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Welcome to Under the Fig Tree podcast.

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In today's episode, hosts Reverend Micah Glenn and Reverend Dr. Ben Haupt talk theology and

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life as they meditate under the fig tree.

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What's up, what's up, what's up?

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Welcome back to another episode of Under the Fig Tree.

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Today no Ben, but I'm joined by Reverend Tom Schlund, one of our admissions officers who

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you all have met in a previous episode and if you didn't watch the episode, him and Reverend

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Jesse Kueker were on together, but we're also joined by Dr. Charles Arand.

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How are you today?

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I'm well, thanks for having me on.

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Yeah, it's a joy.

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And I usually, Tom, how are you as well?

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I'm doing great too.

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I've gotten promoted up off the couch into the chair.

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So I just quick set things, I argued for four chairs like this, but the couch has like a,

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you know, it's a little different thing and everyone's like, oh, office are different

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part of the set.

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Space for the set.

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It's fine.

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But these chairs, I've sat there, the chairs are more comfortable.

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I'll just be honest.

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But Dr. Charles Aron is, I'm not going to continue to call you Dr. Charles Arand.

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That's fine.

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It's fine.

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But anyway, so, and this is good for here is at one point when we graduated, every professor

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was like, when you graduate, I get my first name back in our relationship.

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But once I enrolled into advanced studies, in my mind, it just goes back.

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With the exception of Dr. Kolb, one day he said, just call me Bob.

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I was like, I don't think I can Dr. Kolb.

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But I had that experience with an Old Testament prof, Horace Hummel.

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Sure.

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And if anyone knew him or had him, you know, he could put the fear into you, especially

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with regard to the Old Testament.

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And I remember the first time he said, call me Horace.

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It's like, no, I can't do that.

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Well, my dad was a Marine and a drill instructor.

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So for me, it's just, until I was 11, I lived on a military base.

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It's just first culture.

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Like it's sir, ma'am, that's language.

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And so whenever I'm speaking to even a young woman, I'll say ma'am.

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And I'm like, ma'am makes me sound old.

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I'm like, well, I guess, but I'm just showing, you know, this is respect for me to you.

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Well, Dr. Arand, do you teach systematics at the seminary, which is like our fancy academic

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way of saying the doctrine, the teachings of the church.

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Yes.

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Another way of putting it is you get the big picture.

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You see how everything fits together.

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You see how the story of the entire story of God and his creation fit together.

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One of the ways I've thought about it is someone who does exegesis or here at the seminary,

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I tend to think of exegesis as a little bit more like if you're walking up a mountain,

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you're stopping to look at every flower, every petal, every detail along the way.

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Systematician is one who climbs and then on top of the mountain stands and looks at the

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entire landscape.

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And you see how the plains move into the foothills, how the foothills move into the mountains,

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that kind of big picture.

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Yeah, I like that.

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That's a great image to think about as you think about how everything is organized together.

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Even in that same illustration, there's a way of the historians are the ones who tell

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the story of the person climbing the mountain and the practical guys are the ones that tell

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you the tools you need to get up.

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Oh, nice.

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I like how you're running with that image.

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Got it all fit together.

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We try, especially for our heroes who are thinking about these things to show why do

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we have practical theology, historical theology, systematic theology, doctrinal, I mean, and

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biblical theology.

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And then once you get to advanced studies, PhD work and beyond, you begin to specialize.

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But in our Master of Divinity program, and even in all of our programs that lead to ordination

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or deaconess certification, you have to learn a little bit of all of them because they all

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work together so that you can do ministry.

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So when somebody says, well, why do we do this thing in the church this way?

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And if there's a historical foundation that also is a biblical foundation for why we speak

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a certain way, why we confess our faith a certain way, all of that is...

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I think sometimes when students are coming in, they look at the curriculum and they feel

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like it seems like a lot, you know, that you've got to do three years of classes and you've

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got to take all of these classes from all these different parts.

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And once you start to see how they all fit together like that, it makes more and more

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sense how that's helpful.

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And it's not just a, here, let's give us the basics and go, but let's really form you for

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ministry.

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Well, at the risk of my analogy running amok.

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Because you've developed it very nicely.

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I might say a systematician also is attuned to the storm clouds on the horizon that are

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coming our way.

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And so one of the things that we must engage is what are those challenges that are coming

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down the road that we see in the culture around us or the questions or misunderstandings of

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the faith or what Christianity is and so forth.

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And you know, so it's not just like putting all the pieces of the puzzle together.

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It's also taking into account how are we going to address or deal with those weather patterns

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or storms coming in.

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And they seem to come in bigger and bigger waves as time moves forward.

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Well, one thing, so we have doctrinal theology, eventually in an episode we're going to be,

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excuse me, talking about the three ecumenical creeds.

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And both the Apostles and I would say namely in the Nicene Creed, well, probably both.

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I'm always up for correction.

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We have, well, we have these different articles.

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There's First Article, God the Father, which we typically would also say is creation.

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God the Son, Jesus, the atonement, redemption.

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And then we have the Spirit, Third Article, theology, sanctification, the church and the

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like.

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Well, I think maybe you're going to add to that or correct me.

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But I was going to say that you're kind of a creation First Article kind of specialist

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around here.

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Yeah, I suppose.

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You're absolutely right about the First, Second, and Third Article.

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And if you think about it, that kind of gives you the big picture in a snapshot sort of

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way from creation to the return of Christ.

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So that'd be an example of what we're talking about.

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Similarly, yeah, in the last couple of decades, I have focused on creation.

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And again, that's largely a response to a perceived need.

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So when I look at the 20th century, I can't say that there was a lot done on the doctrine

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of creation.

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Now that might surprise people because it's like, well, wait a minute, creation, evolution,

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that's a big, big deal.

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Well, yes, that got a lot of attention.

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And that deals with the question of origins.

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But it also tended to, because of the focus on that, it also tended to truncate or reduce

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the fullness of a doctrine of creation to the question of origins.

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And thus lose sight of things perhaps like providence or God's ongoing work in creation

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or our responsibility and stewardship of creation.

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And so there's just a lot more that the doctrine of creation entails.

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Right.

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Similarly, more recently, I've been thinking about that kind of language because I use

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it all the time.

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I've used it now for 40 years, First Article, Second Article, Third Article.

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I remember writing a CTCR document on spiritual gifts where I use that framework to think

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about the relationship of natural talents to spiritual gifts.

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More recently though, I've begun thinking that when we move in a linear way from First

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to Second or Third, we tend to leave the former one behind.

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And I think it's perhaps better to think of creation, think of the the articles as concentric

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circles.

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The outer circle is the doctrine of creation.

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It's the context and horizon of everything.

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The Second Article breaks in and is sort of the center circle within creation of Christ

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breaking in.

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And then the work of Christ begins to expand outward like ripples in a pond to the third

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article, which brings about the renewal of all creation.

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So the idea then is you cannot talk about Christ or the Holy Spirit, redemption or sanctification.

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You cannot talk about those apart from talking about creation.

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You're speaking my language in multiple ways.

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And I, for some reason, so I've said this a little bit on the podcast.

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And so I'm in the doctrinal theology department.

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Dr. Leo Sanchez is my supervisor.

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I took his class on pneumatology, Holy Spirit, Third Article stuff.

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And we're talking about the needs, the theological needs and context of our time.

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And just honestly, the Lutheran Church here and back to the Reformation, we're behind

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on our development of Third Article theology.

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Very far behind.

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Well, about 50 years ago, Pentecostalism arose and it exploded all over the place.

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We had a lot of reactionary stuff, but it was reacting to what they were saying, not

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necessarily developing what we were meant to say.

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And then Dr. Sanchez comes along and he engages with spirit Christology, which involves creation,

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specifically talking about the humanity of Jesus, that he became a creature.

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And so the topic of my dissertation, and I won't go into deep details, this is happy.

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We're happy to do it in the academy, but for our here, it's on charismatic gifts.

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And so I read that CTCR document and there are a lot of really beneficial things in there

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because that was one of those things.

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I was doing a research paper for that class with Dr. Sanchez on charismatic gifts.

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And I was reading these books and it would be like, here's a spiritual gift inventory.

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Are you good at math?

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Are you a accountant?

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Maybe you should be the treasure for your church.

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I was like, but what does that have to do with the spirit?

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Yeah.

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And for me, it was sort of like, some of the books I'd read were like someone who becomes

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a Christian, acquires the spiritual gift of music.

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And it was like, so they could not play chopsticks on the piano at home, but they come to church

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and now they can play Bach.

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And there was another example that I ran across was the story of one of the most successful

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car salesman in California who became a Christian and went on to become the most successful

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evangelist in California.

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And I'm like, so there's no connection here between his ability and his personality and

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social skills to deal with customers and selling cars and his personality and social skills

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in talking to people about the gospel.

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It's like, come on, you don't check your brain, you don't check your personality at the door

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of the church when you come into the church.

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It's something that the spirit can take and use in the service of the gospel.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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But exactly.

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The ability to speak in front of crowds itself isn't the spiritual gift, it's the spirit

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using a First Article gift for the advancement of the gospel.

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But if you have that skill already and you put it to the use of the gospel, then all

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of a sudden you can accomplish great things.

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Yeah, of course.

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Well, I mean, and this is where First Article theology comes in because, I mean, for a lot

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of good reasons, people, especially because in Lutheran theology, we focus a lot on the

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atonement, Jesus, Second Article.

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I mean, that's a lot of, I mean, most of the book of Concord, not exclusively is dealing

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with that because that was the question of the day, the need of the time, figuring out

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how do we give comfort to these poor peasants historically, assurance and comfort that in

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the midst of the plague and death and all this other stuff, poverty, that they can have

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comfort where comfort is meant to be given.

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Well, and what you're saying is really important.

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And I suppose this is where historical theology and systematic theology converge or come into

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play because unlike our day, I think most people in Luther's day lived with an ever

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present sense of death around them.

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You have high infant mortality rates.

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You have low life expectancy.

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You mentioned the plague.

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You have all these dangers.

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And so there's, I think, a lively sense that you need to prepare for death.

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Whereas we can pretty much put it out of our mind for most of our lives.

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I'm thinking more about it now that I turned 66 a couple of weeks ago, but for most of

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my life, it was like, oh, it's down in the future.

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I don't think when I get sick that, oh, I might die because I know I can get an antibiotic

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or, you know, there's that kind of stuff.

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So I think, you know, you're right on target there.

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And even the dying process, we kind of sanitize and put people in a hospital or in a hospice

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home.

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We let the funeral home take care of it.

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We don't even really have to encounter.

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Speaking of someone who comes from a long line of funeral directors.

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Sure.

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Well, I just think about my time in the parish, about how separated that was from anybody

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at their home.

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You know, you think about back a few generations and people having people die in their homes

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or even having the funeral or visitation at home that we've been able to put it even beyond

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arm's length now.

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But talking about storms in the forefront, you'd be hard pressed to say, well, are there

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challenges to solely focusing the life of a Christian on the atonement and nothing else?

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Well, part of that is that, well, Christ died for my sins.

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When I die, I won't go to hell.

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And we begin to then forget that there's this other thing called the resurrection of the

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body, which is given to us here and now, the assurance of it spiritually via our baptism,

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but it's also a physical thing that's going to happen.

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So again, all three articles of the creed systematically, we separate them to talk about

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them respectively.

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But in all systematics, if you've broken the pieces apart and they don't come back together,

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well, you've done it wrong.

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Nicely put.

232
00:15:29,328 --> 00:15:35,601
Yeah, and I'm going to pick up a little bit on your point about the atonement and then

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tying it to the Third Article with the resurrection of the body.

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Something that I think weighs on me these days, recent years, is this.

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You can't have a good solid sense of the atonement or redemption or what that means without a

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solid sense of what it means for God to be creator, because that's sort of the presupposition.

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Because we talk about God saving us, whether it's from sin or from hell or God's wrath.

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That presupposes a certain vision of God and a certain vision of God as creator.

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Maybe a way of getting at this is, I have a very simplistic view of human history.

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And it kind of goes like this.

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For all of human history, every person, every family has sought to secure their lives, to

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put food on the table, rope over the head, to live in relative peace with neighbors and

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within the community.

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In order to do that, you have to gain some control over your environment.

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You've got to be able to have water for the crops to give you food.

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You need control over the insects that can destroy everything.

247
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You can't have armies marching across the fields.

248
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You need to be able to store food for the environment, but you need some control over

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your environment.

250
00:17:22,007 --> 00:17:27,046
How do you get control over your environment in order to have that personal security?

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Well, for most of human history and almost every religion, divine forces control the

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environment.

253
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So if you want to gain control of the environment, you have to gain control over the divine forces.

254
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And that means sometimes sacrifices.

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You find that whether it's with Aztecs or well, probably in almost every religion or

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00:17:50,602 --> 00:17:56,475
at the very least you got to pray, placate the divine forces, however you want to put

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00:17:56,475 --> 00:18:01,880
it so that you can harness their power to control the environment.

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In our day though, we've gained control of the environment.

259
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We don't need to harness divine forces.

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Most days we think we have.

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But we live in.

262
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It's well taken.

263
00:18:15,427 --> 00:18:19,198
It is very like, exactly, we can hide from tornadoes.

264
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Tornadoes, insects.

265
00:18:22,734 --> 00:18:27,372
I may go outside and there's a skink or every once in a while I find a snake in the backyard

266
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or something like that.

267
00:18:28,474 --> 00:18:33,679
But by and large, I'm not threatened by forests or-

268
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No.

269
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,882
Well, even like you were saying-

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Irrigate your crops.

271
00:18:37,883 --> 00:18:38,884
Yeah.

272
00:18:38,884 --> 00:18:39,885
Exactly.

273
00:18:39,885 --> 00:18:43,655
Even with the human condition, death.

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Life expectancy.

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I mean, there can't have ever been another time in human history where people live as

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long as we do.

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We say when somebody dies at 50, they've died young.

278
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Exactly.

279
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And we think of famines.

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Well, okay, if there's sort of a famine in the Midwest, food might go up in price a little

281
00:19:04,810 --> 00:19:07,479
bit, but we'll just get it from somewhere else in the world.

282
00:19:07,479 --> 00:19:08,480
Exactly.

283
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,551
You know, and so it's not like I'm worried about are we going to have enough to get through

284
00:19:12,551 --> 00:19:17,890
the winter or anything like that.

285
00:19:17,890 --> 00:19:24,763
And so there seems to me in the past, there was this sense of divine forces controlling

286
00:19:24,763 --> 00:19:29,234
the environment, and that meant that people had- Dr. Kolb and I talked about this a

287
00:19:29,234 --> 00:19:30,235
lot.

288
00:19:30,235 --> 00:19:35,107
I think he wrote a post on it somewhere too, what Rudolf Otto, now he sort of studied the

289
00:19:35,107 --> 00:19:41,213
history of natural religions, but talks about the Old Testament as well, had this sense

290
00:19:41,213 --> 00:19:47,920
of- I don't know if I want to call it sort of a terrifying mystery of divine.

291
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:54,893
In other words, you're very much aware of divine forces in the world, and things like

292
00:19:54,893 --> 00:20:04,970
tornadoes, floods, hurricanes, illnesses, whatever it might be, are frightening.

293
00:20:04,970 --> 00:20:09,575
Or they put a certain fear in you.

294
00:20:09,575 --> 00:20:12,311
The analogy I'm trying to think of is like a thunderstorm.

295
00:20:12,311 --> 00:20:15,013
On the one hand, you're drawn to it.

296
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We talk about this fascinating mystery and also this terrifying mystery.

297
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You're drawn to it.

