WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.025 --> 00:00:16.525 Welcome to Preachers Studio. 2 00:00:16.525 --> 00:00:17.525 My name is David Schmidt. 3 00:00:17.525 --> 00:00:20.825 I hold the Greg H. Benidt Chair of Homiletics and Literature. 4 00:00:20.925 --> 00:00:22.825 And with me, this morning is Dr. 5 00:00:22.825 --> 00:00:28.625 David Maxwell, a professor in our Systematics department and you have 6 00:00:28.625 --> 00:00:32.825 heard the sermon, he offered in Chapel and I'd like to spend some time 7 00:00:32.825 --> 00:00:36.125 talking about preaching, the art of preaching, and that particular 8 00:00:36.125 --> 00:00:37.125 sermon with him. 9 00:00:37.825 --> 00:00:39.825 So, David, thank you for coming. 10 00:00:40.025 --> 00:00:41.025 Thank you, David. 11 00:00:41.925 --> 00:00:43.125 So glad to do this. 12 00:00:43.125 --> 00:00:44.425 I listened to that sermon and 13 00:00:44.825 --> 00:00:48.925 I'm like, people had said you preached one earlier this semester and 14 00:00:48.925 --> 00:00:51.225 everybody said, oh you got to talk to him about that sermon and I 15 00:00:51.225 --> 00:00:54.825 never listened to it because I'm missed Chapel that day and then I heard this 16 00:00:54.825 --> 00:00:54.925 one. 17 00:00:54.925 --> 00:00:57.225 I'm like, oh I want to talk to him about this one. 18 00:00:58.525 --> 00:01:05.725 I think what I when I finished listening to the sermon, the idea that 19 00:01:05.725 --> 00:01:12.725 stuck in my head was this. That I think sometimes you have preachers 20 00:01:12.725 --> 00:01:14.325 that are reflective preachers 21 00:01:15.325 --> 00:01:22.825 and they take a text and they reflect on it, theologically within the, 22 00:01:22.825 --> 00:01:27.325 the entire Canon of scripture within the, the uses of that text in the 23 00:01:27.325 --> 00:01:28.225 church. 24 00:01:28.225 --> 00:01:34.025 And the sermon is really an unfolding of the significance of that 25 00:01:34.025 --> 00:01:34.625 text. 26 00:01:34.625 --> 00:01:37.325 And a way of looking at that text, that would be kind of what I would 27 00:01:37.325 --> 00:01:39.325 call a reflective preacher. 28 00:01:39.625 --> 00:01:43.225 And then you have sometimes you have moments that are very 29 00:01:43.225 --> 00:01:44.425 representational 30 00:01:44.525 --> 00:01:45.425 preachers. 31 00:01:45.425 --> 00:01:51.825 Where their basic goal is to communicate the meaning of this text in 32 00:01:51.825 --> 00:01:55.325 its immediate context its historical context. 33 00:01:55.325 --> 00:01:59.425 And so once they've done that they've accomplished their goal. 34 00:01:59.425 --> 00:02:03.725 They've communicated, this is what the text meant in this century and 35 00:02:03.825 --> 00:02:09.525 this sermon for me was kind of reflective sermon, you were, you know, 36 00:02:09.525 --> 00:02:14.425 you obviously, anchored it in the text, but you really moved out from 37 00:02:14.525 --> 00:02:18.425 that text into a lot of other theological issues. And I was just 38 00:02:18.425 --> 00:02:22.925 wondering if you could talk about how that happened in the process of 39 00:02:22.925 --> 00:02:24.225 working on the text. 40 00:02:25.025 --> 00:02:26.025 Where did you go? 41 00:02:26.025 --> 00:02:27.225 What did you discover? 42 00:02:27.225 --> 00:02:28.525 What did you want to bring in? 43 00:02:29.625 --> 00:02:30.525 Well, yeah. 44 00:02:30.525 --> 00:02:34.825 So I think that part of the background of that is I do a lot of work 45 00:02:34.825 --> 00:02:36.725 with early church fathers. 46 00:02:36.725 --> 00:02:40.425 I've been translating Cyril of Alexandria for more than 10 years now. 47 00:02:41.325 --> 00:02:46.625 And I I've kind of gotten used to the pattern of the way that he reads 48 00:02:46.625 --> 00:02:52.225 scripture and it's a little bit different than modern what we would 49 00:02:52.225 --> 00:02:53.325 call exegesis. 