:04,223 So first in relationship to God, Father and Spirit, and then in relationship to his human 238 00:17:04,223 --> 00:17:06,492 nature. 239 00:17:06,492 --> 00:17:12,331 Which is a question that I'm very interested in, dissertation wise. 240 00:17:12,331 --> 00:17:17,569 Not that I'm the first or last or whatever else, but it is important for us to consider 241 00:17:17,569 --> 00:17:23,142 Jesus' humanity because of, it's pretty relevant to our salvation. 242 00:17:23,142 --> 00:17:25,711 It's a significant part of who He is. 243 00:17:25,711 --> 00:17:32,418 But, and so we, even then, so again, we have the story of scripture, right? 244 00:17:32,418 --> 00:17:37,823 Which ends with John, maybe around the end, beginning, end of the first century, maybe 245 00:17:37,823 --> 00:17:40,459 into the beginning, very beginning of the second century. 246 00:17:40,459 --> 00:17:42,861 So we have scripture, we have what scripture says. 247 00:17:42,861 --> 00:17:51,570 And one thing that Dr. Kolb, that I, he has so many wise sayings, but in talking about 248 00:17:51,570 --> 00:17:57,576 scripture and the need for a confession, because while scripture does provide everything, that 249 00:17:57,576 --> 00:18:05,417 we need to understand and know who God is and what He's done, in and of itself, especially 250 00:18:05,417 --> 00:18:12,958 for the average person, I'm going to throw myself into that bucket, it is still insufficient 251 00:18:12,958 --> 00:18:18,697 in so far as how can anybody search the scriptures for their entire life and come up with the 252 00:18:18,697 --> 00:18:21,767 full comprehensive of every, understanding of everything it says. 253 00:18:21,767 --> 00:18:26,905 It's just too deep for any of us to comprehend in one single lifetime. 254 00:18:26,905 --> 00:18:32,177 So we have the benefit, especially now, 2,000 years later, we have this big long tradition 255 00:18:32,177 --> 00:18:34,546 of history of passing down these traditions. 256 00:18:34,546 --> 00:18:39,384 But in the midst of that, because we still have these challenges today, people always 257 00:18:39,384 --> 00:18:46,692 ask me, what are all the denominational differences about, aren't we all Christians? 258 00:18:46,692 --> 00:18:52,297 I'm like, you know, so long as they hold the Nicene faith, I don't say it that way, but 259 00:18:52,297 --> 00:18:55,634 that's kind of the gist of what I'm trying to tell them is like, it's so long as they 260 00:18:55,634 --> 00:18:57,669 believe the Nicene Creed. 261 00:18:57,669 --> 00:19:02,975 Yeah, we're all Christians, but there are certain aspects of the Christian life that 262 00:19:02,975 --> 00:19:07,312 are relevant to your faith here now, which can be extremely fragile, especially dependent 263 00:19:07,312 --> 00:19:15,454 on what you believe to be kind of the standards of your faith and its implications that matter. 264 00:19:15,454 --> 00:19:21,193 And we all come to these different conclusions from the same source, scripture. 265 00:19:21,193 --> 00:19:23,862 And so we can all agree on this Nicene faith. 266 00:19:23,862 --> 00:19:28,433 But then when it comes to baptism, the Lord's supper and so far law gospel, we have these 267 00:19:28,433 --> 00:19:33,505 differences because of our interpretation of scripture, which was happening long before 268 00:19:33,505 --> 00:19:37,976 the reformation long before us, which was happening, which is why people started confessing 269 00:19:37,976 --> 00:19:40,212 their faith to the creeds. 270 00:19:40,212 --> 00:19:47,386 And so you had people that were denying Jesus as humanity, people denying his divinity. 271 00:19:47,386 --> 00:19:51,323 You had people denying Trinitarian theology altogether. 272 00:19:51,323 --> 00:20:00,065 And without getting, or I don't want to limit your answer, but that's kind of the milieu 273 00:20:00,065 --> 00:20:02,167 that these creeds are being born out of. 274 00:20:02,167 --> 00:20:06,605 And it's not, again, we're talking about, I said what John, end of the first, beginning 275 00:20:06,605 --> 00:20:10,275 of the second century, and we don't get Nicene until 325. 276 00:20:10,275 --> 00:20:17,015 So we have a couple hundred years of what we consider to be proper teaching of scripture, 277 00:20:17,015 --> 00:20:24,256 and then a couple of years of wrong teaching or heretical teaching of scripture. 278 00:20:24,256 --> 00:20:25,257 Is that a good way of- 279 00:20:25,257 --> 00:20:26,892 Yeah, I'm just thinking. 280 00:20:26,892 --> 00:20:28,794 No, you're right on track. 281 00:20:28,794 --> 00:20:33,498 I'm trying to think of a... 282 00:20:33,498 --> 00:20:40,839 First of all, in terms of the heresies, you're right about some who were denying the humanity 283 00:20:40,839 --> 00:20:44,076 or some may be denying the deity of Jesus. 284 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:53,552 I think, but it is important for us to also recognize that why did they deny certain things? 285 00:20:53,552 --> 00:20:58,090 It's because they were trying to protect other things. 