298
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,824
I like to be on my back deck or front porch and watch the lightning and thunder, but at

299
00:20:25,824 --> 00:20:32,731
the same time, you don't want to go on top of a hill and wait for a lightning strike

300
00:20:32,731 --> 00:20:35,601
or something like that.

301
00:20:35,601 --> 00:20:44,743
And so that was also sort of the sense of like, okay, there is a creator, he's in charge.

302
00:20:44,743 --> 00:20:52,684
So maybe another analogy would be those who climb mountains know that there are dangers.

303
00:20:52,684 --> 00:20:56,989
So like Long Peak in Colorado, if you want to climb it, you start out at six in the morning,

304
00:20:56,989 --> 00:21:00,425
you better be heading down by noon because thunderstorms are coming in.

305
00:21:00,425 --> 00:21:05,063
Or scuba divers, you know, there's dangers going too deep or coming up too fast.

306
00:21:05,063 --> 00:21:06,064
You know the danger.

307
00:21:06,064 --> 00:21:09,368
Now it doesn't keep you from doing those things, but you're kind of aware like-

308
00:21:09,368 --> 00:21:12,437
Bad stuff can happen, yeah.

309
00:21:12,437 --> 00:21:17,409
You know, I got to take precautions.

310
00:21:17,409 --> 00:21:23,682
And I just don't sense that we have that kind of awareness of God.

311
00:21:23,682 --> 00:21:27,185
And I'm not saying that Christians should be afraid of God by any means.

312
00:21:27,185 --> 00:21:34,326
But there's more of this sense like, he's in charge, it's his world, and frankly, it

313
00:21:34,326 --> 00:21:38,997
can be a little- my life is somewhat contingent.

314
00:21:38,997 --> 00:21:40,365
Right.

315
00:21:40,365 --> 00:21:44,469
I think that's why it's so jarring for people when stuff comes out of nowhere.

316
00:21:44,469 --> 00:21:47,839
So you think about like a tornado that pops up in the middle of the night that you don't

317
00:21:47,839 --> 00:21:49,007
have any warning about.

318
00:21:49,007 --> 00:21:53,412
That it's so shocking because we're so conditioned to feel like we have the control or we have

319
00:21:53,412 --> 00:21:56,048
the knowledge to be able to maintain this.

320
00:21:56,048 --> 00:22:00,886
And when something shows us that we don't, we're like, wait a minute, how did that happen?

321
00:22:00,886 --> 00:22:01,887
Yeah.

322
00:22:01,887 --> 00:22:04,089
I was thinking too about this.

323
00:22:04,089 --> 00:22:09,594
In past times, I think something like the pandemic would have elicited us major religious

324
00:22:09,594 --> 00:22:10,595
revival.

325
00:22:10,595 --> 00:22:11,596
Sure.

326
00:22:11,596 --> 00:22:12,597
It didn't.

327
00:22:12,597 --> 00:22:15,667
I mean, if anything, it caused people to stay home.

328
00:22:15,667 --> 00:22:21,039
Well, and we figured- because we need a vaccine as quick as we can.

329
00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:22,040
Right.

330
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,344
Although do you think that was also shocking for people to realize how little control?

331
00:22:25,344 --> 00:22:28,814
Because I feel like that was another event that demonstrated how little control we had

332
00:22:28,814 --> 00:22:29,815
over nature.

333
00:22:29,815 --> 00:22:30,816
Yeah, it might have.

334
00:22:30,816 --> 00:22:31,783
Yeah.

335
00:22:31,783 --> 00:22:35,654
Not in a good way necessarily, like driving them back to religion.

336
00:22:35,654 --> 00:22:37,456
But yeah, I think you're right.

337
00:22:37,456 --> 00:22:43,528
It's just that we figured we will get control over it once we can figure out what's causing

338
00:22:43,528 --> 00:22:48,633
it and figure out a solution to it.

339
00:22:48,633 --> 00:22:53,605
I don't know if this makes sense or not, but that's what I kind of mean is we've lost a

340
00:22:53,605 --> 00:22:58,410
sense of what it means to speak of God as the creator.

341
00:22:58,410 --> 00:23:04,516
And that lies behind all of our talk in redemption.

342
00:23:04,516 --> 00:23:05,517
Sure.

343
00:23:05,517 --> 00:23:12,391
And without it, our talk about redemption atonement runs the risk of becoming watered

344
00:23:12,391 --> 00:23:22,968
down or sort of milk toast or God's about helping me in my personal relationships, which

345
00:23:22,968 --> 00:23:25,437
I don't want to minimize the importance of those at all.

346
00:23:25,437 --> 00:23:26,605
Of course not.

347
00:23:26,605 --> 00:23:30,275
But yeah, I'll leave it there.

348
00:23:30,275 --> 00:23:36,848
This is something that I'm pondering and I'm increasingly thinking that the book of Job

349
00:23:36,848 --> 00:23:45,190
may be where we have to turn to recover it because while Genesis 1 is foundational, you

350
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:50,495
get a picture of a more of a harmonious and peaceful creation there.

351
00:23:50,495 --> 00:23:59,471
Job shows us a wild creation and a God who delights in a wild creation and a non-human

352
00:23:59,471 --> 00:24:01,306
creation.

353
00:24:01,306 --> 00:24:07,112
And so I think when we, maybe the closest we can get is when we start thinking about

354
00:24:07,112 --> 00:24:08,113
the universe.

355
00:24:08,113 --> 00:24:09,114
Sure.

356
00:24:09,114 --> 00:24:14,719
And just the sheer scale of it, the sheer number of galaxies, the weird stuff that you

357
00:24:14,719 --> 00:24:22,627
have in there from black holes to quasars to pulsars to neutron stars and how inhospitable

358
00:24:22,627 --> 00:24:24,563
it is to us.

359
00:24:24,563 --> 00:24:25,664
It's not hospitable life.

360
00:24:25,664 --> 00:24:33,472
And then the fact that if God is a God of life, you would think life is everywhere.

361
00:24:33,472 --> 00:24:36,641
It seems like it's not.

362
00:24:36,641 --> 00:24:40,946
And what's that say about God?

363
00:24:40,946 --> 00:24:52,123
So I think Job shows us a picture of maybe called the wildness of God or that God likes

364
00:24:52,123 --> 00:24:58,797
strange stuff, ostriches who hide their heads and donkeys that kick up their heels.

365
00:24:58,797 --> 00:25:05,704
And then the wild oceans, it's like a toddler for God.

366
00:25:05,704 --> 00:25:12,611
He provides a playpen for with the boundaries of the land.

367
00:25:12,611 --> 00:25:13,612
Right.

368
00:25:13,612 --> 00:25:15,180
One, yeah.

369
00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:20,852
And so it's one of those things again, here our audience knows that I studied science

370
00:25:20,852 --> 00:25:24,389
in my undergraduate degree in chemistry.

371
00:25:24,389 --> 00:25:34,733
And so I always imagined doing a Genesis, Genesis one to six kind of PhD if I did biblical

372
00:25:34,733 --> 00:25:40,705
studies or First Article type thing where I'm at, you just never know, you never guess.

373
00:25:40,705 --> 00:25:44,676
But it is, I spent so much time looking at those types of things just because people

374
00:25:44,676 --> 00:25:53,451
will, when they discover a new species in the ocean now, there's TV channels and YouTube

375
00:25:53,451 --> 00:25:55,720
and everything else, people are like, oh, that's proof of aliens.

376
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,355
It's this alien species.

377
00:25:57,355 --> 00:26:03,328
So even beyond Christianity, just to talk about where we are in society and to speak

378
00:26:03,328 --> 00:26:08,967
into what you're saying, people have lost their awe of the earth that we live in.

379
00:26:08,967 --> 00:26:15,240
And that, yeah, there's a big massive universe that's chaotic and strange and weird.

380
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:20,812
And they're beginning to realize they don't know everything they knew about black holes.

381
00:26:20,812 --> 00:26:24,616
And the precariousness of our position within it.

382
00:26:24,616 --> 00:26:29,988
And that even with all the things that we've discovered, the ability to come up with a

383
00:26:29,988 --> 00:26:36,795
vaccination against a pandemic in less than a year as to where again, back in the Reformation

384
00:26:36,795 --> 00:26:43,868
days, the bubonic plague went on until it ended and wiped out a significant number of

385
00:26:43,868 --> 00:26:47,706
the human population of the time.

386
00:26:47,706 --> 00:26:54,646
That there's still things here on this earth that is massive and yet, and the scale of

387
00:26:54,646 --> 00:27:02,487
creation is minuscule, but there's still things for us to learn and discover here and now.

388
00:27:02,487 --> 00:27:07,092
It's such a beautiful thing.

389
00:27:07,092 --> 00:27:11,363
Before we do have specific topics we want to talk about today.

390
00:27:11,363 --> 00:27:12,664
We pressed the button.

391
00:27:12,664 --> 00:27:13,665
Our long introduction.

392
00:27:13,665 --> 00:27:15,467
Yeah, we did.

393
00:27:15,467 --> 00:27:18,570
For both of us, or all three of us, I think it's just amazing.

394
00:27:18,570 --> 00:27:22,674
Before we carry on to our particular topic, because we're starting, well, we started a

395
00:27:22,674 --> 00:27:27,112
series on the book of Concord, and that is going to be our main topic.

396
00:27:27,112 --> 00:27:31,349
Before we move into that though, Dr. Arand, we'd like to ask first time guest, what was

397
00:27:31,349 --> 00:27:33,351
your path to ministry?

398
00:27:33,351 --> 00:27:37,155
What were things that led, or people who encouraged you to become a pastor?

399
00:27:37,155 --> 00:27:48,800
Yeah, I don't know that there, I would say there was anything, no Damascus road experience.

400
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,304
Basically my grandma put the idea into my head when I was about five years old.

401
00:27:53,304 --> 00:27:56,241
And my mom kind of cultivated it.

402
00:27:56,241 --> 00:28:02,681
So for my grandma, lifelong Missouri Synod Lutheran, and in some Lutheran families, I

403
00:28:02,681 --> 00:28:08,853
suspect like some families of other traditions, maybe like Catholic traditions.

404
00:28:08,853 --> 00:28:14,626
So my grandma had two sons, and one son was supposed to become the pastor.

405
00:28:14,626 --> 00:28:18,129
The other son was supposed to be the doctor.

406
00:28:18,129 --> 00:28:21,833
Both sons went into the family funeral business.

407
00:28:21,833 --> 00:28:29,407
So the task of becoming the pastor fell upon her oldest grandson, which was me.

408
00:28:29,407 --> 00:28:35,213
So that seed was sort of planted, and like I said, always sort of been with me.

409
00:28:35,213 --> 00:28:38,049
I'd always sort of been aiming toward that.

410
00:28:38,049 --> 00:28:42,187
Of course, I had some good pastors along the way.

411
00:28:42,187 --> 00:28:45,190
I think of the pastor who confirmed me, Dennis Pegorsch.

412
00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:51,963
I want to say he's in Tennessee or Kentucky now.

413
00:28:51,963 --> 00:28:58,169
And so I ended up attending Milwaukee Lutheran High School, and I think I was still aiming

414
00:28:58,169 --> 00:28:59,170
toward the seminary.

415
00:28:59,170 --> 00:29:05,110
Then I went to Concordia College in Milwaukee, when it was still a two-year school, to start

416
00:29:05,110 --> 00:29:13,318
the languages, Greek and Hebrew, and then from there eventually to the seminary.

417
00:29:13,318 --> 00:29:19,390
So I was sort of following the path that the Synod had kind of developed in terms of what

418
00:29:19,390 --> 00:29:25,163
was left of the old so-called system from high school to junior college.

419
00:29:25,163 --> 00:29:26,931
I didn't go to senior college.

420
00:29:26,931 --> 00:29:29,167
I went to Ann Arbor for one year.

421
00:29:29,167 --> 00:29:30,535
Then Concordia turned four year.

422
00:29:30,535 --> 00:29:38,576
I came back to Milwaukee largely because Wisconsin had a Wisconsin tuition grant.

423
00:29:38,576 --> 00:29:41,112
And then once I graduated there, I came here.

424
00:29:41,112 --> 00:29:49,120
It's one of those things, in recruiting, it's one of those things that I'm beginning to

425
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,823
do.

426
00:29:51,823 --> 00:29:55,794
We're trying to plant seeds in high schoolers and junior high schoolers.

427
00:29:55,794 --> 00:29:57,562
And even then, it's tough.

428
00:29:57,562 --> 00:30:03,568
I'll go and speak to a high school, and for my sake, in trying to plant new seeds,

429
00:30:03,568 --> 00:30:07,005
there's still high schoolers that get to senior year, and they don't know what they want to

430
00:30:07,005 --> 00:30:08,006
do.

431
00:30:08,006 --> 00:30:11,476
I think sometimes they feel ostracized, like, well, how can you be about to go to college

432
00:30:11,476 --> 00:30:17,415
and not know what the rest of your life is going to look like?

433
00:30:17,415 --> 00:30:21,052
But I like that, since five years old, there are a lot of stories like that, but there

434
00:30:21,052 --> 00:30:22,520
are less and less.

435
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:23,521
Yeah.

436
00:30:23,521 --> 00:30:24,522
Go ahead.

437
00:30:24,522 --> 00:30:28,026
I like that idea of planting seeds because I think sometimes people ask us, what can

438
00:30:28,026 --> 00:30:29,961
I do to help?

439
00:30:29,961 --> 00:30:34,732
Just that idea of planting a seed and encouraging somebody along the way that you don't have

440
00:30:34,732 --> 00:30:40,004
to be the one to convince them to come here, but starting a seed when it's five.

441
00:30:40,004 --> 00:30:44,375
You mentioned cultivating it and kind of encouraging it along, but you don't know where those seeds

442
00:30:44,375 --> 00:30:46,878
are going to go, but it helps to have it there.

443
00:30:46,878 --> 00:30:53,351
I think the advantage I did have on the cultivation side is that there was also sort of a piety

444
00:30:53,351 --> 00:30:56,254
that nurtured it.

445
00:30:56,254 --> 00:30:57,255
Family devotions.

446
00:30:57,255 --> 00:31:03,094
I mean, my grandma always had, every morning, would maybe have a big breakfast, followed

447
00:31:03,094 --> 00:31:08,333
by a devotion, portals of prayer, Bible reading, et cetera.

448
00:31:08,333 --> 00:31:16,808
And so there was also sort of that kind of piety there through most of my childhood that

449
00:31:16,808 --> 00:31:21,279
probably nurtured or cultivated that seed.

450
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:23,348
Yeah, that's good stuff.

451
00:31:23,348 --> 00:31:29,754
And when there's, I like that additional piety, of course, well, I say, of course, nobody

452
00:31:29,754 --> 00:31:35,360
should ever presume anything, but when you go to school to do a thing and you learn,

453
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:41,366
again, your profs are telling you the forecast of a lack of in-home family devotions and

454
00:31:41,366 --> 00:31:45,803
what that does to parishioners and their kids, their spirituality, their faith life, you

455
00:31:45,803 --> 00:31:50,275
hopefully don't take the words of wisdom for granted and you create a devotional life for

456
00:31:50,275 --> 00:31:51,276
pastors at home.

457
00:31:51,276 --> 00:31:52,277
And so, yeah, we do that.

458
00:31:52,277 --> 00:31:58,216
We have children's Bibles.

459
00:31:58,216 --> 00:32:00,418
People always ask me for, what should I do?

460
00:32:00,418 --> 00:32:04,789
When I go to Concordia and I want to be a pre-sem, what should I study?

461
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:07,592
Whenever they say theology, I'm like, you can.