50 00:02:53.325 --> 00:02:58.225 Because there the goal is to, you know, what's the immediate 51 00:02:58.225 --> 00:03:01.925 what's the meaning of the text in its original context as it was 52 00:03:01.925 --> 00:03:04.025 understood about the original hearers. For Cyril 53 00:03:04.025 --> 00:03:08.425 it's more the text is placed in the context of a larger story of 54 00:03:08.425 --> 00:03:09.325 salvation. 55 00:03:10.525 --> 00:03:15.225 But, at the same time, he's urging what, he calls Accra Baya, which is 56 00:03:15.625 --> 00:03:19.825 precision, like pay, very careful attention to the words. 57 00:03:20.125 --> 00:03:23.525 And so that's going to mean that he's going to make connections verbal 58 00:03:23.525 --> 00:03:26.425 connections between different texts. 59 00:03:26.425 --> 00:03:29.225 Not just within the, you know, context of Luke 60 00:03:29.225 --> 00:03:35.825 let's say. And that that led me to realize. On the basis of a specific 61 00:03:35.825 --> 00:03:37.025 word? Right. 62 00:03:37.225 --> 00:03:40.125 And I do suspect sometimes that the New Testament authors. 63 00:03:40.225 --> 00:03:41.925 Actually intend you to do that. 64 00:03:41.925 --> 00:03:46.325 So, for instance, in this case. The Magnificat has a lot of the 65 00:03:46.325 --> 00:03:47.225 same verbs in it 66 00:03:47.225 --> 00:03:51.425 in Greek that the Philippines to the Christ hymn of Philippians 2 does. 67 00:03:52.925 --> 00:03:57.325 You know, is that just coincidence or are you meant to think there's 68 00:03:57.325 --> 00:04:01.225 some connection between the two and that and that so that sort of 69 00:04:01.425 --> 00:04:07.125 helped inform the way that I kind of construed Mary's words because 70 00:04:07.125 --> 00:04:08.825 it's not the only way you could do it. 71 00:04:08.825 --> 00:04:09.525 Right. 72 00:04:09.625 --> 00:04:09.925 Right. 73 00:04:09.925 --> 00:04:15.525 And so you're so that when did you get to the Philippians 2 piece? 74 00:04:16.925 --> 00:04:19.325 In your study of the text and your preparation. 75 00:04:19.325 --> 00:04:21.025 When did you kind of realize 76 00:04:21.025 --> 00:04:22.425 this is where you were going? 77 00:04:23.125 --> 00:04:27.725 Well, I was really struggling with what does humble estate mean? 78 00:04:28.825 --> 00:04:32.125 Because if you look in in Luke. 79 00:04:33.525 --> 00:04:36.425 In The Magnificat, she's talking about rich people, and poor people in 80 00:04:36.425 --> 00:04:38.925 casting, the mighty from their thrones and sending the rich people 81 00:04:38.925 --> 00:04:39.225 away. 82 00:04:39.225 --> 00:04:45.725 And so it really sounds like it's almost limited to like social and 83 00:04:45.725 --> 00:04:48.325 economic realities in this world. 84 00:04:49.525 --> 00:04:55.625 But if you connect it to Philippians 2 or as you have the same word as 85 00:04:55.625 --> 00:04:59.725 saying, root anyway, it's a it's a verb in Philippi suits, a noun in 86 00:04:59.725 --> 00:05:00.325 Luke. 87 00:05:02.025 --> 00:05:04.325 It kind of broadens it up to a larger 88 00:05:05.325 --> 00:05:10.325 a more expansive understanding of what lowliness entails all the way 89 00:05:10.325 --> 00:05:14.525 down to humiliation, even to the point of death on the cross as where 90 00:05:14.525 --> 00:05:16.125 it goes in Philippians 2. 91 00:05:16.425 --> 00:05:21.825 And so that kind of allowed me to play with the fuller semantic 92 00:05:21.825 --> 00:05:25.125 domain of the Greek word to paypnos, which is larger than just 93 00:05:25.125 --> 00:05:25.525 lowly. 94 00:05:25.525 --> 00:05:27.125 I mean, it includes all that stuff. 95 00:05:27.125 --> 00:05:31.625 Right. You know, being poor being outcast, being humiliated and so 96 00:05:31.625 --> 00:05:34.925 I'm kind of flipping back and forth between lowly and humiliated. 97 00:05:35.425 --> 00:05:40.425 On the basis of the fact that you have the Greek word as a larger 98 00:05:40.425 --> 00:05:42.225 semantic, domain than the English word lowly. 99 00:05:42.225 --> 00:05:47.325 But also because it's connecting to Philippians 2, and Christ's own 100 00:05:47.525 --> 00:05:48.725 state of humiliation. 