286 00:20:58,090 --> 00:21:05,297 And maybe to protect the immutability of God or the fact that God doesn't suffer or things 287 00:21:05,297 --> 00:21:06,298 like that. 288 00:21:06,298 --> 00:21:15,207 So a lot of times, and someone once put it this way, I can't recall who, but the heresy 289 00:21:15,207 --> 00:21:21,913 is sort of overemphasized to, or the emphasis of one tooth at the expense of another tooth, 290 00:21:21,913 --> 00:21:26,151 something like that, which isn't bad. 291 00:21:26,151 --> 00:21:31,223 I think, I can't recall, when did the canon of scriptures, when were they actually put 292 00:21:31,223 --> 00:21:32,224 together? 293 00:21:32,224 --> 00:21:34,726 Is that third century? 294 00:21:34,726 --> 00:21:36,261 That is an excellent question. 295 00:21:36,261 --> 00:21:37,262 We need... 296 00:21:37,262 --> 00:21:39,298 Because I'm not sure that you have... 297 00:21:39,298 --> 00:21:40,299 Ben would know. 298 00:21:40,299 --> 00:21:41,300 He would. 299 00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:42,301 Yeah, I know he would. 300 00:21:42,301 --> 00:21:45,304 We're all lost here without him. 301 00:21:45,304 --> 00:21:46,305 Yeah, exactly. 302 00:21:46,305 --> 00:21:52,511 You know, because I'm not quite sure exactly when that... 303 00:21:52,511 --> 00:21:57,649 But even aside from that, I think some of these questions simply began arising though 304 00:21:57,649 --> 00:22:03,889 when the Christians moved out from a Judeo-Christian context to a Roman Greco or Greco-Roman context. 305 00:22:03,889 --> 00:22:04,890 Right. 306 00:22:04,890 --> 00:22:12,964 And so initially they were seen as a Jewish sect and Rome kind of gave them benefit of 307 00:22:12,964 --> 00:22:13,965 the doubt of... 308 00:22:13,965 --> 00:22:17,502 They had granted Judaism an exemption for being monotheistic. 309 00:22:17,502 --> 00:22:20,272 They don't have to worship the Roman deities. 310 00:22:20,272 --> 00:22:21,573 And Christians kind of came out of that. 311 00:22:21,573 --> 00:22:24,843 But once Christians... 312 00:22:24,843 --> 00:22:28,647 Once I was observed, hey, wait a minute, you're Christians, you're worshiping Jesus and you're 313 00:22:28,647 --> 00:22:32,384 worshiping the Father, that's two. 314 00:22:32,384 --> 00:22:36,455 And if you can worship two, why can't you worship all these others? 315 00:22:36,455 --> 00:22:43,628 So you have some Christians early on then are trying to emphasize their monotheistic 316 00:22:43,628 --> 00:22:44,629 credentials. 317 00:22:44,629 --> 00:22:45,630 Oh, right. 318 00:22:45,630 --> 00:22:54,206 And in trying to emphasize their monotheistic credentials that we only worship one God, 319 00:22:54,206 --> 00:22:59,444 they have to figure out what we do with Jesus and say, it may last on that passage, the 320 00:22:59,444 --> 00:23:00,779 Father is greater than I. 321 00:23:00,779 --> 00:23:06,852 So you will have like the Ebionites, you will see Jesus as, okay, he's a human prophet. 322 00:23:06,852 --> 00:23:12,891 Or you might have the Paul of Samosata, Monarchianism, and say, oh, Jesus was a man who was 323 00:23:12,891 --> 00:23:16,294 empowered by the Holy Spirit. 324 00:23:16,294 --> 00:23:22,834 Or you would by the second, third century, get someone like Sibelius who would say, well, 325 00:23:22,834 --> 00:23:28,874 you have only one God, but he appeared as three persons, much like an actor, plays three 326 00:23:28,874 --> 00:23:31,977 different characters in a play. 327 00:23:31,977 --> 00:23:37,649 And each of those answers was aimed at protecting monotheism. 328 00:23:37,649 --> 00:23:44,623 Now they did it at the expense of Jesus' deity. 329 00:23:44,623 --> 00:23:54,266 And so now then, and Arius would be the premier example of that. 330 00:23:54,266 --> 00:24:00,338 And so now then you're going to have this other thing, wait a minute, whatever else 331 00:24:00,338 --> 00:24:04,309 we do, we can't compromise the deity of Jesus. 332 00:24:04,309 --> 00:24:05,510 Sure. 333 00:24:05,510 --> 00:24:10,615 And so when you get Nicaea, I think what happens is, and he says, it's sort of my take on it 334 00:24:10,615 --> 00:24:22,194 is Christians, I'll put it this way, wound up because they refused to compromise on the 335 00:24:22,194 --> 00:24:25,630 Christological principle, the Father are one. 336 00:24:25,630 --> 00:24:29,067 They wound up redefining monotheism. 337 00:24:29,067 --> 00:24:35,974 And what I mean by that is they redefined it in a way that the other two monotheistic 338 00:24:35,974 --> 00:24:38,844 religions of the world don't recognize. 339 00:24:38,844 --> 00:24:42,914 You know, Judaism and Islam. 340 00:24:42,914 --> 00:24:48,553 I'm not saying that the Christians had a different view of monotheism than the Bible does, but 341 00:24:48,553 --> 00:24:54,826 in terms of how it was understood in the wider Greco-Roman world, they kind of redefined 342 00:24:54,826 --> 00:24:55,827 it. 343 00:24:55,827 --> 00:25:00,165 It means three persons and one God. 344 00:25:00,165 --> 00:25:08,106 So that context is important because, and I never thought about this until I read that 345 00:25:08,106 --> 00:25:11,643 book by Jürgen Moltmann, The Crucified God. 346 00:25:11,643 --> 00:25:16,214 On the pages of the New Testament, there appears to be no conflict between worshiping the Father 347 00:25:16,214 --> 00:25:20,852 and worshiping Jesus, even though they all came out of Judaism. 348 00:25:20,852 --> 00:25:22,754 Strong monotheistic confession. 349 00:25:22,754 --> 00:25:26,358 The Lord our God is one. 350 00:25:26,358 --> 00:25:31,329 It's only when they go into the Greco-Roman world, it becomes an issue. 