462
00:32:07,592 --> 00:32:10,194
There's nothing wrong with studying theology in general.

463
00:32:10,194 --> 00:32:17,368
But a major in theology at a Concordia won't skip the first two years of your seminary

464
00:32:17,368 --> 00:32:19,704
education.

465
00:32:19,704 --> 00:32:21,706
You'll be well-versed, those guys.

466
00:32:21,706 --> 00:32:28,479
But for the smart guys, and even, anyway, for classes, you end up getting caught up

467
00:32:28,479 --> 00:32:32,116
probably to the pre-sem guys at least midway through your second year.

468
00:32:32,116 --> 00:32:35,286
Certainly before we go on vicarages, we're all kind of on a level plane by then.

469
00:32:35,286 --> 00:32:39,290
You want to do languages and not take them here, that's a great advantage.

470
00:32:39,290 --> 00:32:45,129
But I've begun to tell guys more and more, if you like teaching, study the languages.

471
00:32:45,129 --> 00:32:49,734
If you go to Concordia, you're going to take the basic theology classes anyway and do teaching

472
00:32:49,734 --> 00:32:53,237
because that's a skill set that you have a couple classes at the seminary, but not one

473
00:32:53,237 --> 00:32:54,605
that we're going to really hone.

474
00:32:54,605 --> 00:32:57,642
Yeah, I agree with you.

475
00:32:57,642 --> 00:33:02,714
I majored in the social sciences, psychology and sociology.

476
00:33:02,714 --> 00:33:11,990
And when I think of the senior college, I know I could be corrected here, but they really

477
00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:16,427
focused on philosophy and the liberal arts and literature.

478
00:33:16,427 --> 00:33:23,735
And things like that, I think, really do help you because, well, they help you to sort of

479
00:33:23,735 --> 00:33:28,106
engage the culture and to interact with the culture.

480
00:33:28,106 --> 00:33:37,315
So I have found it to be, I'm not quite sure how to put it, I don't want to say context,

481
00:33:37,315 --> 00:33:42,153
but it's always sort of there with me and it's actually been helpful.

482
00:33:42,153 --> 00:33:49,694
Well, you know, one simple example with the social sciences is a recognition that, and

483
00:33:49,694 --> 00:33:59,437
sometimes I run into this in Christian circles that you don't need social sciences to analyze

484
00:33:59,437 --> 00:34:05,243
stuff like faith development or however you want to put it.

485
00:34:05,243 --> 00:34:09,680
It's simply the Bible or theology.

486
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:18,689
And again, that's playing down, if not demeaning, I think the First Article, because when I

487
00:34:18,689 --> 00:34:27,999
think of say, I don't know if it would be sociology, but books they've done, like analyzing

488
00:34:27,999 --> 00:34:36,441
the way faith develops as we progress in age, all it's doing is sort of looking at how we

489
00:34:36,441 --> 00:34:37,442
perceive it.

490
00:34:37,442 --> 00:34:38,443
Sure.

491
00:34:38,443 --> 00:34:42,513
And not thinking anything about the Holy Spirit, not creating faith or anything like that,

492
00:34:42,513 --> 00:34:46,551
simply how do I experience that faith?

493
00:34:46,551 --> 00:34:47,552
And that's helpful.

494
00:34:47,552 --> 00:34:57,562
And frankly, even with psychology, if you study Luther's First Commandment and the importance

495
00:34:57,562 --> 00:35:03,234
of trust and how no one can live without trust or faith, it has connections.

496
00:35:03,234 --> 00:35:10,241
I don't know if I want to say it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs or if it's Erickson.

497
00:35:10,241 --> 00:35:14,278
Maslow, hierarchy.

498
00:35:14,278 --> 00:35:19,884
And certainly philosophy helps you then to understand the intellectual currents of the

499
00:35:19,884 --> 00:35:23,988
culture that you're engaging and how to bring the gospel into that.

500
00:35:23,988 --> 00:35:25,356
So yeah, I agree with you.

501
00:35:25,356 --> 00:35:29,627
This is an area where I love Luther's explanation to the First Article in the Small Catechism,

502
00:35:29,627 --> 00:35:34,132
that God has given me my reason and all my senses, that there is no reason as Christians

503
00:35:34,132 --> 00:35:39,403
that we have to shut our brains off and not engage with the entirety of creation and everything

504
00:35:39,403 --> 00:35:44,008
that God has given to us, because He's developed our senses and He's given things to feed those

505
00:35:44,008 --> 00:35:49,080
senses, but He's also given our reason and our brains and intellect and ways to process

506
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:50,081
stuff.

507
00:35:50,081 --> 00:35:57,355
All right, this is where our, well anyway, when Ben is here, he pushes the conversation.

508
00:35:57,355 --> 00:35:58,990
Yeah, I was gonna say, get control of this now.

509
00:35:58,990 --> 00:35:59,991
I'm trying.

510
00:35:59,991 --> 00:36:03,728
Well, I'm the problem and that's the problem.

511
00:36:03,728 --> 00:36:07,765
I should have thought about that more about keeping you along.

512
00:36:07,765 --> 00:36:10,001
So blame Tom because I asked him to be...

513
00:36:10,001 --> 00:36:11,836
I was not fully filling Ben's role.

514
00:36:11,836 --> 00:36:12,837
Yeah, exactly.

515
00:36:12,837 --> 00:36:15,306
He's supposed to be the task manager.

516
00:36:15,306 --> 00:36:19,177
Dr. Arand, if I could ask you this question about the Book of Concord.

517
00:36:19,177 --> 00:36:22,680
So me and Ben, again, like I said, we kind of rambled on about it a little bit in the

518
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:23,948
first episode of the series.

519
00:36:23,948 --> 00:36:29,086
If I had to ask you, what is the Book of Concord?

520
00:36:29,086 --> 00:36:33,291
If somebody came up to you in a parish, you had just been a guest speaker or something

521
00:36:33,291 --> 00:36:36,527
like that, and you were talking about something and they say, well, Dr. Arand, okay, I've

522
00:36:36,527 --> 00:36:39,197
seen this book on my parent's shelf.

523
00:36:39,197 --> 00:36:40,198
What is it?

524
00:36:40,198 --> 00:36:41,199
How would you respond?

525
00:36:41,199 --> 00:36:46,637
Boy, it's gonna be hard for me not to ramble on this topic.

526
00:36:46,637 --> 00:36:49,607
And so you're putting me on the spot here.

527
00:36:49,607 --> 00:36:53,077
I would probably start with the title Book of Concord.

528
00:36:53,077 --> 00:37:05,790
So it is a collection of documents that set forth our confession of who Jesus is and why

529
00:37:05,790 --> 00:37:12,830
he matters in a variety of areas of life.

530
00:37:12,830 --> 00:37:24,375
And as a result of bringing these documents together, the Book of Concord brought an end

531
00:37:24,375 --> 00:37:32,083
to the controversies that had been dividing Lutheran Churches for some 30 years and probably

532
00:37:32,083 --> 00:37:38,689
hindering its growth and expansion as a result.

533
00:37:38,689 --> 00:37:41,525
You said you were gonna ramble on.

534
00:37:41,525 --> 00:37:44,795
I don't know if I could say it that way that precisely.

535
00:37:44,795 --> 00:37:48,633
It's a pretty succinct explanation.

536
00:37:48,633 --> 00:37:53,037
And so it is one of those things where, again, you go through and you open it up and it's

537
00:37:53,037 --> 00:37:54,038
like, where do you start?

538
00:37:54,038 --> 00:37:58,242
And there are some people might be interested to know that it's not just a singular book

539
00:37:58,242 --> 00:37:59,243
either.

540
00:37:59,243 --> 00:38:00,244
You kind of mentioned the documents.

541
00:38:00,244 --> 00:38:02,513
I don't know if you want to talk more about that.

542
00:38:02,513 --> 00:38:09,754
Yeah, it's a collection of documents that were intended to say, here's what the Reformation

543
00:38:09,754 --> 00:38:12,723
is about.

544
00:38:12,723 --> 00:38:18,829
Here's what it means to be Lutheran.

545
00:38:18,829 --> 00:38:26,904
And here is wherein we find our unity as a church.

546
00:38:26,904 --> 00:38:28,906
Yeah.

547
00:38:28,906 --> 00:38:39,350
Well, and like you said, within the collection, you said this earlier, and it's one of those

548
00:38:39,350 --> 00:38:43,554
enjoyable things and understanding who's what, right?

549
00:38:43,554 --> 00:38:49,393
And so we have these different departments in the seminary and you would look at a guy

550
00:38:49,393 --> 00:38:54,231
like Dr. Gerry Bode, who we've had on, and he teaches in the history department.

551
00:38:54,231 --> 00:38:58,869
Well, when he was doing his PhD work, he did in doctrinal theology.

552
00:38:58,869 --> 00:39:03,708
And then you have Dr. Kolb, who teaches very often in the systematics department, but he

553
00:39:03,708 --> 00:39:09,213
is very clearly and I mean, globally known as a historian.

554
00:39:09,213 --> 00:39:10,214
And so...

555
00:39:10,214 --> 00:39:11,949
And I did my STM in the history department.

556
00:39:11,949 --> 00:39:12,950
There we go.

557
00:39:12,950 --> 00:39:13,951
American Lutheran history.

558
00:39:13,951 --> 00:39:19,623
Well, it's just unavoidable because again, like you said, doctrinal theology, teaching

559
00:39:19,623 --> 00:39:24,061
of what scripture says, can't ignore what's going on at the time.

560
00:39:24,061 --> 00:39:30,000
And so it has to deal with, in real time, it's dealing with present, which isn't necessarily

561
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,739
history, but present history, the present time of the world.

562
00:39:34,739 --> 00:39:40,411
But we look back at the book of Concord and it is a collection of documents of faith.

563
00:39:40,411 --> 00:39:46,784
But I mean, you could also, from an academic level, look at it and see historically what

564
00:39:46,784 --> 00:39:55,326
was going on during the time of every article that's put into it.

565
00:39:55,326 --> 00:39:58,229
And you can see why they were writing, or at least you can begin to say, well, why were

566
00:39:58,229 --> 00:39:59,563
they writing this?

567
00:39:59,563 --> 00:40:05,569
And then you could then maybe do more historical work into other things that were written around

568
00:40:05,569 --> 00:40:09,006
the same time, things that were happening and see why they're doing this.

569
00:40:09,006 --> 00:40:10,007
Yeah.

570
00:40:10,007 --> 00:40:16,814
I don't know that I've done this much, but our conversation is sparking a few thoughts

571
00:40:16,814 --> 00:40:24,522
in me, playing off this language of Book of Concord, you could say book of unity.

572
00:40:24,522 --> 00:40:32,329
And I want to play with that just a little bit because I do think that American Christians,

573
00:40:32,329 --> 00:40:37,535
including Lutherans, have lost a sense of the corporate nature of the church.

574
00:40:37,535 --> 00:40:38,536
Right.

575
00:40:38,536 --> 00:40:45,876
I mean, we're very much individualistic and we may think of individualistic, of our identities

576
00:40:45,876 --> 00:40:54,285
as individuals, but we're talking here about the church and the way that they wanted to

577
00:40:54,285 --> 00:41:03,627
emphasize their unity as a church shaped the way the documents that they selected.

578
00:41:03,627 --> 00:41:10,167
So by including the three ecumenical creeds, it's a way of saying we are in unity with

579
00:41:10,167 --> 00:41:12,069
the ancient church.

580
00:41:12,069 --> 00:41:14,905
We confess what they did.

581
00:41:14,905 --> 00:41:18,776
By including the Augsburg Confession, they're saying there may have been divisions among

582
00:41:18,776 --> 00:41:27,384
us, but we all hold to the Augsburg Confession, this is what defines us as a, in fact, we

583
00:41:27,384 --> 00:41:30,387
would call it the church of the Augsburg Confession.

584
00:41:30,387 --> 00:41:36,961
This is the church that confesses what the Augsburg Confession teaches.

585
00:41:36,961 --> 00:41:43,167
And the Augsburg Confession itself though, sees itself as simply unpacking the creeds.

586
00:41:43,167 --> 00:41:44,168
Right.

587
00:41:44,168 --> 00:41:45,436
And so forth.

588
00:41:45,436 --> 00:41:50,508
And then the other documents in there, whether it's the Apology of the Augsburg Confession,

589
00:41:50,508 --> 00:41:54,645
the Smalcald Treatise, or ultimately the Forming of Concord, they're just unpacking

590
00:41:54,645 --> 00:41:56,614
the Augsburg Confession.

591
00:41:56,614 --> 00:42:03,587
So there's a sense where the focus is on the corporate nature of the church, the unity

592
00:42:03,587 --> 00:42:06,357
church, we are part of this.

593
00:42:06,357 --> 00:42:16,467
And this is part of the early church, and this is part of what grew into the Reformation.

594
00:42:16,467 --> 00:42:17,468
Yeah.

595
00:42:17,468 --> 00:42:19,370
Because that's really the argument of the reformers, right?

596
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:24,174
Is that we're not making up anything new, we're just, we're trying to confess what the

597
00:42:24,174 --> 00:42:29,313
church has always confessed and return from places where we've wandered off.

598
00:42:29,313 --> 00:42:30,314
I agree.

599
00:42:30,314 --> 00:42:36,654
And there's a sense where, you know, I had a professor who said, in the Confessions,

600
00:42:36,654 --> 00:42:39,690
novelty is a dirty word.

601
00:42:39,690 --> 00:42:44,495
If it's new, then it's suspect.

602
00:42:44,495 --> 00:42:48,332
There's a part where I do fully agree with that.

603
00:42:48,332 --> 00:43:01,545
I think there is also a potential risk in focusing on that kind of language that would

604
00:43:01,545 --> 00:43:03,814
go like this.

605
00:43:03,814 --> 00:43:07,184
We're not going to say anything new or different than what it says.

606
00:43:07,184 --> 00:43:10,888
Now I'm not talking about doctrine.

607
00:43:10,888 --> 00:43:19,163
But there is, in a sense, new questions that they're taking up, or justification.

608
00:43:19,163 --> 00:43:29,673
And there is a sense where they are providing new, not different, but new or fresh ways

609
00:43:29,673 --> 00:43:33,210
of talking about justification.

610
00:43:33,210 --> 00:43:37,414
So the creeds don't really say anything about the Doctrine of Justification.

611
00:43:37,414 --> 00:43:44,088
They don't really talk about justification by faith or define faith.

612
00:43:44,088 --> 00:43:49,293
So it's not like the Reformers could simply quote the early church fathers and leave it

613
00:43:49,293 --> 00:43:50,294
at that.

614
00:43:50,294 --> 00:43:51,295
Right.

615
00:43:51,295 --> 00:43:55,532
They had to do the hard work themselves of addressing the questions and needs of their

616
00:43:55,532 --> 00:43:56,800
day.

617
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:02,539
To be sure, like you said, in continuity with the early church, but it's also more than

618
00:44:02,539 --> 00:44:03,540
simply parroting.

619
00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:04,541
Sure.

620
00:44:04,541 --> 00:44:11,015
Well, this kind of goes to your point about not being able to divorce systematics or doctrine

621
00:44:11,015 --> 00:44:12,016
from history.

622
00:44:12,016 --> 00:44:13,350
That's a great point.

623
00:44:13,350 --> 00:44:17,187
Every generation has certain questions that it's asking and answering.

624
00:44:17,187 --> 00:44:20,824
And our day has a certain set of questions that it's answering too.

625
00:44:20,824 --> 00:44:21,825
That's a really good point.

626
00:44:21,825 --> 00:44:22,826
Yeah.