101 00:05:48.725 --> 00:05:52.625 Even I brought in even dogmatic terminology in this regard. Right. 102 00:05:52.625 --> 00:05:53.125 Yeah. 103 00:05:53.925 --> 00:05:54.425 Okay. 104 00:05:54.425 --> 00:06:01.125 So, so, you're going to make that that connection for the hearers, but 105 00:06:01.125 --> 00:06:04.725 you start the sermon out with the hiding 106 00:06:05.325 --> 00:06:07.225 idea. Why did you start there? 107 00:06:08.625 --> 00:06:12.725 Well, because the initial idea that triggered the sermon was the Lord 108 00:06:12.725 --> 00:06:14.025 has looked upon. 109 00:06:14.125 --> 00:06:18.125 Okay. And I show. That was the other verb you're thinking about. 110 00:06:18.125 --> 00:06:22.725 Yeah. As your work. And and it was the Tolkien connection that popped 111 00:06:22.725 --> 00:06:27.325 into my head and that I was kind of exploring and looking like, can 112 00:06:27.325 --> 00:06:28.725 you justify this in the Greek? 113 00:06:28.725 --> 00:06:29.025 Oh, yeah. 114 00:06:29.025 --> 00:06:31.525 It is a kind of unusual word for look upon, you know, I mean, it's 115 00:06:31.525 --> 00:06:36.825 kind of a thing but but the idea of you really want God looking at 116 00:06:36.825 --> 00:06:37.325 you. 117 00:06:37.925 --> 00:06:39.125 Mmm. 118 00:06:39.625 --> 00:06:40.725 Yeah, I thought that was, 119 00:06:40.725 --> 00:06:44.825 I thought you did a lovely job with developing that I mean, sometimes 120 00:06:44.825 --> 00:06:50.925 we can just kind of state this idea as if it's obvious to everybody. 121 00:06:51.025 --> 00:06:57.625 And although we might cognitively know that Adam and Eve hid, we might 122 00:06:57.625 --> 00:07:01.425 not really experience it and care about it. 123 00:07:01.425 --> 00:07:05.825 But by bringing in the Tolkien connection and then Hal, I mean, I think 124 00:07:05.825 --> 00:07:07.725 you did a really good job of tapping 125 00:07:07.825 --> 00:07:14.425 into kind of our cultural symbols as a way of evoking, the kinds of 126 00:07:14.425 --> 00:07:20.325 emotions that come with this hiding and this gaze, right? 127 00:07:20.325 --> 00:07:22.825 The gaze that pins us to the walls. 128 00:07:22.825 --> 00:07:28.925 So that was, that was interesting, but now, the one of the things I 129 00:07:29.525 --> 00:07:33.225 appreciate, I'd like to have, you talk to me a little bit about the 130 00:07:33.225 --> 00:07:37.725 gospel in the sermon. You know, Fleming Rutledge 131 00:07:37.825 --> 00:07:40.325 and her big book on crucifixion. 132 00:07:41.125 --> 00:07:46.825 She walks through various metaphors, for gospel proclamation, and she 133 00:07:46.825 --> 00:07:51.525 makes the argument about kind of the 134 00:07:52.725 --> 00:07:57.025 that each of the metaphors is beautiful and each of the metaphors 135 00:07:57.025 --> 00:08:01.225 raises, a constellation of ideas for us. 136 00:08:01.725 --> 00:08:06.725 But because each of them raises one constellation, you always lose 137 00:08:06.725 --> 00:08:11.425 things when you push one, you lose things that are said better by 138 00:08:11.425 --> 00:08:15.525 another and I think I think you saw that going on here in the sermon 139 00:08:15.525 --> 00:08:16.125 right? 140 00:08:16.125 --> 00:08:17.125 That's absolutely right. 141 00:08:17.225 --> 00:08:22.325 And and I think you handled it really well in that you didn't 142 00:08:22.425 --> 00:08:31.325 just you didn't just push the metaphor that you wanted to work with to 143 00:08:31.325 --> 00:08:33.525 the total exclusion of any other. 144 00:08:33.525 --> 00:08:37.525 But you actually just flat-out acknowledged 145 00:08:37.525 --> 00:08:39.325 Yyou know, this is one way 146 00:08:39.325 --> 00:08:44.925 we often hear the gospel proclaimed. And I loved the line that you had 147 00:08:44.925 --> 00:08:48.125 about, you know, you know because we've all heard that you know that 148 00:08:48.125 --> 00:08:51.625 you hide behind Jesus God sees Jesus and then your point was but 149 00:08:51.625 --> 00:08:52.325 you're still 150 00:08:52.425 --> 00:08:53.525 still hiding. 