351 00:25:31,329 --> 00:25:35,367 This kind of all makes me think about how the depth and the length of Scripture and 352 00:25:35,367 --> 00:25:42,307 the fact that it deals with divine things of God that we're kind of always in this process 353 00:25:42,307 --> 00:25:43,875 of how do you talk about it? 354 00:25:43,875 --> 00:25:45,844 How do you talk about the faith? 355 00:25:45,844 --> 00:25:46,845 How do you do that? 356 00:25:46,845 --> 00:25:53,852 So we come to the creeds as here's a way we can all agree on talking about it and here's 357 00:25:53,852 --> 00:25:58,056 our attempt at a clear confession of what Scripture says. 358 00:25:58,056 --> 00:26:04,930 We've done that for 1500 plus years and then now you kind of get into Christians who want 359 00:26:04,930 --> 00:26:08,567 to say no creeds but the Bible or some take on that. 360 00:26:08,567 --> 00:26:14,306 Like there's this maybe desire to step away from all the formal things of the church and 361 00:26:14,306 --> 00:26:18,843 hold up the Bible and say this is our creed. 362 00:26:18,843 --> 00:26:26,017 There seems to be some danger in that potentially of stepping back into the more confused. 363 00:26:26,017 --> 00:26:27,018 I don't know. 364 00:26:27,018 --> 00:26:30,021 I see what you're saying. 365 00:26:30,021 --> 00:26:37,228 I wouldn't want to just abandon 2000 years of Christian conversation and thought because 366 00:26:37,228 --> 00:26:42,567 again we could say well they wrote the Nicene Creed but it's not in the Bible so they did 367 00:26:42,567 --> 00:26:53,211 so in error which is beyond arrogant but again a little disrespectful especially in our... 368 00:26:53,211 --> 00:26:58,183 With some of the historical context where again we're quick to flip the heretic switch 369 00:26:58,183 --> 00:27:01,886 right but again like you said it's one of these moments and it's not to justify their 370 00:27:01,886 --> 00:27:05,924 outcome but their means they were... 371 00:27:05,924 --> 00:27:07,258 You could understand how they were getting there. 372 00:27:07,258 --> 00:27:10,996 They were trying to be faithful at least. 373 00:27:10,996 --> 00:27:14,566 Most of them weren't just erroneously looking at scripture like you know I wanted to see 374 00:27:14,566 --> 00:27:17,569 everybody in the world I'm going to come up with this heresy and just throw everybody 375 00:27:17,569 --> 00:27:18,970 off so they don't believe in Jesus. 376 00:27:18,970 --> 00:27:24,376 I'm not saying that never happened but a lot of the ones that we stress the ones that are 377 00:27:24,376 --> 00:27:29,614 close that mean something, mean something because they're close ish and they're part 378 00:27:29,614 --> 00:27:30,615 of the community. 379 00:27:30,615 --> 00:27:36,388 They're trying to have dialogue within the community that's why they're noted. 380 00:27:36,388 --> 00:27:43,128 And so in our context even before Nicaea before the legality of Christianity as recognition 381 00:27:43,128 --> 00:27:50,268 of people experience their faith in the body of Christ a little differently than we do 382 00:27:50,268 --> 00:27:53,772 and again not to say that of course there are persecuted Christians being persecuted 383 00:27:53,772 --> 00:27:56,941 in the world and I'm not you know denigrating what they're going through but us here in 384 00:27:56,941 --> 00:28:01,546 our modern context we don't really go through that as much as we try to... 385 00:28:01,546 --> 00:28:05,216 There are things that the church is being threatened by for sure in the modern world 386 00:28:05,216 --> 00:28:15,927 but not quite the same so again our conversations our arguments are different and our... 387 00:28:15,927 --> 00:28:22,434 I think and it was when you were talking about the political nature of the creeds in the 388 00:28:22,434 --> 00:28:29,741 Book of Concord where church and state are one in the Holy Roman Empire church and state 389 00:28:29,741 --> 00:28:35,780 are one post-reformation in Germany and then we come to America and we talked about this 390 00:28:35,780 --> 00:28:43,121 a little bit last time where church and state are deliberately separated and so just for 391 00:28:43,121 --> 00:28:48,993 a moment just makes you look pause and think about it our relationship to this as opposed 392 00:28:48,993 --> 00:28:55,767 to the writers and then just kind of even back to the creeds have we... 393 00:28:55,767 --> 00:29:02,707 Is there at least on some level a disconnect not in meaning but at least in relationship 394 00:29:02,707 --> 00:29:04,008 to the text? 395 00:29:04,008 --> 00:29:08,046 Does that make sense? 396 00:29:08,046 --> 00:29:20,859 I'm trying to process again what they are and what they are and what they came from 397 00:29:20,859 --> 00:29:22,794 and what they are and how we receive them today. 398 00:29:22,794 --> 00:29:29,734 Yeah I'm going to go back to something you said earlier that I think is helpful is I 399 00:29:29,734 --> 00:29:35,006 mean the creeds kind of provide a map to the scriptures. 400 00:29:35,006 --> 00:29:41,579 My mom for example you know lifelong Lutheran reads her Bible every day there will still 401 00:29:41,579 --> 00:29:47,652 be times when she will come and say again don't call me this but she'll say, Chuckie 402 00:29:47,652 --> 00:29:52,290 what should I be looking for when I read the Bible? 