627
00:44:22,826 --> 00:44:23,827
And not only like, oh, go ahead.

628
00:44:23,827 --> 00:44:29,333
Oh, and so you just have to be able to take what's been passed down and faithfully answer

629
00:44:29,333 --> 00:44:35,305
those questions and try to avoid just a one size fits all approach too of saying, well,

630
00:44:35,305 --> 00:44:38,275
you know, this is what was said 500 years ago.

631
00:44:38,275 --> 00:44:39,276
Exactly.

632
00:44:39,276 --> 00:44:41,679
Let's try to get a square peg in a round hole.

633
00:44:41,679 --> 00:44:42,680
Yep, exactly.

634
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:43,681
Yeah.

635
00:44:43,681 --> 00:44:49,286
And I was going to say, we not only have, we have the responsibility for the sake of

636
00:44:49,286 --> 00:44:54,525
the people that I think if we confess this and see what they did, especially why they

637
00:44:54,525 --> 00:44:56,760
did it in particular, who they did it for.

638
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,531
It wasn't just a matter of showing up the academy.

639
00:45:00,531 --> 00:45:09,873
This is meant so that the people of the world, but namely the people of the church can hear

640
00:45:09,873 --> 00:45:16,413
about the God who has created, redeemed and sanctified them in ways that are fresh, but

641
00:45:16,413 --> 00:45:18,315
also communicable.

642
00:45:18,315 --> 00:45:22,286
And so, like you said, we can't, whenever these new questions come up, we can't just

643
00:45:22,286 --> 00:45:29,359
go through here, find kind of the section that it comes from and then give this to people.

644
00:45:29,359 --> 00:45:30,928
No, we have to find this section.

645
00:45:30,928 --> 00:45:35,833
We have to see, listen, read, understand what they were saying and then speak it into today.

646
00:45:35,833 --> 00:45:36,834
We have that responsibility.

647
00:45:36,834 --> 00:45:40,771
You know, so they didn't have to deal with environmental questions.

648
00:45:40,771 --> 00:45:41,772
Right.

649
00:45:41,772 --> 00:45:45,843
But when I go to the Small Catechism, God created me together with all creatures.

650
00:45:45,843 --> 00:45:46,844
Yeah.

651
00:45:46,844 --> 00:45:51,749
Oh, there's something I can latch on to, to affirm on the one hand, there is a commonality

652
00:45:51,749 --> 00:45:52,983
between me and all the creatures.

653
00:45:52,983 --> 00:45:57,921
And at the same time, there is a difference between me and all the creatures.

654
00:45:57,921 --> 00:46:02,826
And then you can sort of lean into that in terms of articulating an answer about our

655
00:46:02,826 --> 00:46:05,829
relationship to the environment today.

656
00:46:05,829 --> 00:46:11,335
When I would say, because I consider myself an environmentalist because again, I love

657
00:46:11,335 --> 00:46:12,336
creation.

658
00:46:12,336 --> 00:46:13,570
So then how do we relate to it?

659
00:46:13,570 --> 00:46:15,272
We're part of it, but yet slightly different.

660
00:46:15,272 --> 00:46:17,074
Well, God gave man dominion.

661
00:46:17,074 --> 00:46:20,277
Well, what is our dominion over the rest of creation looks like?

662
00:46:20,277 --> 00:46:23,046
Well, we look to the ultimate example of dominion, Jesus.

663
00:46:23,046 --> 00:46:25,883
Well, how did he Lord for our sake?

664
00:46:25,883 --> 00:46:28,252
How does he continue to Lord for our sake?

665
00:46:28,252 --> 00:46:33,423
And then we don't Lord like the earthly kings or the rest of creation.

666
00:46:33,423 --> 00:46:38,228
We Lord like our ultimate example over the rest of creation, which is care, compassion,

667
00:46:38,228 --> 00:46:45,202
love, a desire to preserve as opposed to just use and abuse, which can be, well, again,

668
00:46:45,202 --> 00:46:48,038
different conversation, maybe a different series, but.

669
00:46:48,038 --> 00:46:49,039
Yeah.

670
00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:57,014
It just occurred to me though, as we were talking, as you were talking about, our day,

671
00:46:57,014 --> 00:47:00,717
I don't know if this works real well or not.

672
00:47:00,717 --> 00:47:01,718
You tell me.

673
00:47:01,718 --> 00:47:05,856
But one of the things I've been intrigued about, say by the Apology of the Augsburg

674
00:47:05,856 --> 00:47:15,165
Confession, because that's the one document that people probably find most, dare I say, boring,

675
00:47:15,165 --> 00:47:22,039
very dry, repetitive, you name it.

676
00:47:22,039 --> 00:47:25,242
It's probably one of my favorites.

677
00:47:25,242 --> 00:47:32,850
Even though it may be perceived that way, there's an interesting point in Article 20,

678
00:47:32,850 --> 00:47:43,560
kind of almost an excursus, where Philip Melanchthon, Luther's lieutenant, you might say, is arguing

679
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:54,037
or has in view the German people and saying, look, I know that the emperor is sort, what

680
00:47:54,037 --> 00:47:56,840
is the word, riding a sword?

681
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:57,841
Something like that.

682
00:47:57,841 --> 00:47:58,842
Threatening to invade.

683
00:47:58,842 --> 00:47:59,843
Right.

684
00:47:59,843 --> 00:48:02,312
And it could come any time.

685
00:48:02,312 --> 00:48:09,519
And if he invades, there's going to be a lot of suffering, loss of life, loss of property.

686
00:48:09,519 --> 00:48:15,893
But know this, the confession that we have set forth is solidly grounded in scripture.

687
00:48:15,893 --> 00:48:21,932
And so he's got this, stand firm in the confession, every one of you who has heard the gospel.

688
00:48:21,932 --> 00:48:29,373
So there is a sense like that there are these dangers on the horizon, especially the war

689
00:48:29,373 --> 00:48:38,115
and the emperor trying to put down the Lutheran Reformation and so forth.

690
00:48:38,115 --> 00:48:42,653
And Melanchthon's trying to, in a sense, almost trying to rally the people and say, whatever

691
00:48:42,653 --> 00:48:46,556
might come, stand firm.

692
00:48:46,556 --> 00:48:55,165
And he does that by, in the Apology, by laying out the scriptural argument, the historical

693
00:48:55,165 --> 00:49:00,837
argument for why this confession is the confession you must hold.

694
00:49:00,837 --> 00:49:06,743
And so I can't help but think in our day, you know, we're not facing an emperor invading

695
00:49:06,743 --> 00:49:12,716
the United States to eradicate the Missouri Synod or something like that.

696
00:49:12,716 --> 00:49:20,590
But there are other maybe more subtle threats, challenges, dangers on the horizon.

697
00:49:20,590 --> 00:49:31,034
And one of the challenges I suspect we have is to help or to prepare our people on how

698
00:49:31,034 --> 00:49:38,075
to think about those things, to address those things, to confess their faith, to stand firm

699
00:49:38,075 --> 00:49:40,110
in that faith, et cetera.

700
00:49:40,110 --> 00:49:44,247
And so, I don't know, seems somewhat practical to me.

701
00:49:44,247 --> 00:49:45,649
Absolutely.

702
00:49:45,649 --> 00:49:57,894
Well, so with the exception of the creeds, from first document to conclusion or closing

703
00:49:57,894 --> 00:50:01,331
statements for the book, I'll say it that way, not conclusion because the way we're

704
00:50:01,331 --> 00:50:05,002
speaking we were saying it's kind of an ongoing living thing.

705
00:50:05,002 --> 00:50:08,171
It's about 50 years, a little less.

706
00:50:08,171 --> 00:50:14,978
And so at the very beginning, there is a preface to the Book of Concord, which is they're beginning

707
00:50:14,978 --> 00:50:21,151
with the last thing that they wrote, which is kind of the way I've always kind of understood

708
00:50:21,151 --> 00:50:29,092
and looked at is this is kind of them setting the context for potential readers of what

709
00:50:29,092 --> 00:50:31,895
it is and why they're doing it.

710
00:50:31,895 --> 00:50:36,533
So yeah, the preface to the entire book, you're right, is written about 1580.

711
00:50:36,533 --> 00:50:41,438
So it's actually written after all the other documents and it's written for the book because

712
00:50:41,438 --> 00:50:45,208
prior before they had the book, they simply said, we hold to the Augsburg Confession,

713
00:50:45,208 --> 00:50:47,778
the Apology, the Catechism, the Apology.

714
00:50:47,778 --> 00:50:53,850
Now when you gather them together between two covers of one volume, they write this

715
00:50:53,850 --> 00:50:55,585
preface.

716
00:50:55,585 --> 00:51:01,925
So it starts out with the history of the rise of the Reformation and how the church had

717
00:51:01,925 --> 00:51:08,031
lived in darkness through the Middle Ages.

718
00:51:08,031 --> 00:51:14,704
And then God brought forth the light of the Gospel through his servant Martin Luther.

719
00:51:14,704 --> 00:51:21,511
And that Gospel that Martin Luther delivered became, was embodied in the Augsburg Confession.

720
00:51:21,511 --> 00:51:28,785
So they sort of do this history of the last 50 years, including like the development of

721
00:51:28,785 --> 00:51:34,624
the controversies that arose and so forth.

722
00:51:34,624 --> 00:51:44,701
There is on the historical side a little bit of a, how should I say, politics in the

723
00:51:44,701 --> 00:51:50,507
sense, I mean, it's a good reminder the church lives in the world and is dealing with real

724
00:51:50,507 --> 00:51:51,508
people.

725
00:51:51,508 --> 00:51:58,615
So part of the task of the preface is not only to set forth how all these things arose,

726
00:51:58,615 --> 00:52:05,755
but there was one elector or prince, elector is someone who elects the Holy Roman Emperor,

727
00:52:05,755 --> 00:52:08,291
I think there were like seven of them.

728
00:52:08,291 --> 00:52:16,333
There was one who was sort of on the fence post of signing the Book of Concord, I think

729
00:52:16,333 --> 00:52:20,070
Ludwig.

730
00:52:20,070 --> 00:52:24,841
In his territory, people were, a lot of pastors were like, well, wait a minute, we like the

731
00:52:24,841 --> 00:52:28,311
Altered Augsburg Confession.

732
00:52:28,311 --> 00:52:33,483
Because no one during Luther's time ever saw anything wrong with it per se.

733
00:52:33,483 --> 00:52:39,289
Now it became a problem when others interpreted it or misinterpreted it.

734
00:52:39,289 --> 00:52:47,063
And so there is a section there where they say, okay, we have no problem with you going

735
00:52:47,063 --> 00:52:56,640
with the Altered Augsburg Confession as long as it's not interpreted contrary to the original.

736
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:04,714
And that allowed Ludwig to sign the Book of Concord, he's actually the first signatory.

737
00:53:04,714 --> 00:53:12,389
And as a result, you get three major, three electors, Lutheran electors, all on board.

738
00:53:12,389 --> 00:53:20,764
And so that was, again, just another example, like, okay, we can, this is a way we can,

739
00:53:20,764 --> 00:53:28,405
I don't know if I might use the word compromise, but this is a way that we can find a solution

740
00:53:28,405 --> 00:53:35,812
without compromising the confession and bring ourselves together.

741
00:53:35,812 --> 00:53:45,789
Yeah, I mean, so they're coming off of, is it the 30 Years War?

742
00:53:45,789 --> 00:53:50,126
No, that's going to be another 70 years later.

743
00:53:50,126 --> 00:53:55,332
This is, well, it's after, there's the Augsburg Interim.

744
00:53:55,332 --> 00:54:01,805
Right, which is a statement that the Emperor drafted that was designed to reimpose the

745
00:54:01,805 --> 00:54:04,007
medieval faith upon Lutheran lands.

746
00:54:04,007 --> 00:54:05,008
Right.

747
00:54:05,008 --> 00:54:06,876
What is the war that they're coming off of, the name of it?

748
00:54:06,876 --> 00:54:07,877
I'm just blanking.

749
00:54:07,877 --> 00:54:08,878
The Smalcald War?

750
00:54:08,878 --> 00:54:09,879
Is it?

751
00:54:09,879 --> 00:54:10,880
Yeah, I think so.

752
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:16,319
Yeah, the Smalcald War is, let's not talk about that, the Lutherans lost big time.

753
00:54:16,319 --> 00:54:17,320
Sure.

754
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,889
Charles sort of won a decisive victory.

755
00:54:19,889 --> 00:54:28,632
It's like talking about the war of 1812 in America, we just let it slide.

756
00:54:28,632 --> 00:54:33,436
We still have our independence and that's what matters.

757
00:54:33,436 --> 00:54:38,041
But that's the thing, well, because we've kind of been talking about this, pressure

758
00:54:38,041 --> 00:54:40,810
creates circumstances and it has historically.

759
00:54:40,810 --> 00:54:47,117
There's errors and kind of heresies and things that happened in the past that we reject,

760
00:54:47,117 --> 00:54:52,289
like Donatism and things like that where people left the church then came back to the church

761
00:54:52,289 --> 00:54:53,290
because of persecution.

762
00:54:53,290 --> 00:54:56,960
And when they came back, the people who stood fast were like, well, wait a second, we stuck

763
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:57,961
through the persecution.

764
00:54:57,961 --> 00:54:59,829
What are you doing here?

765
00:54:59,829 --> 00:55:04,601
No, you're no longer valid, at least in the specific role that you once held.

766
00:55:04,601 --> 00:55:11,641
But because of that, people suffer, people die and when the sword is at your throat,

767
00:55:11,641 --> 00:55:14,711
it's not easy to say.

768
00:55:14,711 --> 00:55:19,316
It's probably easier to say if you're about to kill me, I'm still a Christian.

769
00:55:19,316 --> 00:55:23,653
Probably a little harder to say I'm still a Lutheran when a sword is at your throat,

770
00:55:23,653 --> 00:55:27,023
if you're not going to die eternally.

771
00:55:27,023 --> 00:55:32,228
But then once that happens and then everybody kind of becomes a little more isolated and

772
00:55:32,228 --> 00:55:37,934
you try to figure things out again, coming back together can almost be more challenging

773
00:55:37,934 --> 00:55:39,669
than coming together the first time.

774
00:55:39,669 --> 00:55:40,670
Yeah.

775
00:55:40,670 --> 00:55:48,645
You know, it's encouragement or counsel not to think of the Reformation as sort of this

776
00:55:48,645 --> 00:55:54,317
golden age when everything was peaceful.

777
00:55:54,317 --> 00:55:59,956
You're dealing with real flesh and blood people, you're dealing with personalities, you're

778
00:55:59,956 --> 00:56:04,194
dealing with vested interests and stuff like that.

779
00:56:04,194 --> 00:56:13,036
Now having said that though, one of the things that has always impressed me is they always

780
00:56:13,036 --> 00:56:22,512
had at the same time an awesome sense of their responsibility as Christian princes or Christian

781
00:56:22,512 --> 00:56:27,083
theologians or Christian pastors.

782
00:56:27,083 --> 00:56:32,389
And that sense of responsibility was that they had to give, they were going to give

783
00:56:32,389 --> 00:56:34,524
an account to God one day.

784
00:56:34,524 --> 00:56:37,761
This gets us back to the Creator, First Article.

785
00:56:37,761 --> 00:56:43,366
And so you mentioned the last page of the Book of Concord.

786
00:56:43,366 --> 00:56:52,242
And on the last page, they're basically saying, we are prepared to answer for what we have

787
00:56:52,242 --> 00:56:56,613
confessed here before the judgment seat of Christ.