403 00:29:52,290 --> 00:30:00,131 And you know so the creeds in some ways are the church's response to that question. 404 00:30:00,131 --> 00:30:03,301 It's like the must see sites of the Bible. 405 00:30:03,301 --> 00:30:08,907 That when you go through the Bible look for this and this and this. 406 00:30:08,907 --> 00:30:15,113 You could say the main highways or you could say the five star sites that you must see 407 00:30:15,113 --> 00:30:24,222 that you anchor yourself to or at least the narrative elements that define the Christian 408 00:30:24,222 --> 00:30:31,095 story kind of thing. 409 00:30:31,095 --> 00:30:35,233 One of the things I do like what the Book of Concord says is you know while scripture 410 00:30:35,233 --> 00:30:41,906 is the source the confessions are witnesses and I often think of them as corroborating 411 00:30:41,906 --> 00:30:44,809 witnesses. 412 00:30:44,809 --> 00:30:53,985 So much as you would have in say in a court of law a witness called to the stand to either 413 00:30:53,985 --> 00:30:59,023 corroborate or not corroborate the defendant. 414 00:30:59,023 --> 00:31:10,368 So when I read scripture and then I draw a conclusion it's at least helpful to say has 415 00:31:10,368 --> 00:31:14,305 anyone else drawn this conclusion? 416 00:31:14,305 --> 00:31:24,315 And there you might listen to the witness of the church for 1500 years and if the church 417 00:31:24,315 --> 00:31:31,522 says yeah that's you know Jesus is for God or however you want to put it. 418 00:31:31,522 --> 00:31:33,658 That corroborates my reading of scripture. 419 00:31:33,658 --> 00:31:38,496 I know that I stand within this tradition but if I'm the first one to come up with this 420 00:31:38,496 --> 00:31:48,306 interpretation no one else has then I might pause and maybe think about rereading it. 421 00:31:48,306 --> 00:31:55,380 So in that sense I think it's kind of helpful perhaps even comforting to know that you sort 422 00:31:55,380 --> 00:32:02,387 of your reading is congruent with those who've gone before you and as you mentioned earlier 423 00:32:02,387 --> 00:32:12,163 I think it is kind of arrogant to just disregard all that but then again we're individualistic 424 00:32:12,163 --> 00:32:13,164 Americans. 425 00:32:13,164 --> 00:32:16,134 Exactly that's always the challenge. 426 00:32:16,134 --> 00:32:17,135 It's the context. 427 00:32:17,135 --> 00:32:21,272 As opposed to the you know an individual reigns supreme over the community. 428 00:32:21,272 --> 00:32:25,743 Well I think to your last comment though we have a different relationship with the creeds 429 00:32:25,743 --> 00:32:31,749 and the confessions than those for whom it was a kind of a legal confession and a theological 430 00:32:31,749 --> 00:32:36,621 confession and maybe that's the reason why also besides being individualistic Americans 431 00:32:36,621 --> 00:32:42,927 it's so easy for us to jettison is that it has I don't know like less direct impact or 432 00:32:42,927 --> 00:32:44,395 control over our lives. 433 00:32:44,395 --> 00:32:46,497 So it would be helpful for the government kind of legislation. 434 00:32:46,497 --> 00:32:50,535 I don't think that would be helpful either but I do think it's interesting we've talked 435 00:32:50,535 --> 00:32:54,605 about this a couple of times about Lutherans coming to America that this identity piece 436 00:32:54,605 --> 00:33:00,845 of what does it mean to be Lutheran or to be Christian apart from the government and 437 00:33:00,845 --> 00:33:06,150 it seems like that's been a struggle throughout our history when you don't have that structure 438 00:33:06,150 --> 00:33:14,258 behind you and that's been part of your identity in the past that people seem to struggle on 439 00:33:14,258 --> 00:33:19,564 how do we do this from the ecumenical movements to the very confessional movements like I 440 00:33:19,564 --> 00:33:22,033 don't know tried a lot of different options. 441 00:33:22,033 --> 00:33:30,141 Now you're broaching a topic and get me on a soapbox real quickly. 442 00:33:30,141 --> 00:33:35,213 Well because even in America you know why do people go the direction I have no creed 443 00:33:35,213 --> 00:33:43,488 but the Bible or things like that well oftentimes it's because they had been persecuted in Europe 444 00:33:43,488 --> 00:33:49,527 by the clergy by the church in addition to the state and so it's like fine we're done 445 00:33:49,527 --> 00:33:58,536 with all that and so that kind of gives rise to some of it but where I was going with the 446 00:33:58,536 --> 00:34:09,781 soapbox is and I think Kolb would agree with me on this it's easy to long for maybe the 447 00:34:09,781 --> 00:34:17,989 era of Christendom when you had the power of the state supporting the church assuming 448 00:34:17,989 --> 00:34:20,992 you want the state's. 449 00:34:20,992 --> 00:34:23,327 As long as the state was on your side. 450 00:34:23,327 --> 00:34:28,466 Right right and maybe you know it's a wistful along you know I can 451 00:34:28,466 --> 00:34:36,307 think if we only had power coercive power to as opposed to saying well no our power 452 00:34:36,307 --> 00:34:40,945 is simply the power of the word and we give witness to that word and let the word take 453 00:34:40,945 --> 00:34:44,816 care of itself. 454 00:34:44,816 --> 00:34:53,624 And I think that's becoming increasingly a major struggle for us. 455 00:34:53,624 --> 00:34:57,028 It'd be a lot easier if we could just legislate. 456 00:34:57,028 --> 00:35:04,635 And I was talking to a friend who was asking me about just the or did this come up in Bible 457 00:35:04,635 --> 00:35:12,643 study now conversations are being confused but they asked a question along these lines 458 00:35:12,643 --> 00:35:17,448 and about authority and things like that and I got into the emperor sacking Rome. 459 00:35:17,448 --> 00:35:22,220 Oh yeah I was talking about they're asking me about theological languages for study and 460 00:35:22,220 --> 00:35:26,524 I was like well French can be one and they were like why French because there's people 461 00:35:26,524 --> 00:35:31,496 don't know about the papacy and having on France because they just assume it's always 462 00:35:31,496 --> 00:35:37,301 in Rome I was like well there have been times where there have been multiple Popes but there 463 00:35:37,301 --> 00:35:43,174 have also been times where you have a pope who overstepped his earthly authority and 464 00:35:43,174 --> 00:35:47,044 emperors have gone and sacked Roman and straightened him out and so it's again it's one of these 465 00:35:47,044 --> 00:35:55,286 things like again where you say it we think it'd be nice to have that relationship except 466 00:35:55,286 --> 00:36:00,391 in an earthly sense one of those authorities has if not more authority at least a stronger 467 00:36:00,391 --> 00:36:07,965 arm to flex the authority perceived or not over the other and so it's again it and I 468 00:36:07,965 --> 00:36:13,704 mean for us again I don't know what it's like to have a state church. 469 00:36:13,704 --> 00:36:21,212 I have friends from Europe well they're they're related to us in one way or the other the 470 00:36:21,212 --> 00:36:25,950 LCMS kind of confessionally at the very least and so they don't seem too fond of the state 471 00:36:25,950 --> 00:36:31,189 church for kind of some of those reasons where the the state says well you can no longer 472 00:36:31,189 --> 00:36:36,427 preach that and the thing that they're saying you can no longer preach might be essential 473 00:36:36,427 --> 00:36:43,167 to the truth of God's Word but then you go with what you know and you stick to your faith 474 00:36:43,167 --> 00:36:49,373 and then you have this other side of the the coin yeah so it's just it is one of those 475 00:36:49,373 --> 00:36:55,213 interesting things again where we the idea again if you're listening and then maybe we 476 00:36:55,213 --> 00:37:01,052 could talk about just some kind of contextual and content things that are interesting about 477 00:37:01,052 --> 00:37:09,393 what each says about God is is that 478 00:37:09,393 --> 00:37:15,566 Scripture talks about unity in the body of Christ and we confess by faith one holy Christian 479 00:37:15,566 --> 00:37:22,139 Catholic whatever apostolic faith one church one faith one Lord one baptism. Ephesians 2 480 00:37:22,139 --> 00:37:31,148 8 and so that again as we search for a commonality at the very least beyond like day-to-day church 481 00:37:31,148 --> 00:37:37,688 practice we have a tie that binds us all together in the creeds beyond Scripture of course we 482 00:37:37,688 --> 00:37:43,527 have Scripture hopefully but the creeds give it the secondary tie that is very essential 483 00:37:43,527 --> 00:37:48,366 I it just seems that way because again these these questions still occur because Jehovah's 484 00:37:48,366 --> 00:37:54,005 Witnesses come knocking on people's door Mormons come knocking on people's door we have this 485 00:37:54,005 --> 00:38:00,544 desire especially in our context where God is the it's the will of God that all men be 486 00:38:00,544 --> 00:38:05,316 saved well if that's the case then why can't my non-believing Christian I mean my non-believing 487 00:38:05,316 --> 00:38:11,055 neighbor who's a pretty good guy be saved or my barber that's a Muslim why don't we 488 00:38:11,055 --> 00:38:15,059 say he's saved he believes in God right isn't there just one God no matter what we call 489 00:38:15,059 --> 00:38:20,064 him and so again having this way of talking about God and if you look in the creeds and 490 00:38:20,064 --> 00:38:26,704 then you look at Islam we're talking about very different gods and that's the essential 491 00:38:26,704 --> 00:38:36,747 piece to it and so I yeah I. In my aging age not in my old age I'm not a curmudgeon yet 492 00:38:36,747 --> 00:38:42,953 when it's always these these interesting conversations where well we talked about this last time 493 00:38:42,953 --> 00:38:47,391 as well where where we have this desire to talk about what we're not as opposed to what 494 00:38:47,391 --> 00:38:52,363 I am and the creeds give you a very articulate way of if somebody says well you're a Christian 495 00:38:52,363 --> 00:38:55,700 what does that mean? I used to always joke around with people they're like if we do like 496 00:38:55,700 --> 00:39:00,805 door-to-door evangelism and I knock on somebody's door and they ask me what I believe what am 497 00:39:00,805 --> 00:39:06,977 I supposed to say I was like well just recite the Apostles Creed you could I mean it I don't 498 