788
00:56:56,613 --> 00:57:04,454
And so there's a real sense of what we're doing here and what we're confessing is serious.

789
00:57:04,454 --> 00:57:06,089
It's important.

790
00:57:06,089 --> 00:57:08,992
We're handing it down to future generations.

791
00:57:08,992 --> 00:57:13,663
We're going to have to answer for it to Christ.

792
00:57:13,663 --> 00:57:23,072
And yeah, I just don't know that it's just a different way of thinking than I suppose

793
00:57:23,072 --> 00:57:26,075
we have today.

794
00:57:26,075 --> 00:57:27,844
It's more than a perspective.

795
00:57:27,844 --> 00:57:28,845
Sure.

796
00:57:28,845 --> 00:57:32,048
Well, it's that pressure idea that you were talking about.

797
00:57:32,048 --> 00:57:37,687
We haven't had to face a whole lot of pressure to own our confession probably that we've

798
00:57:37,687 --> 00:57:42,959
received what's been handed down to us and we've lived in relative peace related to it.

799
00:57:42,959 --> 00:57:47,964
And so yeah, it's easy to take it for granted and just say, well, that's what it is.

800
00:57:47,964 --> 00:57:53,870
You sort of have the cultural Christianity that exists that we're part of the culture.

801
00:57:53,870 --> 00:57:55,505
So they sort of have it true for you.

802
00:57:55,505 --> 00:57:59,809
On one hand, you've got it to say like with the emperor and the, and they say the societal

803
00:57:59,809 --> 00:58:04,948
culture things, but then there was also like, say the last judgment thing.

804
00:58:04,948 --> 00:58:05,949
Sure.

805
00:58:05,949 --> 00:58:12,555
Well, and so the, I don't know, like there's, there's certain things that are sitting here

806
00:58:12,555 --> 00:58:13,623
that we're talking about.

807
00:58:13,623 --> 00:58:15,992
So they're talking about the kind of purpose behind it.

808
00:58:15,992 --> 00:58:22,966
And they bring up the condemnations, criticisms and rejections of false and pure teaching.

809
00:58:22,966 --> 00:58:30,240
And for the Formula of Concord, the Lord's supper was one of those things, real presence.

810
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,309
That was one of the things that divided the Lutherans so.

811
00:58:33,309 --> 00:58:34,310
Right.

812
00:58:34,310 --> 00:58:42,385
Well anyway, but so I'm always a fan of, instead of saying, especially when I'm talking to

813
00:58:42,385 --> 00:58:47,190
somebody who's asking me what it means to be Lutheran, a habit and it's kind of, it's

814
00:58:47,190 --> 00:58:55,999
a habit, a habit born of kind of just of certain things is to say what I'm not like, I'm not

815
00:58:55,999 --> 00:58:57,767
Catholic, I'm not Presbyterian.

816
00:58:57,767 --> 00:58:59,335
And then they say, well, what are you?

817
00:58:59,335 --> 00:59:03,606
Well, I'm not Episcopalian.

818
00:59:03,606 --> 00:59:08,611
As opposed to saying what we actually are and what we believe, teach and confess.

819
00:59:08,611 --> 00:59:15,385
I mean, it's one of those things where like if you, if you start with that, we believe,

820
00:59:15,385 --> 00:59:17,253
teach and confess, the affirmative.

821
00:59:17,253 --> 00:59:22,025
And they say, instead it is our will and intention thereby to condemn only the false and seductive

822
00:59:22,025 --> 00:59:26,796
teachings and the stiff necked teachers and blasphemers of the same whom we will by no

823
00:59:26,796 --> 00:59:32,201
means tolerate in our lands, churches and schools because they contradict expressed,

824
00:59:32,201 --> 00:59:35,838
the expressed word of God and cannot coexist with it.

825
00:59:35,838 --> 00:59:42,011
And so again, when we talk about confessions, yeah, they're not, they're a secondary authority

826
00:59:42,011 --> 00:59:43,246
to scripture.

827
00:59:43,246 --> 00:59:48,351
But when they're writing these things, when they're confessing these things, they believe

828
00:59:48,351 --> 00:59:57,093
as do we, I'm assuming because we're called serving here, that what they're saying is

829
00:59:57,093 --> 01:00:00,463
in line with God's word and is informed and structured and normed by it.

830
01:00:00,463 --> 01:00:06,803
We keep using this word normed that the ultimate authority, God, what he's given and revealed

831
01:00:06,803 --> 01:00:14,877
to us in his word teaches what this teaches, again, not explicitly in entirety.

832
01:00:14,877 --> 01:00:18,314
The Book of Concord doesn't teach the entirety of scripture.

833
01:00:18,314 --> 01:00:22,885
It teaches the entirety of specific topics that were relevant to the people of their

834
01:00:22,885 --> 01:00:23,886
time.

835
01:00:23,886 --> 01:00:24,887
Right.

836
01:00:24,887 --> 01:00:34,330
I mean, the passage you cited highlights the seriousness of what they're doing and that

837
01:00:34,330 --> 01:00:43,272
these are matters that go to our health, faith, salvation, and so forth.

838
01:00:43,272 --> 01:00:48,878
I do think though, with regard to that passage that you cited, there's also something else

839
01:00:48,878 --> 01:00:55,051
at work in terms of what it means to be a theologian.

840
01:00:55,051 --> 01:01:03,226
Note that they use a language that they condemn or reject, stiff necked teachers.

841
01:01:03,226 --> 01:01:10,466
They're not talking about those who are naive or those who are because they lack the proper

842
01:01:10,466 --> 01:01:15,672
training in the language or the right way of talking.

843
01:01:15,672 --> 01:01:18,508
There's a pastor sense here.

844
01:01:18,508 --> 01:01:23,212
If a lay person misspeaks, you don't jump down their throats.

845
01:01:23,212 --> 01:01:27,717
Even if another pastor maybe misspeaks or says something wrong, you don't necessarily

846
01:01:27,717 --> 01:01:32,722
throw out charges of heresy right away.

847
01:01:32,722 --> 01:01:38,327
Stiff-necked implies they're digging in their heels.

848
01:01:38,327 --> 01:01:39,328
They are resisting.

849
01:01:39,328 --> 01:01:40,329
They refuse to listen.

850
01:01:40,329 --> 01:01:41,330
They don't want to talk.

851
01:01:41,330 --> 01:01:44,000
I mean, that's who they're talking about.

852
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:50,807
Not talking about someone who happens to say something that contradicts scripture, but

853
01:01:50,807 --> 01:01:52,008
then they say, did you mean this?

854
01:01:52,008 --> 01:01:54,043
Oh yeah, that's kind of where I meant.

855
01:01:54,043 --> 01:01:55,044
You know what I mean?

856
01:01:55,044 --> 01:01:58,414
It's kind of like the end of Matthew 18, like treat them like a tax collector and sinner

857
01:01:58,414 --> 01:02:00,583
after they've refused to be corrected.

858
01:02:00,583 --> 01:02:01,584
Yeah.

859
01:02:01,584 --> 01:02:09,592
I think that even with, and I sometimes wonder, Lutherans are strongly against decision theology,

860
01:02:09,592 --> 01:02:10,593
obviously.

861
01:02:10,593 --> 01:02:12,228
Evangelicals are very strong.

862
01:02:12,228 --> 01:02:17,333
But I also have a sense that the average evangelical lay person, when they say, I accepted Jesus

863
01:02:17,333 --> 01:02:22,071
in my life, they're in a sense saying that's how they kind of experience it.

864
01:02:22,071 --> 01:02:25,108
They came to faith and then they prayed.

865
01:02:25,108 --> 01:02:28,044
I don't know that they're making a theological statement.

866
01:02:28,044 --> 01:02:31,714
And when you say, well, do you mean that the Holy Spirit brought you to faith?

867
01:02:31,714 --> 01:02:33,149
And yeah, that's what I meant.

868
01:02:33,149 --> 01:02:40,356
Now that's different from a theologian who makes a theological or scriptural case for

869
01:02:40,356 --> 01:02:43,426
free will prior to conversion.

870
01:02:43,426 --> 01:02:49,232
And so these, I think, these are some key Lutheran traits.

871
01:02:49,232 --> 01:02:54,637
Well, we're going to have an episode on the Epitome, but the epitome talks about the will

872
01:02:54,637 --> 01:02:58,374
that way, the will after the fall, and what is it?

873
01:02:58,374 --> 01:03:00,042
It's four stages.

874
01:03:00,042 --> 01:03:04,447
And then after conversion, because of the Holy Spirit, because of new creation, your

875
01:03:04,447 --> 01:03:07,583
will is then transformed to be in line with the will of God.

876
01:03:07,583 --> 01:03:10,253
You begin cooperating with the Holy Spirit to be blunt.

877
01:03:10,253 --> 01:03:13,389
Well, it sounds a little synergistic.

878
01:03:13,389 --> 01:03:15,191
Except that's the actual language.

879
01:03:15,191 --> 01:03:16,926
You begin to cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

880
01:03:16,926 --> 01:03:18,294
That's exactly what they say.

881
01:03:18,294 --> 01:03:23,366
And then we were talking about this, we prerecorded an episode that will be released tomorrow,

882
01:03:23,366 --> 01:03:27,904
what we were talking about, when you get to language in the Book of Concord that you don't

883
01:03:27,904 --> 01:03:31,874
like, you don't reshape it, you don't try to redefine it to make it acceptable to you,

884
01:03:31,874 --> 01:03:33,509
you pause and you let it work on you.

885
01:03:33,509 --> 01:03:38,314
So when you're like, we're not synergists, and then you get to where the writers of the

886
01:03:38,314 --> 01:03:41,851
Formula say, post-conversion, you cooperate with the Holy Spirit, we're like, well, that's

887
01:03:41,851 --> 01:03:42,852
how the synergists talk.

888
01:03:42,852 --> 01:03:45,254
Well, they're not talking about the same thing as the synergists.

889
01:03:45,254 --> 01:03:48,357
There's only so many words we can use to talk about what we're talking about.

890
01:03:48,357 --> 01:03:51,561
So of course, we're going to use some of the same language.

891
01:03:51,561 --> 01:03:55,164
Synergists is one who talks about free will prior to conversion.

892
01:03:55,164 --> 01:03:56,165
Exactly.

893
01:03:56,165 --> 01:03:59,268
And we're talking about explicitly post-conversion.

894
01:03:59,268 --> 01:04:05,141
And so it's those things where again, I like the preface because it says the condition

895
01:04:05,141 --> 01:04:09,512
and they're saying all of the things that are contained in here, we subscribe to, that

896
01:04:09,512 --> 01:04:11,113
they all didn't write from it.

897
01:04:11,113 --> 01:04:18,254
Of course, one of the Martins that I'm becoming, well, I need to become closer and closer to

898
01:04:18,254 --> 01:04:22,825
is Martin Chemnitz, who was one of the Formula writers, student of Luther.

899
01:04:22,825 --> 01:04:27,029
But now by the time they get into the Formula of Concord, Luther has died, kind of the general

900
01:04:27,029 --> 01:04:32,869
of the German Lutheran Reformation, which also causes, because we were all students

901
01:04:32,869 --> 01:04:34,170
of Luther, what do we mean?

902
01:04:34,170 --> 01:04:38,608
And then Philip Melanchthon is kind of in a different place and coming up with-

903
01:04:38,608 --> 01:04:39,609
Luther is the guy.

904
01:04:39,609 --> 01:04:40,610
Yeah.

905
01:04:40,610 --> 01:04:42,612
And you don't contradict the guy.

906
01:04:42,612 --> 01:04:43,613
Yeah.

907
01:04:43,613 --> 01:04:46,048
But once he dies, it's like-

908
01:04:46,048 --> 01:04:47,049
Now what?

909
01:04:47,049 --> 01:04:48,351
Well, you can assume-

910
01:04:48,351 --> 01:04:50,953
You become more bold.

911
01:04:50,953 --> 01:04:57,326
You can assume his lieutenant knew him best and knew what he meant best and is going to

912
01:04:57,326 --> 01:05:02,265
just kind of naturally, well, if Luther's not there, I have the reins because I was

913
01:05:02,265 --> 01:05:03,266
second in command.

914
01:05:03,266 --> 01:05:05,635
And then you have other people like, well, pump the brakes, Melanchthon.

915
01:05:05,635 --> 01:05:11,607
You're kind of straying from what the good doctor said, which isn't something I'm going

916
01:05:11,607 --> 01:05:13,643
to stray from the preface a little bit.

917
01:05:13,643 --> 01:05:19,882
We're getting close to time, I think, for this first session.

918
01:05:19,882 --> 01:05:22,718
But again, we're talking about historical documents, subscription.

919
01:05:22,718 --> 01:05:27,623
These are the books that we hold together as our Book of Concord, as our Articles of

920
01:05:27,623 --> 01:05:28,624
Confession.

921
01:05:28,624 --> 01:05:34,830
And yet throughout history, and even in the time, for instance, we had people who subscribed

922
01:05:34,830 --> 01:05:40,136
to the Formula of Concord, and then you had Lutherans who didn't.

923
01:05:40,136 --> 01:05:43,372
And that's continued to be the case.

924
01:05:43,372 --> 01:05:47,677
Those traditions who didn't subscribe to the Formula then tend to not now.

925
01:05:47,677 --> 01:05:50,813
And you've written a ton of books.

926
01:05:50,813 --> 01:05:54,550
I mentioned one and I only gave Dr. Kolb credit when I mentioned it last time.

927
01:05:54,550 --> 01:05:59,322
So I'll give you credit for being a co-author of The Genius of Luther's Theology.

928
01:05:59,322 --> 01:06:02,358
Anyway, it's a great book.

929
01:06:02,358 --> 01:06:04,894
And then you guys highlight some great things of Martin Luther.

930
01:06:04,894 --> 01:06:12,034
But another book that you wrote, not a systematic book, a historical book is-

931
01:06:12,034 --> 01:06:13,035
Testing the Boundaries?

932
01:06:13,035 --> 01:06:16,872
Testing the  Boundaries is, what is it, Windows of American Lutheranism?

933
01:06:16,872 --> 01:06:23,779
And so you just kind of walk people through what American Lutheranism was like.

934
01:06:23,779 --> 01:06:29,085
And so because we're talking about the preface, the collective of the Lutheran Church and

935
01:06:29,085 --> 01:06:36,792
their agreement to particular articles of faith, can you just briefly highlight in comparison

936
01:06:36,792 --> 01:06:39,495
the importance of the preface then, now?

937
01:06:39,495 --> 01:06:42,832
I mean, then when they were putting this together.

938
01:06:42,832 --> 01:06:50,373
Our Book of Concord, to what it's looked like in America and how it's shaped.

939
01:06:50,373 --> 01:06:54,110
Because it always shocks people when you say, well, the LCMS, we weren't the first Lutherans

940
01:06:54,110 --> 01:06:55,111
here.

941
01:06:55,111 --> 01:06:57,947
We were actually quite late to the Lutheran game in America.

942
01:06:57,947 --> 01:07:00,149
And so it already took shape.

943
01:07:00,149 --> 01:07:04,286
Help our understanders understand why the preface would be such an important document

944
01:07:04,286 --> 01:07:09,492
for us, as opposed to say, kind of the first American Lutheranisms that were trying to

945
01:07:09,492 --> 01:07:14,797
find their space in the world for their time.

946
01:07:14,797 --> 01:07:16,332
I may have to give that a thought.

947
01:07:16,332 --> 01:07:20,236
That's a bit of a challenging question.

948
01:07:20,236 --> 01:07:27,209
Certainly those who came over to America had a number of challenges.