00:39:06,977 --> 00:39:12,616 know how well it would go over conversationally. But that's kind of robotically. Exactly like 499 00:39:12,616 --> 00:39:17,154 just know it just right from the page and read it but it but my point. Is is that if 500 00:39:17,154 --> 00:39:23,060 you're doing evangelism and you're not talking about God in that way in that sense. You you're 501 00:39:23,060 --> 00:39:28,132 not talking about God. Well I think that question may show at least to my cynical side why 502 00:39:28,132 --> 00:39:33,170 power is so appealing because the more power you have the less hard you actually have to 503 00:39:33,170 --> 00:39:38,008 work because if you can just force everyone to say hey I'm a Christian then you don't 504 00:39:38,008 --> 00:39:42,146 have to do any of that evangelizing or go tell anybody or confess anything because we've 505 00:39:42,146 --> 00:39:50,354 just made it that way. I think that's partly why I have a special affinity for things like 506 00:39:50,354 --> 00:40:00,030 the Apostles Creed and the catechisms because they were not produced by an official council 507 00:40:00,030 --> 00:40:05,936 right they were not produced by an official assembly whether it was Nicaea or whether 508 00:40:05,936 --> 00:40:16,981 it was Augsburg instead those texts had you know simply were widely used and others said 509 00:40:16,981 --> 00:40:21,285 hey we're going to start using these and I'll start using these and they kind of settled 510 00:40:21,285 --> 00:40:30,828 in having sort of expressed the faith of the Christians and also nourished that faith and 511 00:40:30,828 --> 00:40:39,503 so there's something that goes to more the focus on persuasiveness witness however you 512 00:40:39,503 --> 00:40:51,315 wish to put it. Yeah right. Go ahead. Because I know we're running short on time a little 513 00:40:51,315 --> 00:40:59,290 bit. So yeah so the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creeds follow that Trinitarian pattern creation 514 00:40:59,290 --> 00:41:06,897 redemption sanctification creation to the second coming of Christ the Athanasian Creed 515 00:41:06,897 --> 00:41:15,806 doesn't do that but what it does do is it provides a handy summary of the fourth and 516 00:41:15,806 --> 00:41:21,912 fifth century and it follows the kind of pattern of the Te Deum Laudamus so the first half the 517 00:41:21,912 --> 00:41:28,853 Athanasian Creed focuses on the Trinity which would be the Nicene Creed comes from Nicene 518 00:41:28,853 --> 00:41:35,226 Constantinople the second half focuses on the fifth century which would be the council 519 00:41:35,226 --> 00:41:42,066 Ephesus and Chalcedon so the first half focuses on Jesus relationship to the Father 520 00:41:42,066 --> 00:41:46,570 and the Spirit the second half of the Athanasian Creed focuses on Jesus relationship to his 521 00:41:46,570 --> 00:41:54,979 humanity. And there is a sense I forget where I read this but I tend to agree with it that 522 00:41:54,979 --> 00:42:04,889 if the fourth and fifth centuries were eras of great theological energy in producing the 523 00:42:04,889 --> 00:42:10,628 Nicene Creed and Chalcedon there comes a point where you almost have to let the dust 524 00:42:10,628 --> 00:42:16,934 settle and see what what do you have now yeah and the Athanasian Creed kind of does that 525 00:42:16,934 --> 00:42:23,107 and sort of consolidates and says here's here's what we have. It doesn't really add anything 526 00:42:23,107 --> 00:42:29,980 new but it does provide a way of speaking so it's and it's not that I don't mean to 527 00:42:29,980 --> 00:42:38,422 say it's not profound but it's not that complicated. So for example in the Trinity all this is 528 00:42:38,422 --> 00:42:43,093 is however you talk about God don't talk about God as if there are three gods mm-hmm I don't 529 00:42:43,093 --> 00:42:50,534 talk about God as if there's only one person okay right those are the boundaries. You have 530 00:42:50,534 --> 00:42:54,939 a similar thing I think happening even in the Reformation the the Augsburg Confession 531 00:42:54,939 --> 00:43:01,045 and Catechisms I mean this is like I don't know if I want to say revolutionary stuff but 532 00:43:01,045 --> 00:43:08,786 this is new this is creative this is you know get the Formula of Concord that's more like okay 533 00:43:08,786 --> 00:43:13,691 we're gonna consolidate and you know that the dust settle and sort of bring it all together 534 00:43:13,691 --> 00:43:19,463 it's not necessarily as I'm not saying that there aren't some new insights in there of 535 00:43:19,463 --> 00:43:28,105 course but it's it's not the same as that period of creativity and energy of the initial 536 00:43:28,105 --> 00:43:34,712 Reformation. I was in that you made that conclusion or that not conclusion but at least that correlation 537 00:43:34,712 --> 00:43:41,585 and I was as you were talking about the Athanasian Creed the formula popped into my mind it were 538 00:43:41,585 --> 00:43:47,024 again like you said there's insights in there because again there's there's clarity being 539 00:43:47,024 --> 00:43:52,496 provided. Clarity is very good that's a good word for it. Between the writing of the Augsburg 540 00:43:52,496 --> 00:43:57,034 Confession and Apology and then and then the Epitome and Solid Declaration to where again 541 00:43:57,034 --> 00:44:03,107 you some of the articles in there you read it's like I understand that this article needed 542 00:44:03,107 --> 00:44:11,749 to be included because again there was controversy around it. But man I can't get no I was gonna 543 00:44:11,749 --> 00:44:15,853 be facetious I can't get that those minutes back in my life but yeah it's just not like 544 00:44:15,853 --> 00:44:21,058 oh man it's crazy again it there are moments in there where I think are pretty good obviously 545 00:44:21,058 --> 00:44:25,429 but but like but yeah when you're reading even beyond the Apology certain things again 546 00:44:25,429 --> 00:44:32,503 pop and they're profound but it's it in of itself isn't quite the Augsburg Confession 547 00:44:32,503 --> 00:44:37,141 where they were like well what do you believe and they come up with these articles of faith 548 00:44:37,141 --> 00:44:42,079 and they're bold and they're concise. Holy Spirit. And they they hit you 549 00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:47,351 right in the mouth and then the Apology kind of hits you in the mouth a few more times. 550 00:44:47,351 --> 00:44:51,388 And then just saying if you didn't get it the first exactly and like you said the Catechism 551 00:44:51,388 --> 00:44:57,428 same kind of way where they're they're fresh. Yes that's it I like that word a lot 552 00:44:57,428 --> 00:45:02,900 they are fresh. And then so people ask all the time why don't we say the Athanasian Creed 553 00:45:02,900 --> 00:45:07,504 more? You don't want to prioritize things it's like but it's like you said it's not. Really 554 00:45:07,504 --> 00:45:12,176 really long. That's what well that's typically right because because because I want to preach 555 00:45:12,176 --> 00:45:19,183 longer than we read the Creed no but but again either the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed 556 00:45:19,183 --> 00:45:26,890 pick which one you want they're doing something in the daily life of a Christian that the 557 00:45:26,890 --> 00:45:32,896 Athanasian Creed simply can't because it's not its intention right or design. All right 558 00:45:32,896 --> 00:45:38,268 it's just kind of this reaffirmation of what's been said and again provide some clarity around 559 00:45:38,268 --> 00:45:44,675 a particular issue. You know maybe what would work here I'm you're prompting some thoughts 560 00:45:44,675 --> 00:45:50,714 here maybe you know remember Fruity's distinction of primary and secondary discourse? Yeah. Primary 561 00:45:50,714 --> 00:45:57,654 discourse being the language of prayer confession, preaching. I wonder if the Catechisms always 562 00:45:57,654 --> 00:46:04,228 for confession Nicene Creed Baptist Apostles Creed all fit in that category yeah because 563 00:46:04,228 --> 00:46:11,535 you're tying them to baptism and you're preaching whereas maybe the Athanasian Creed and a Formula 564 00:46:11,535 --> 00:46:18,475 a little bit more in the secondary discourse. That it provides explanations that are to 565 00:46:18,475 --> 00:46:26,817 protect the primary it's a dissertation idea for somebody if you're listening or at least 566 00:46:26,817 --> 00:46:32,556 the beginning maybe I don't know. But no your words kind of prompted that thought to jump 567 00:46:32,556 --> 00:46:38,128 in. You think we should get to our closing question we didn't get to ask last week about 568 00:46:38,128 --> 00:46:45,903 advice for oh I was considering. Yeah, of course and so first and foremost thank you Tom for 569 00:46:45,903 --> 00:46:49,973 for watching. I'm gonna try to keep you on track. No, well and it's again it's I hope if 570 00:46:49,973 --> 00:46:55,779 you're listening with all things where where we get into conversations obvious like if 571 00:46:55,779 --> 00:46:58,248 you're if you're listening and you're like well you guys didn't talk about the Small 572 00:46:58,248 --> 00:47:03,554 Catechism and Martin Luther's explanation. We're getting to the Catechisms and we're 573 00:47:03,554 --> 00:47:09,326 trying to do each part of the Book of Concord in one or two sessions so you're not listening. 574 00:47:09,326 --> 00:47:15,632 To wet your appetite to make you want to come and learn more. Yes, I think what at the very 575 00:47:15,632 --> 00:47:20,571 least what one would get a taste of is these are fun conversations take place at seminary. 576 00:47:20,571 --> 00:47:26,810 Exactly. Okay this is why we're here and this is what we enjoy and hopefully this is what 577 00:47:26,810 --> 00:47:32,449 you will do in the ministry. Right when if we were to to do a study of the Book of Concord 578 00:47:32,449 --> 00:47:39,723 in depth we would we would be doing this series for a very long time. I wouldn't be able to 579 00:47:39,723 --> 00:47:47,030 plan it out and create an end date it could take years. But but something else as we're 580 00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:51,902 this this obviously I'm hoping this won't be the only time we have you on for Under 581 00:47:51,902 --> 00:47:57,875 the Fig Tree but one thing we'd like to ask our guests to do is if there was one piece 582 00:47:57,875 --> 00:48:02,746 of advice that you had for any of our listeners who are considering church work as a career 583 00:48:02,746 --> 00:48:13,323 what would that one piece