949
01:07:27,209 --> 01:07:30,813
One, separation of church and state.

950
01:07:30,813 --> 01:07:33,416
So the state did not support the church.

951
01:07:33,416 --> 01:07:39,155
It did not legitimize or legalize one particular denomination or religion.

952
01:07:39,155 --> 01:07:44,760
Whereas in Europe, Catholics had legal recognition.

953
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:48,597
Lutherans acquired legal recognition in 1555.

954
01:07:48,597 --> 01:07:55,638
Calvinists acquired legal recognition with the Peace Westphalia, if I recall.

955
01:07:55,638 --> 01:08:01,043
But folks like the Anabaptists, Mennonites, they never got legal recognition.

956
01:08:01,043 --> 01:08:04,513
And so they tend to be persecuted both by the state and by the church.

957
01:08:04,513 --> 01:08:12,755
So now you come to America and you don't have that church-state connection.

958
01:08:12,755 --> 01:08:15,524
And so Lutherans are having to figure out.

959
01:08:15,524 --> 01:08:19,228
And when you had that church-state connection, there was sort of a legal dimension to subscription.

960
01:08:19,228 --> 01:08:24,533
I was going to say, that's a second kind of component to some of these documents, right?

961
01:08:24,533 --> 01:08:28,604
As a adopted, as a legal confession of faith.

962
01:08:28,604 --> 01:08:32,508
The prince said, you're going to subscribe if you want to be a pastor in my territory.

963
01:08:32,508 --> 01:08:34,510
Okay.

964
01:08:34,510 --> 01:08:36,278
And you don't have that when you get to America.

965
01:08:36,278 --> 01:08:41,684
And so now Lutherans are having to sort of think, so what does subscription mean?

966
01:08:41,684 --> 01:08:48,991
And how do we appropriate and make use of these confessions in this new context?

967
01:08:48,991 --> 01:08:58,567
And given the fact that they're also 400 years of separation and you're dating maybe with

968
01:08:58,567 --> 01:09:04,306
some assumptions like you had among early Lutherans in the East.

969
01:09:04,306 --> 01:09:10,679
Well, think about it, once you became English, there were no Lutheran materials in English.

970
01:09:10,679 --> 01:09:16,785
You don't have Luther's works translated until the 20th century into English.

971
01:09:16,785 --> 01:09:21,790
Small Catechism, maybe 1817, Augsburg Confession about the same time.

972
01:09:21,790 --> 01:09:24,793
And that's about it.

973
01:09:24,793 --> 01:09:29,932
So you're relying on English materials for theological training and that leads in any

974
01:09:29,932 --> 01:09:32,835
number of different directions.

975
01:09:32,835 --> 01:09:38,841
So when those kind of get established and then you're thinking, well, maybe in America,

976
01:09:38,841 --> 01:09:46,215
fresh stars, we can have sort of an American, a unique American, I shouldn't say unique,

977
01:09:46,215 --> 01:09:56,091
an American Lutheranism, maybe an American Christianity that isn't burdened by the conflicts

978
01:09:56,091 --> 01:10:01,897
of the church in the old world.

979
01:10:01,897 --> 01:10:06,135
And so those kinds of things factor into like, okay, so what do we do with these?

980
01:10:06,135 --> 01:10:16,212
Are they simply going to perpetuate the old battles or distinctions or hinder the growth

981
01:10:16,212 --> 01:10:23,285
of the church in America and the possibility of...

982
01:10:23,285 --> 01:10:27,957
Samuel Simon Schmucker, for example, is the one who had this vision of an American Lutheranism

983
01:10:27,957 --> 01:10:34,029
or maybe even a pan-Protestant unity.

984
01:10:34,029 --> 01:10:39,602
And that could be achieved in America where it had not been achieved in Europe.

985
01:10:39,602 --> 01:10:46,041
So all those things are kind of feeding into Lutherans struggling to figure out what do

986
01:10:46,041 --> 01:10:47,042
we do with these documents?

987
01:10:47,042 --> 01:10:49,311
How do we appropriate them?

988
01:10:49,311 --> 01:10:52,147
And that gives rise to different answers.

989
01:10:52,147 --> 01:10:53,449
Sure.

990
01:10:53,449 --> 01:10:57,853
Yeah, there's so much that goes on there.

991
01:10:57,853 --> 01:10:59,488
We could go a lot of different directions with that.

992
01:10:59,488 --> 01:11:06,161
I've always been fascinated by this question just because I feel like that there's never

993
01:11:06,161 --> 01:11:10,399
been an answer to that question about what does it mean to be Lutheran in America?

994
01:11:10,399 --> 01:11:15,871
There've just been lots of different pathways and you seem, even within our own church body,

995
01:11:15,871 --> 01:11:21,143
to see a lot of conflict because in my opinion at least, different people are trying to answer

996
01:11:21,143 --> 01:11:23,779
that question in different ways.

997
01:11:23,779 --> 01:11:29,451
At the very least, I always say about this the other day, I think I made a test question

998
01:11:29,451 --> 01:11:30,452
actually.

999
01:11:30,452 --> 01:11:36,025
At the very least, I think the doctrine of a church that is provided in the Augsburg

1000
01:11:36,025 --> 01:11:41,930
Confession Apology, Article 7, is about the Church.

1001
01:11:41,930 --> 01:11:45,868
Article 15 is about the practices and traditions of the Church.

1002
01:11:45,868 --> 01:11:51,407
I think those two places are where you have to start in terms of what is the identity

1003
01:11:51,407 --> 01:11:54,209
of the Lutheran Church?

1004
01:11:54,209 --> 01:12:03,852
Because they make it very clear the Lutheran church's identity is not defined by ritual,

1005
01:12:03,852 --> 01:12:08,524
by traditions, or anything like that.

1006
01:12:08,524 --> 01:12:13,696
It's defined by the promise of the gospel.

1007
01:12:13,696 --> 01:12:15,631
Given in Word and sacrament.

1008
01:12:15,631 --> 01:12:18,033
That's probably where I would start.

1009
01:12:18,033 --> 01:12:23,439
So where the differences will come in are going to go to the question of Lutheran unity.

1010
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:24,440
Right.

1011
01:12:24,440 --> 01:12:34,917
And to that end, they all wrestle with what does it mean to find unity in Word and Sacrament?

1012
01:12:34,917 --> 01:12:39,955
Did you find that in a minimal way, minimalist way, or a maximist way, etc.?

1013
01:12:39,955 --> 01:12:41,423
Story for another day.

1014
01:12:41,423 --> 01:12:42,424
Sure.

1015
01:12:42,424 --> 01:12:43,425
Yeah.

1016
01:12:43,425 --> 01:12:49,998
And it's such an interesting thing because again, on the one hand, they say themselves

1017
01:12:49,998 --> 01:12:54,570
that the rites and traditions, traditions are things that are passed down through history,

1018
01:12:54,570 --> 01:12:55,771
aren't the things that define us.

1019
01:12:55,771 --> 01:13:02,010
And yet when I was going through this term in class, when I was reading the preface,

1020
01:13:02,010 --> 01:13:08,717
it's one of those things where I used to try to say that the church of today shouldn't

1021
01:13:08,717 --> 01:13:12,688
be burdened by the context of the Reformation.

1022
01:13:12,688 --> 01:13:19,561
As in we've inherited a lot of trauma, struggle, challenges, fighting, and things like that.

1023
01:13:19,561 --> 01:13:26,402
And at what point are we going to let some of that go?

1024
01:13:26,402 --> 01:13:28,604
But we can't ignore the fact that we've inherited it.

1025
01:13:28,604 --> 01:13:29,605
No, I agree.

1026
01:13:29,605 --> 01:13:30,606
You're right.

1027
01:13:30,606 --> 01:13:31,607
So we can't let it go.

1028
01:13:31,607 --> 01:13:33,876
We can continue to wrestle with it.

1029
01:13:33,876 --> 01:13:36,278
We can continue to deal with it.

1030
01:13:36,278 --> 01:13:39,548
As I grow up and mature a little bit, it's not about letting it go and forgetting about

1031
01:13:39,548 --> 01:13:40,549
it.

1032
01:13:40,549 --> 01:13:48,056
It's not letting it stop us from A, being the church today and advancing the gospel

1033
01:13:48,056 --> 01:13:50,092
for the sake of the next generation.

1034
01:13:50,092 --> 01:13:51,093
I agree.

1035
01:13:51,093 --> 01:14:04,072
I wonder if there is a parallel that, you know, I think my ancestors immigrated in the

1036
01:14:04,072 --> 01:14:05,073
20th century.

1037
01:14:05,073 --> 01:14:12,147
But I wonder if there's a parallel that when you move to a city or a state or something,

1038
01:14:12,147 --> 01:14:22,624
there is a sense where you become part of that city's past history.

1039
01:14:22,624 --> 01:14:25,961
That you, in a sense, inherit as well.

1040
01:14:25,961 --> 01:14:32,201
And that becomes the context for you as part of that community, wrestling with where do

1041
01:14:32,201 --> 01:14:33,202
we go forward?

1042
01:14:33,202 --> 01:14:34,203
Right.

1043
01:14:34,203 --> 01:14:38,073
I mean, does that sort of make sense of what you're talking about?

1044
01:14:38,073 --> 01:14:40,242
Or is that where you're heading?

1045
01:14:40,242 --> 01:14:44,546
So over the last year, I've been serving a vacancy.

1046
01:14:44,546 --> 01:14:46,482
And as I stepped in, they were still a plant.

1047
01:14:46,482 --> 01:14:48,150
And then a few months later, they chartered.

1048
01:14:48,150 --> 01:14:54,289
Well, as they were chartering, many of the members were new to Lutheranism.

1049
01:14:54,289 --> 01:14:59,795
And when I stepped in, some of them were new to the idea of becoming Lutheran and much

1050
01:14:59,795 --> 01:15:04,099
more surprised by becoming a member of the LCMS.

1051
01:15:04,099 --> 01:15:05,834
And then they were like, well, what's the LCMS?

1052
01:15:05,834 --> 01:15:10,172
And they looked it up and they were like, oh, wait.

1053
01:15:10,172 --> 01:15:11,173
Right.

1054
01:15:11,173 --> 01:15:14,409
Because we say a lot of things about a lot of different things.

1055
01:15:14,409 --> 01:15:20,015
And people, if you haven't grown up and are dear Synod, and I say that with all genuineness,

1056
01:15:20,015 --> 01:15:26,255
we take hard stance against things that are very important.

1057
01:15:26,255 --> 01:15:30,292
And then we struggle to take stance of some things that are very important.

1058
01:15:30,292 --> 01:15:31,360
We're just not infallible.

1059
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:33,295
And so people were picking up on that.

1060
01:15:33,295 --> 01:15:35,731
And I had to say, wait a second.

1061
01:15:35,731 --> 01:15:40,536
First and foremost, our stance on everything isn't what makes us Lutheran.

1062
01:15:40,536 --> 01:15:43,238
The things that make us Lutheran are supposed to help us take those stance.

1063
01:15:43,238 --> 01:15:44,239
Oh, nice.

1064
01:15:44,239 --> 01:15:45,674
And here are the things that make us Lutheran.

1065
01:15:45,674 --> 01:15:47,376
And it was the Small Catechism.

1066
01:15:47,376 --> 01:15:55,350
Like this is the very basic nature of what we believe in these 15 pages.

1067
01:15:55,350 --> 01:15:56,351
We would talk about the explanations.

1068
01:15:56,351 --> 01:16:01,056
we add modern contextual questions that come about from these things.

1069
01:16:01,056 --> 01:16:05,394
I was like, but these things, these things are what we believe, teach and confess.

1070
01:16:05,394 --> 01:16:10,566
And once we started going through a Small Catechism and our understanding, I started,

1071
01:16:10,566 --> 01:16:11,967
and this is what I love about the Small Catechism.

1072
01:16:11,967 --> 01:16:13,268
And I was, I was taking a risk.

1073
01:16:13,268 --> 01:16:17,039
I was like, I'm not going to start with the 10 commandments.

1074
01:16:17,039 --> 01:16:20,442
Not because I'm afraid once we get there, we're going to be afraid of the law, but I

1075
01:16:20,442 --> 01:16:25,847
wanted them to understand the churches where I wanted them to understand who these 10 commandments

1076
01:16:25,847 --> 01:16:27,616
were coming from first.

1077
01:16:27,616 --> 01:16:31,853
This is God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

1078
01:16:31,853 --> 01:16:33,388
And this is what he means for us.

1079
01:16:33,388 --> 01:16:39,895
And again, these, these creeds, this Apostles Creed is Lutheran, but it comes from the Church

1080
01:16:39,895 --> 01:16:42,064
of old who were struggling.

1081
01:16:42,064 --> 01:16:43,732
The question of their day was who is God?

1082
01:16:43,732 --> 01:16:47,202
And that's why they wrote the creeds and not the Book of Concord.

1083
01:16:47,202 --> 01:16:50,372
And then once we got to, we started thinking about those things and they were thinking

1084
01:16:50,372 --> 01:16:54,242
about people who were close to them, who were on the outside, who were kind of, they're

1085
01:16:54,242 --> 01:16:56,612
looking at the 10 commandments and things like that.

1086
01:16:56,612 --> 01:16:57,613
And what do we do?

1087
01:16:57,613 --> 01:17:05,354
It makes it a little more, not easier to deal with, but just more approachable in your faith

1088
01:17:05,354 --> 01:17:06,355
life.

1089
01:17:06,355 --> 01:17:07,356
Yeah.

1090
01:17:07,356 --> 01:17:11,193
And it makes it, it actually makes it something that you can struggle with as opposed to something

1091
01:17:11,193 --> 01:17:12,828
that you're going to reject.

1092
01:17:12,828 --> 01:17:19,668
You know, it occurred to me too, since, you know, you deal with perspective students and

1093
01:17:19,668 --> 01:17:21,470
so forth.

1094
01:17:21,470 --> 01:17:26,608
Any pastor that goes to a congregation is stepping into the history of that congregation.

1095
01:17:26,608 --> 01:17:32,047
Inherits the history of the congregation, the conflicts of the congregation, the emphases

1096
01:17:32,047 --> 01:17:33,915
of the congregation.

1097
01:17:33,915 --> 01:17:42,891
You can't ignore it, but you can't let, but at the same time, what shapes you, it doesn't

1098
01:17:42,891 --> 01:17:44,292
necessarily stop it.

1099
01:17:44,292 --> 01:17:45,293
Yeah.

1100
01:17:45,293 --> 01:17:51,166
You know, you're living within that, even as you're moving forward.

1101
01:17:51,166 --> 01:17:55,504
And no matter what you do, you'll be the history for somebody down the road, what they step

1102
01:17:55,504 --> 01:17:57,205
into also.

1103
01:17:57,205 --> 01:17:58,507
And that's exactly what I told them.

1104
01:17:58,507 --> 01:18:01,743
I was like, all right, so now you're part of this church though, and you're looking

1105
01:18:01,743 --> 01:18:03,945
around and you're seeing things that you don't like.

1106
01:18:03,945 --> 01:18:05,547
I was like, you're not alone.

1107
01:18:05,547 --> 01:18:10,652
There are people who can trace their history all the way back to Luther himself.

1108
01:18:10,652 --> 01:18:13,822
And they look around and there's things that they're struggling with as well.

1109
01:18:13,822 --> 01:18:19,761
And I was like, we have a way as a Synod of addressing those things.

1110
01:18:19,761 --> 01:18:23,331
If you want to take part in that, I'll show you the way.