of advice be. One piece of advice would have been some other 584 00:48:13,323 --> 00:48:23,934 pieces of advice it's hard to reduce it to to one. And again I don't know if this is piece 585 00:48:23,934 --> 00:48:32,676 of advice but develop a passion for theology. I mean most of us we're driven by it and are 586 00:48:32,676 --> 00:48:38,582 fascinated by the questions and the answers provided by scripture and witness to in the 587 00:48:38,582 --> 00:48:50,027 church. We love theological conversation you know to be theologically driven interested 588 00:48:50,027 --> 00:48:58,902 in talking about God and for God I suppose. That sounds like a great piece of advice to 589 00:48:58,902 --> 00:49:04,508 me. It is and it's like you said something that you get more of while you're here is 590 00:49:04,508 --> 00:49:09,613 those conversations and ways to refine both the questions and the answers. Some people 591 00:49:09,613 --> 00:49:14,851 love talking about baseball and box scores. And yeah. You know I love talking about the 592 00:49:14,851 --> 00:49:23,794 Packers but I really like talking about theology. Yeah. Well yeah since we're looking at time 593 00:49:23,794 --> 00:49:27,731 it's one of those things whenever somebody asks a question I'm like well how much time 594 00:49:27,731 --> 00:49:32,669 do you have and what type of answer do you want? I can give you a three-minute answer 595 00:49:32,669 --> 00:49:38,575 especially if they because like they're there there's also like that passion for theology 596 00:49:38,575 --> 00:49:46,316 like everything is important but you're gonna gravitate towards a thing or a few things. 597 00:49:46,316 --> 00:49:50,654 And just your personality and things like that so when people ask me questions around 598 00:49:50,654 --> 00:49:55,525 creation it's like well which answer do you want? Yeah right. Do you want do you got time 599 00:49:55,525 --> 00:50:00,364 for me to actually tell you what I think and believe and get you to think by the end of 600 00:50:00,364 --> 00:50:05,035 this you'll love creation the way I do or I won't let you go or do you just want a general 601 00:50:05,035 --> 00:50:10,474 answer. But that's kind of the point like I said scripture is is deep and there's just 602 00:50:10,474 --> 00:50:15,645 so much that God has given to us through it that. Yeah, I think it's all driven by love 603 00:50:15,645 --> 00:50:21,618 for Jesus. Yeah. And a desire to learn. Of course. To know him and about him and so forth yeah but 604 00:50:21,618 --> 00:50:26,923 and then this is what's great about being here at the seminary. Yeah. What was eye-opening 605 00:50:26,923 --> 00:50:32,396 to me why things are the way they are why we talk the way that we do is you start to 606 00:50:32,396 --> 00:50:37,901 see what kinds of events or questions prompted things like the creeds to be into existence. 607 00:50:37,901 --> 00:50:45,308 Yeah, so it's not just about theology in a vacuum. No. It's always in conversation with 608 00:50:45,308 --> 00:50:50,180 the thought world in which we live the culture within which we live. Which is something I 609 00:50:50,180 --> 00:50:55,585 always deeply appreciated about my time here well in the Master Divinity program and of 610 00:50:55,585 --> 00:51:04,828 course in advanced studies and through work but yeah I believe we have a top-notch seminary 611 00:51:04,828 --> 00:51:15,305 for absolutely teaching people the truth about God. Well thank you for tuning in today if 612 00:51:15,305 --> 00:51:20,977 if you're listening and there are certain questions that come about please email them 613 00:51:20,977 --> 00:51:27,851 or type them in the comments. If there's I would say again we're not doing like a deep 614 00:51:27,851 --> 00:51:32,622 dive into the the content of everything that the Book of Concord has to say it's just kind 615 00:51:32,622 --> 00:51:37,928 of introduction bring your Book of Concord along with you if you have and then again 616 00:51:37,928 --> 00:51:41,965 make sure to read it for yourself because some of the questions that you might have 617 00:51:41,965 --> 00:51:47,104 I would say are probably going to be answered in the book itself as opposed to just kind 618 00:51:47,104 --> 00:51:51,141 of this general talking about it and then talking about I think some practical applications 619 00:51:51,141 --> 00:51:57,547 conversations and and challenges of how these things come about. And as always if you are 620 00:51:57,547 --> 00:52:01,885 thinking about becoming a church worker don't think too long make sure to fill out a request 621 00:52:01,885 --> 00:52:06,456 for information so that we can get in contact with you and help you discern that process 622 00:52:06,456 --> 00:52:10,861 it's not something that you necessarily have to do by yourself. We're happy to do it along 623 00:52:10,861 --> 00:52:15,765 with you. And if you are looking at somebody in your church and you're like man they would 624 00:52:15,765 --> 00:52:19,970 make a good pastor, deaconess, teacher someday don't think about it make sure you tell them 625 00:52:19,970 --> 00:52:24,708 because you could be that person that encourages them to take the next steps to pursue it. Thank 626 00:52:24,708 --> 00:52:47,030 you for joining us today and we'll see you next time Under the Fig Tree. Take care.