1111
01:18:23,331 --> 01:18:28,170
I let everybody argue and I'm perfectly happy dealing with the consequences and living in

1112
01:18:28,170 --> 01:18:30,639
the new reality, no matter what that means.

1113
01:18:30,639 --> 01:18:35,177
Even if it's some things I might disagree with, I tell people all the time, I'm never

1114
01:18:35,177 --> 01:18:39,314
going to leave the Synod, no matter how bad it gets.

1115
01:18:39,314 --> 01:18:40,315
It's not as bad.

1116
01:18:40,315 --> 01:18:41,483
And that's the other thing I told them.

1117
01:18:41,483 --> 01:18:47,122
I was like, you can make anything look any way you want it.

1118
01:18:47,122 --> 01:18:50,292
And if you're only going to look at the parts you don't like, yeah, it's going to look terrible.

1119
01:18:50,292 --> 01:18:56,331
But here's all these other things about not just Lutheranism, but again, about our Synod

1120
01:18:56,331 --> 01:18:59,367
that are good.

1121
01:18:59,367 --> 01:19:01,636
Some are great, some are wonderful.

1122
01:19:01,636 --> 01:19:07,309
And then again, now that you're a part of it, yeah, you've inherited all of our blemishes,

1123
01:19:07,309 --> 01:19:13,615
but you've also inherited this rich history of the gospel that you can only find in confession

1124
01:19:13,615 --> 01:19:16,985
in this place, I believe.

1125
01:19:16,985 --> 01:19:22,224
And as you're looking at the blemishes, if you want to do something towards that, you're

1126
01:19:22,224 --> 01:19:23,558
going to put energy into that.

1127
01:19:23,558 --> 01:19:25,227
Well, there's a system for that.

1128
01:19:25,227 --> 01:19:28,029
And you're now part of the body.

1129
01:19:28,029 --> 01:19:31,066
You get to try to contribute to it towards those things.

1130
01:19:31,066 --> 01:19:32,067
Exactly.

1131
01:19:32,067 --> 01:19:36,505
Well, this last part of the conversation kind of makes me think about how important, well,

1132
01:19:36,505 --> 01:19:40,842
first how overwhelming this book might look when you first pick it up, but how important

1133
01:19:40,842 --> 01:19:47,082
it is for all people, not just for the pastors to read it and to see it.

1134
01:19:47,082 --> 01:19:51,553
Because it's easy sometimes to get worked up about things that you don't like because

1135
01:19:51,553 --> 01:19:56,024
you've only gotten the cliff notes version or you haven't seen the full bit.

1136
01:19:56,024 --> 01:20:01,663
But it's worth everybody's time to take time in it and read it and try to kind of understand

1137
01:20:01,663 --> 01:20:05,967
what's there and what it is actually that we confess.

1138
01:20:05,967 --> 01:20:11,573
I think about how, you know, I think when I was a kid, I sort of knew that this existed

1139
01:20:11,573 --> 01:20:17,078
someplace but really wasn't familiar with what was in it until I got here.

1140
01:20:17,078 --> 01:20:23,952
And there's just a treasure trove of stuff throughout the pages of this book.

1141
01:20:23,952 --> 01:20:28,190
And it's, it is very pastoral.

1142
01:20:28,190 --> 01:20:33,161
Again, everything that they were doing, again, wasn't just to make us think about things.

1143
01:20:33,161 --> 01:20:36,731
And it wasn't just for the sake of, we're smarter than you.

1144
01:20:36,731 --> 01:20:39,868
It was, there are real people out there.

1145
01:20:39,868 --> 01:20:42,304
We're concerned for your soul.

1146
01:20:42,304 --> 01:20:45,974
With real problems, and God has called us to care for them.

1147
01:20:45,974 --> 01:20:52,747
And what we're currently doing, the penance, indulgences, we're not caring for their souls.

1148
01:20:52,747 --> 01:20:57,686
We are taxing them for something that's been given to them freely already, not by us, by

1149
01:20:57,686 --> 01:20:58,687
God.

1150
01:20:58,687 --> 01:20:59,688
Well said.

1151
01:20:59,688 --> 01:21:01,990
And so that is, that's the heart of it.

1152
01:21:01,990 --> 01:21:07,429
And so even then, I, if you're not a pastor, you're not a church worker at all, you read

1153
01:21:07,429 --> 01:21:12,868
it, hopefully, you can then begin to understand maybe your pastor a little bit more and what

1154
01:21:12,868 --> 01:21:21,743
he's being called to do and is hoping to accomplish is not, there's stuff that come with different

1155
01:21:21,743 --> 01:21:26,348
contexts and different parishes, but ultimately, he's trying to care for your soul.

1156
01:21:26,348 --> 01:21:32,854
And again, to assure you and comfort you that no matter your current station or condition

1157
01:21:32,854 --> 01:21:40,228
of what's going on in your life in the world, that your salvation and your source of all

1158
01:21:40,228 --> 01:21:42,197
goodness, God is firm.

1159
01:21:42,197 --> 01:21:47,369
Seems like a good place to, yeah, to wrap up.

1160
01:21:47,369 --> 01:21:52,173
Yeah, you know, we put these things together and I never know, I'm the one who put together,

1161
01:21:52,173 --> 01:21:54,843
I was like, oh, well, the preface is part of the Book of Concord.

1162
01:21:54,843 --> 01:21:55,944
How much are we going to talk about it?

1163
01:21:55,944 --> 01:22:01,650
Oh, I think we did a good job because it just context scenario, tap ourselves in the back

1164
01:22:01,650 --> 01:22:04,352
a little bit.

1165
01:22:04,352 --> 01:22:08,957
One thing that happens towards the end of every episode is we have this little segment

1166
01:22:08,957 --> 01:22:13,862
called Right for the Pickin' or Leave it on the Tree, where we just come up with a bunch

1167
01:22:13,862 --> 01:22:16,431
of random things.

1168
01:22:16,431 --> 01:22:18,767
And if you like it, it's Right for the Pickin'.

1169
01:22:18,767 --> 01:22:21,903
If you don't like it, it's Leave it on the Tree.

1170
01:22:21,903 --> 01:22:29,744
And yeah, we just go through them, Dale Ward, our producer sent me some today.

1171
01:22:29,744 --> 01:22:33,648
I'm just going to go off of his list because it's actually pretty solid.

1172
01:22:33,648 --> 01:22:34,649
Thanks Dale.

1173
01:22:34,649 --> 01:22:37,519
Okay, so here we go, Right for the Pickin' or Leave it on the Tree.

1174
01:22:37,519 --> 01:22:39,487
Oh, this was in a text month.

1175
01:22:39,487 --> 01:22:44,526
Anyway, cottage cheese.

1176
01:22:44,526 --> 01:22:47,329
That face tells me it's Leave it on the Tree.

1177
01:22:47,329 --> 01:22:48,730
Leave it on the Tree?

1178
01:22:48,730 --> 01:22:50,031
I'm all right with it.

1179
01:22:50,031 --> 01:22:55,403
It's not a go-to all the time, but if we have it at home, I'll eat it.

1180
01:22:55,403 --> 01:22:56,805
I'm going to be honest with you.

1181
01:22:56,805 --> 01:22:59,674
It is Leave it on the Tree for me as well.

1182
01:22:59,674 --> 01:23:02,677
It's not like disgusting to me.

1183
01:23:02,677 --> 01:23:03,678
Borderline for me.

1184
01:23:03,678 --> 01:23:08,149
But I don't, I genuinely couldn't tell you the last time I ate cottage cheese and if

1185
01:23:08,149 --> 01:23:09,250
it wasn't in front of me.

1186
01:23:09,250 --> 01:23:12,253
There are other things like people like, it'll be like, sometimes it's part of like a party

1187
01:23:12,253 --> 01:23:13,254
tray.

1188
01:23:13,254 --> 01:23:14,255
Yeah, interesting.

1189
01:23:14,255 --> 01:23:16,391
Like I hadn't even thought about that.

1190
01:23:16,391 --> 01:23:18,727
But when you made that face, I was like, yeah, it's not.

1191
01:23:18,727 --> 01:23:22,731
It's a weird texture and it's like a weird thing to eat.

1192
01:23:22,731 --> 01:23:30,638
I typically, things that come about as byproducts of something else, I usually just leave them

1193
01:23:30,638 --> 01:23:31,639
alone.

1194
01:23:31,639 --> 01:23:35,310
Like I get not wanting to be wasteful and I get a day in the age, in all days and ages,

1195
01:23:35,310 --> 01:23:36,311
we shouldn't be wasteful.

1196
01:23:36,311 --> 01:23:44,352
And if we can use something in, maybe we should, but yeah, cottage cheese is just, anyway,

1197
01:23:44,352 --> 01:23:48,556
if the milk is served its purpose, just let it go.

1198
01:23:48,556 --> 01:23:53,528
Well, I thought about this one because summer is here.

1199
01:23:53,528 --> 01:24:00,468
And because my daughters and my wife are obsessed with them, but snow cones.

1200
01:24:00,468 --> 01:24:01,469
I like those.

1201
01:24:01,469 --> 01:24:03,271
Right for the picking.

1202
01:24:03,271 --> 01:24:04,272
Yeah.

1203
01:24:04,272 --> 01:24:05,273
Same here.

1204
01:24:05,273 --> 01:24:07,976
I don't quite go out of my way for them, but I don't think I've ever lived in a place that

1205
01:24:07,976 --> 01:24:11,413
has as many snow cone stands as St. Louis, but it's hot.

1206
01:24:11,413 --> 01:24:14,349
It is about to get hot place to go.

1207
01:24:14,349 --> 01:24:19,554
So like, I mean, it's, some of them are like Hawaiian shaved ice, which is everybody's

1208
01:24:19,554 --> 01:24:21,256
like, oh, it's not a snow cone.

1209
01:24:21,256 --> 01:24:24,192
And like if you grind the ice as opposed to shaving it, you're going to get a different

1210
01:24:24,192 --> 01:24:25,727
texture in the snow cone.

1211
01:24:25,727 --> 01:24:27,495
So like one is fluffy and edible.

1212
01:24:27,495 --> 01:24:31,666
The other one you pour the syrup on it gets like hard cause it freezes again.

1213
01:24:31,666 --> 01:24:35,370
So I guess there is a difference, but I don't know many places that use that really fine

1214
01:24:35,370 --> 01:24:36,371
crushed ice anymore.

1215
01:24:36,371 --> 01:24:37,939
Everybody's shaves it cause they just know better.

1216
01:24:37,939 --> 01:24:43,311
But yeah, there's like a, well anyway, I'm a big candy person.

1217
01:24:43,311 --> 01:24:47,048
So if you have something that's very sugary, minus chocolate chocolate, it's kind of me

1218
01:24:47,048 --> 01:24:48,049
to me.

1219
01:24:48,049 --> 01:24:49,050
You're all for it.

1220
01:24:49,050 --> 01:24:50,051
I'm definitely all for snow cones.

1221
01:24:50,051 --> 01:24:51,052
Yeah.

1222
01:24:51,052 --> 01:24:52,053
Especially on a nice hot summer day.

1223
01:24:52,053 --> 01:24:56,591
Well, and I found out cause my brother is serving down in New Orleans that a New Orleans

1224
01:24:56,591 --> 01:25:00,428
sort of has that snowy take on, on snow cones.

1225
01:25:00,428 --> 01:25:06,968
They call them snowballs and it's kind of that finer ground ice.

1226
01:25:06,968 --> 01:25:09,270
And so that's pretty, pretty good too.

1227
01:25:09,270 --> 01:25:12,407
And there's a place that does that down south on 55.

1228
01:25:12,407 --> 01:25:16,144
Another like a New Orleans style snowball stand.

1229
01:25:16,144 --> 01:25:17,779
Oh, interesting.

1230
01:25:17,779 --> 01:25:18,780
Hmm.

1231
01:25:18,780 --> 01:25:20,648
All right.

1232
01:25:20,648 --> 01:25:21,649
You started talking about New Orleans.

1233
01:25:21,649 --> 01:25:23,785
I was like, I bet you can get them alcoholic too.

1234
01:25:23,785 --> 01:25:25,854
I'm sure you probably could.

1235
01:25:25,854 --> 01:25:28,423
All right.

1236
01:25:28,423 --> 01:25:31,493
Right for the pickin or leave it on the tree playing golf.

1237
01:25:31,493 --> 01:25:34,129
Leave it on the tree.

1238
01:25:34,129 --> 01:25:37,699
Not a big golfer.

1239
01:25:37,699 --> 01:25:53,314
I tried, you know, at one time, but unless you go on a consistent basis, it's hard to

1240
01:25:53,314 --> 01:25:55,650
get very good.

1241
01:25:55,650 --> 01:25:59,888
It's not cheap.

1242
01:25:59,888 --> 01:26:06,194
And I just hate the pressure of having to hit the ball quickly because there are people

1243
01:26:06,194 --> 01:26:07,629
waiting behind me.

1244
01:26:07,629 --> 01:26:08,630
Sure.

1245
01:26:08,630 --> 01:26:10,932
I respect that.

1246
01:26:10,932 --> 01:26:12,267
It's ripe for the pickin for me.

1247
01:26:12,267 --> 01:26:13,268
I enjoy it.

1248
01:26:13,268 --> 01:26:17,572
I haven't had a whole lot of time to do it lately, it seems like, but we were out at

1249
01:26:17,572 --> 01:26:19,741
Top Golf last weekend just hitting balls.

1250
01:26:19,741 --> 01:26:21,976
And that was, that was fun.

1251
01:26:21,976 --> 01:26:25,647
There's none of the stress or pressure of being in front of people, but yeah, getting

1252
01:26:25,647 --> 01:26:30,585
out on the course on a nice day, not too hot and enjoying being outside.

1253
01:26:30,585 --> 01:26:32,187
I'm here for it.

1254
01:26:32,187 --> 01:26:33,354
It is leave it on the tree for me.

1255
01:26:33,354 --> 01:26:38,993
So like you said, like barriers for entry expense and things like that.

1256
01:26:38,993 --> 01:26:43,665
And then once you get out, like I've done scrambles before and just being one person

1257
01:26:43,665 --> 01:26:46,367
on the team, I'm always out there just for social purposes.

1258
01:26:46,367 --> 01:26:48,803
Like somebody's like, let's talk about this thing.

1259
01:26:48,803 --> 01:26:49,804
Oh, there's this scramble.

1260
01:26:49,804 --> 01:26:50,805
Come play golf with us.

1261
01:26:50,805 --> 01:26:54,375
I'm like, if this is how I can gain an ear, fine.

1262
01:26:54,375 --> 01:27:00,315
And out of the 18 holes and however many shots we have, I might have like two that get played.

1263
01:27:00,315 --> 01:27:03,785
Really the last time I went one was out of the bunker.

1264
01:27:03,785 --> 01:27:09,123
I tried it again anyway, but yeah, it's, I would love to, I like, I have an idea of going

1265
01:27:09,123 --> 01:27:11,226
to Top Golf because it looks fun.

1266
01:27:11,226 --> 01:27:15,296
I like the idea of, of Golf, but yeah, it's just a little tiny ball.

1267
01:27:15,296 --> 01:27:18,132
I think it's the most difficult sport in the world to be honest with you.

1268
01:27:18,132 --> 01:27:19,133
I don't think anything's harder.

1269
01:27:19,133 --> 01:27:20,134
Yeah.

1270
01:27:20,134 --> 01:27:21,970
Oh, I'll tell you what I don't enjoy.

1271
01:27:21,970 --> 01:27:23,504
And that's watching Golf on TV.

1272
01:27:23,504 --> 01:27:28,543
My dad and grandpa would love to watch golf on TV all the time.

1273
01:27:28,543 --> 01:27:31,246
I don't think that's boring.

1274
01:27:31,246 --> 01:27:33,248
I don't mind that.

1275
01:27:33,248 --> 01:27:34,249
Sure.

1276
01:27:34,249 --> 01:27:35,250
Oh yeah.

1277
01:27:35,250 --> 01:27:42,123
So, um, right for the pick and leave it on the tree smartphones as opposed to one that

1278
01:27:42,123 --> 01:27:46,995
just like makes phone calls and is just a phone.

1279
01:27:46,995 --> 01:27:50,031
No opinion.

1280
01:27:50,031 --> 01:27:54,736
This one came to mind for me because my, uh, former associate pastor was on campus a couple

1281
01:27:54,736 --> 01:27:58,373
of weeks ago for call day because they were getting a new candidate and he's ditched his

1282
01:27:58,373 --> 01:28:04,579
iPhone and has gone back to one of those ones that just makes phone calls and does texting.

1283
01:28:04,579 --> 01:28:07,015
And there was a part of me that was jealous about that.

1284
01:28:07,015 --> 01:28:10,551
And another part of me that was like, I don't know how I would make it through the week

1285
01:28:10,551 --> 01:28:12,954
without all of the functions my phone has.

1286
01:28:12,954 --> 01:28:22,063
So I'd have to say that's right for the picking, but, um, with a tinge of regret probably.

1287
01:28:22,063 --> 01:28:24,165
Uh, it's right for the pickin for me.

1288
01:28:24,165 --> 01:28:25,166
And I'm not going to lie.

1289
01:28:25,166 --> 01:28:26,167
I am all in.

1290
01:28:26,167 --> 01:28:32,674
I genuinely do not know how I would operate without my, actually I do know, but luckily

1291
01:28:32,674 --> 01:28:35,009
it happened on, I went, we went on vacation.

1292
01:28:35,009 --> 01:28:38,913
My wife's Dorothy, her parents are missionaries in the Dominican Republic first day trying

1293
01:28:38,913 --> 01:28:45,453
to do the cool thing where like, uh, uh, like the lanyard that's waterproof to take pictures

1294
01:28:45,453 --> 01:28:48,890
of the beach, got hit by a wave trying to save Johnny, knocked my phone off my neck.

1295
01:28:48,890 --> 01:28:51,392
It's somewhere in the Atlantic ocean.

1296
01:28:51,392 --> 01:28:53,194
That's day one of our vacation.

1297
01:28:53,194 --> 01:28:56,064
And I had my phone all, it was a new phone offer.

1298
01:28:56,064 --> 01:29:03,071
I think two weeks and the week without my phone on vacation was actually relieving because

1299
01:29:03,071 --> 01:29:06,474
I did my vacation and wasn't thinking about stuff.

1300
01:29:06,474 --> 01:29:07,475
Right.

1301
01:29:07,475 --> 01:29:14,649
Um, but I went on a work trip, a work trip once and forgot my wallet at home, but I had

1302
01:29:14,649 --> 01:29:16,684
my phone, which has credit card and stuff like that.

1303
01:29:16,684 --> 01:29:18,086
So it wasn't a big deal.

1304
01:29:18,086 --> 01:29:20,221
I, it's such an essential thing.

1305
01:29:20,221 --> 01:29:24,392
It's too convenient for me to give it up, but I can't the distraction part of it sometimes

1306
01:29:24,392 --> 01:29:25,493
I'm like, Oh man.

1307
01:29:25,493 --> 01:29:29,263
So people like Jeff Gibbs, one emeritus professor, he doesn't even have a cell phone.

1308
01:29:29,263 --> 01:29:30,865
I admire it.

1309
01:29:30,865 --> 01:29:34,736
Um, I just can't, uh, me myself.

1310
01:29:34,736 --> 01:29:37,672
But anyway, uh, all right.

1311
01:29:37,672 --> 01:29:42,243
Uh, last one for me, right for the pickin or leave it on the tree.

1312
01:29:42,243 --> 01:29:44,612
Oh, this is interesting.

1313
01:29:44,612 --> 01:29:47,548
Movie soundtracks for just like listening.

1314
01:29:47,548 --> 01:29:49,884
Haven't done that.

1315
01:29:49,884 --> 01:29:50,885
Okay.

1316
01:29:50,885 --> 01:29:55,456
Well, just leave it on the tree then.

1317
01:29:55,456 --> 01:29:56,457
Yeah.

1318
01:29:56,457 --> 01:29:59,093
If it's straight up movies, I would say leave it on the tree.

1319
01:29:59,093 --> 01:30:03,698
If it was like a musical or something that told part of the story, maybe I would, but

1320
01:30:03,698 --> 01:30:05,833
just the movie, like instrumental soundtrack.

1321
01:30:05,833 --> 01:30:06,834
Yeah.

1322
01:30:06,834 --> 01:30:08,336
I haven't really gotten into it.

1323
01:30:08,336 --> 01:30:09,771
It's leave it on the tree for me as well.

1324
01:30:09,771 --> 01:30:14,409
There's a, there's a show called Parks and Rec and there's a character on there and like

1325
01:30:14,409 --> 01:30:19,180
he has a, like a CD binder and he has like how soundtracks and there's like, Oh, it's

1326
01:30:19,180 --> 01:30:24,385
like you're, the director's picking a, like his favorite playlist for you.

1327
01:30:24,385 --> 01:30:27,388
It was lame when he said it in the show and that's how I feel about him as well.

1328
01:30:27,388 --> 01:30:28,389
But yeah, they're leave it on the tree.

1329
01:30:28,389 --> 01:30:29,390
Hasn't gotten any better.

1330
01:30:29,390 --> 01:30:33,628
No, I mean, cause they just, they usually, if they have good music, you don't need the

1331
01:30:33,628 --> 01:30:34,629
soundtrack.

1332
01:30:34,629 --> 01:30:36,297
You're just gonna get the music.

1333
01:30:36,297 --> 01:30:37,965
But anyway, yeah.

1334
01:30:37,965 --> 01:30:44,472
Well, my last one, uh, right for the pickin or leave it on the tree, mowing the lawn.

1335
01:30:44,472 --> 01:30:47,008
Leave it on the tree.

1336
01:30:47,008 --> 01:30:48,943
I wondered how you were going to answer that.

1337
01:30:48,943 --> 01:30:50,378
My wife loves to mow the lawn.

1338
01:30:50,378 --> 01:30:51,379
I got it.

1339
01:30:51,379 --> 01:30:55,016
Well, I was going to ask for two reasons, right?

1340
01:30:55,016 --> 01:30:57,285
I'm glad we let her do that.

1341
01:30:57,285 --> 01:30:58,286
Interesting thing.

1342
01:30:58,286 --> 01:30:59,687
Um, you don't have to do it.

1343
01:30:59,687 --> 01:31:00,688
Not anymore.

1344
01:31:00,688 --> 01:31:01,689
It is, it is.

1345
01:31:01,689 --> 01:31:03,825
I'll say it really, I love cutting the grass.

1346
01:31:03,825 --> 01:31:07,862
When I, when I was a student here, uh, I worked grounds crew with Gail.

1347
01:31:07,862 --> 01:31:11,899
Anytime I got an opportunity to cut the grass, I would, when I owned a home and I did have

1348
01:31:11,899 --> 01:31:17,171
to cut my grass, like in the summer or like when it's spring, when it's raining, I'll

1349
01:31:17,171 --> 01:31:18,172
do it twice a week.

1350
01:31:18,172 --> 01:31:22,810
I have, I'm the type of person who has like the perfectly edge sidewalk with the gap and

1351
01:31:22,810 --> 01:31:28,449
square and I see then make my grass nice and deep.

1352
01:31:28,449 --> 01:31:34,589
I took my grass very seriously, but, um, I'm taking your course Theology of Creation this

1353
01:31:34,589 --> 01:31:35,590
summer.

1354
01:31:35,590 --> 01:31:39,494
Uh, I actually took an elective on it when I was in the MDiv as well.

1355
01:31:39,494 --> 01:31:43,698
And you were talking about this kind of thing where maybe it was like Francis of Assisi

1356
01:31:43,698 --> 01:31:47,435
is having a conversation with God and he's talking about nature and creation and how

1357
01:31:47,435 --> 01:31:51,506
we're like, we no longer appreciate it even with like grass and he's like, no, like they

1358
01:31:51,506 --> 01:31:53,107
put paths over and they cut it down.

1359
01:31:53,107 --> 01:31:54,208
They don't appreciate creation.

1360
01:31:54,208 --> 01:31:55,209
So that's for a second.

1361
01:31:55,209 --> 01:31:56,210
I thought maybe that might be a reason.

1362
01:31:56,210 --> 01:31:58,379
I'm not like guarding and guarding everything.

1363
01:31:58,379 --> 01:32:07,688
And um, I will admit that when I was in college, I had a job mowing greens.

1364
01:32:07,688 --> 01:32:08,689
Oh yeah.

1365
01:32:08,689 --> 01:32:09,690
I had a golf course.

1366
01:32:09,690 --> 01:32:10,691
Oh, Oh.

1367
01:32:10,691 --> 01:32:14,595
Then I enjoyed cause it was a job where I was outdoors.

1368
01:32:14,595 --> 01:32:15,596
It was quiet.

1369
01:32:15,596 --> 01:32:21,969
And I got to, you know, have this nice riding lawn mower and you know, that was okay.

1370
01:32:21,969 --> 01:32:22,970
Yeah.

1371
01:32:22,970 --> 01:32:25,773
I know we're supposed to take decisive positions on this.

1372
01:32:25,773 --> 01:32:31,245
I'm kind of a both and I love the sort of mindless nature of mowing the lawn, like pop

1373
01:32:31,245 --> 01:32:34,849
on some music and just don't think about anything.

1374
01:32:34,849 --> 01:32:38,286
But uh, we're at the part of the year that stresses me out because the grass is growing

1375
01:32:38,286 --> 01:32:43,257
so fast and I feel like sometimes I can't keep it to where I want it because it'll grow

1376
01:32:43,257 --> 01:32:45,893
faster than I have time to get out there and actually mow it.

1377
01:32:45,893 --> 01:32:49,664
And so once we get a little further into the summer and it kind of simmers down, it'll

1378
01:32:49,664 --> 01:32:50,665
be more, more,

1379
01:32:50,665 --> 01:32:57,471
we're actually slowly replacing our lawn with flowers or other types of plants.

1380
01:32:57,471 --> 01:32:58,472
Sure.

1381
01:32:58,472 --> 01:33:04,178
Um, probably because our backyard is on a hill and it's really hard to mow.

1382
01:33:04,178 --> 01:33:05,413
There's different levels.

1383
01:33:05,413 --> 01:33:09,050
So the backyard is we're getting rid of all the grass.

1384
01:33:09,050 --> 01:33:19,126
We're keeping the front yard because in a suburb you got to keep up grass.

1385
01:33:19,126 --> 01:33:21,896
Keep up the appearances in the front at least.

1386
01:33:21,896 --> 01:33:22,897
Sure.

1387
01:33:22,897 --> 01:33:23,898
Yeah.

1388
01:33:23,898 --> 01:33:24,899
That's all right.

1389
01:33:24,899 --> 01:33:29,303
Uh, well we're wrapping up this first session and I know, uh, we talked a lot about a lot

1390
01:33:29,303 --> 01:33:34,909
of different things, but again, Ben and I kind of opened the idea of a Book of Concord

1391
01:33:34,909 --> 01:33:36,110
last time.

1392
01:33:36,110 --> 01:33:41,148
This time we were talking about the prophets, but again, it's the shape of the Book of Concord.

1393
01:33:41,148 --> 01:33:42,350
What are we doing here?

1394
01:33:42,350 --> 01:33:43,351
What's the topic?

1395
01:33:43,351 --> 01:33:46,454
It's a little bit of, a lot of bit of theology, a little bit of history.

1396
01:33:46,454 --> 01:33:47,455
God's word is important.

1397
01:33:47,455 --> 01:33:49,423
The way we systematize and then how we apply it.

1398
01:33:49,423 --> 01:33:51,125
All of these things come together.

1399
01:33:51,125 --> 01:33:55,630
And so snapshot introduction, we're going to talk about it more in our next segment

1400
01:33:55,630 --> 01:33:59,266
next week where we're going to dive into the three creeds.

1401
01:33:59,266 --> 01:34:04,739
Um, and talking about that, uh, more in depth, each one we'll see.

1402
01:34:04,739 --> 01:34:07,708
I mean, you could talk about one for an entire topic.

1403
01:34:07,708 --> 01:34:10,845
We're going to attempt to talk about all three, what they're doing, why they're doing it and

1404
01:34:10,845 --> 01:34:13,514
things like that, uh, for next time.

1405
01:34:13,514 --> 01:34:19,487
And so, um, if you, if you have your Book of Concord, you're free to open it up and

1406
01:34:19,487 --> 01:34:24,091
follow along with us and in your mind, tell us how wrong we are about everything we're

1407
01:34:24,091 --> 01:34:25,092
saying.

1408
01:34:25,092 --> 01:34:29,430
Um, if you don't have one and you don't want to make the investment, there's a free edition

1409
01:34:29,430 --> 01:34:31,666
bookofconcord.org that you can go in.

1410
01:34:31,666 --> 01:34:36,203
Like a pastor, Slend said, I encourage you to read it because again, this is even if

1411
01:34:36,203 --> 01:34:39,907
you're not a pastor or a teacher, this is what we believe, teach and confess.

1412
01:34:39,907 --> 01:34:44,345
So by nature of being a member of this in it, this is also what you believe, teach and

1413
01:34:44,345 --> 01:34:45,346
confess.

1414
01:34:45,346 --> 01:34:49,650
Uh, and it would definitely help you in your relationships, not only with the church, but

1415
01:34:49,650 --> 01:34:53,220
even with those outside of the church, how do you, you talk about your faith, what you

1416
01:34:53,220 --> 01:34:57,124
believe, who we are as Lutherans to those around us, because, uh, they might become

1417
01:34:57,124 --> 01:34:58,125
interested.

1418
01:34:58,125 --> 01:35:03,297
Um, as you're listening and if you yourself want to come and study the Book of Concord

1419
01:35:03,297 --> 01:35:06,634
to be a pastor, deaconess, you've been thinking about it.

1420
01:35:06,634 --> 01:35:11,305
Don't think too long, submit a request for information so that we can contact you, have

1421
01:35:11,305 --> 01:35:16,010
these conversations with you and walk you through the process of your discernment.

1422
01:35:16,010 --> 01:35:20,214
If you're not thinking about being a pastor, deaconess or a teacher, DCE, but there's somebody

1423
01:35:20,214 --> 01:35:24,752
close to you, you've always said, uh, man, I think there'd be a good pastor someday.

1424
01:35:24,752 --> 01:35:27,988
Even if they're five plant the seed plant to see.

1425
01:35:27,988 --> 01:35:29,323
Don't think about it, just do it.

1426
01:35:29,323 --> 01:35:33,994
You might be that person who is the little nudge, that little encouragement that they

1427
01:35:33,994 --> 01:35:37,498
needed to begin to have a conversation and pursue it for themselves.

1428
01:35:37,498 --> 01:35:39,166
Uh, thank you for joining us today.

1429
01:35:39,166 --> 01:35:41,302
Uh, next week, the three creeds.

1430
01:35:41,302 --> 01:35:43,471
Uh, so thank you for joining us.

1431
01:35:43,471 --> 01:35:45,005
We'll see you next time under the Under the Fig Tree.

1432
01:35:45,005 --> 01:36:01,355
Take care.