151 00:08:53.525 --> 00:08:58.825 And that that I think that was just brilliant. 152 00:08:58.825 --> 00:09:03.225 And why is it so important to see that that if that's the only 153 00:09:03.225 --> 00:09:04.425 metaphor you're using, 154 00:09:04.425 --> 00:09:08.025 why do you want us to recognize the? 155 00:09:08.025 --> 00:09:12.225 Well, if you don't, then what you end up with this is this like 156 00:09:12.225 --> 00:09:18.725 attenuated understanding of what salvation entails. That 157 00:09:18.725 --> 00:09:22.425 it's so like narrow and 158 00:09:22.425 --> 00:09:24.825 doesn't really have a punch to it. 159 00:09:25.325 --> 00:09:29.025 And so sometimes I mean and I really, you know, struggle with this 160 00:09:29.025 --> 00:09:33.025 teaching systematics because one of the things you do in systematics 161 00:09:33.025 --> 00:09:36.025 as you systematize things and then you can kind of come up with, 162 00:09:36.025 --> 00:09:37.625 here's the right answer. 163 00:09:37.625 --> 00:09:38.125 Right? 164 00:09:38.125 --> 00:09:39.625 And the temptation is okay 165 00:09:39.625 --> 00:09:41.425 now that we've got the right answer. 166 00:09:41.725 --> 00:09:44.825 We don't really need to look at the you know, the biblical way of 167 00:09:44.825 --> 00:09:47.325 saying it anymore because we got the right answer and we'll know the 168 00:09:47.325 --> 00:09:51.525 biblical way of saying it is going to be much more varied and rich 169 00:09:51.525 --> 00:09:52.225 than just the right 170 00:09:52.425 --> 00:09:59.625 answer. So so let me just put it this way and I'm may be doing the 171 00:09:59.625 --> 00:09:59.925 same thing 172 00:09:59.925 --> 00:10:02.725 I did in the sermon with a slightly different set of images. 173 00:10:03.325 --> 00:10:03.825 Lutheran's 174 00:10:03.825 --> 00:10:08.325 often talk about justification as if it's a bookkeeping matter that 175 00:10:08.325 --> 00:10:11.425 you have your sins on one side and maybe a few good works on 176 00:10:11.425 --> 00:10:13.925 the other depending on how you feel about yourself. 177 00:10:14.525 --> 00:10:17.625 And what is Jesus do he comes in and he wipes off the ledger. 178 00:10:18.125 --> 00:10:19.425 Oh, isn't that wonderful. 179 00:10:19.825 --> 00:10:20.225 Yeah. 180 00:10:21.325 --> 00:10:24.925 He, you know, he made a correcting entry in our checkbook. 181 00:10:26.325 --> 00:10:27.925 I mean, we're supposed to rejoice. 182 00:10:27.925 --> 00:10:31.525 I mean, it just, it just doesn't kind of get you there, you know, but 183 00:10:31.525 --> 00:10:34.725 if you actually look at the way the Bible, like St. 184 00:10:34.725 --> 00:10:36.825 Paul, for example, describes justification. 185 00:10:36.825 --> 00:10:39.225 Well, he'll use a term like reconciliation. 186 00:10:40.225 --> 00:10:40.625 Okay. 187 00:10:40.625 --> 00:10:43.125 Well now it's not this impersonal 188 00:10:43.125 --> 00:10:44.625 I'm going to adjust your checkbook. 189 00:10:44.725 --> 00:10:46.625 There's a relationship that's broken. 190 00:10:46.825 --> 00:10:50.325 That is being restored by justification. 191 00:10:50.325 --> 00:10:50.725 Right. 192 00:10:51.125 --> 00:10:55.425 And so that's the kind of concern I've got going into in why I wanted 193 00:10:55.425 --> 00:10:59.825 to sort of contrast the the Christ in our place versus with us because 194 00:10:59.825 --> 00:11:00.725 they're both right. 195 00:11:00.725 --> 00:11:03.225 But here's what the with us. Right 196 00:11:03.225 --> 00:11:04.225 brings to the table. 197 00:11:04.425 --> 00:11:04.825 Right. 198 00:11:05.325 --> 00:11:08.425 And I mean, I thought it was you know, not not only 199 00:11:08.425 --> 00:11:09.625 are you still hiding 200 00:11:10.325 --> 00:11:13.725 but you still have an angry God. Right. 201 00:11:13.725 --> 00:11:17.725 I mean, yeah, you've got Jesus in between, but you still got an angry 202 00:11:17.725 --> 00:11:19.225 father that, you know. I've always heard 203 00:11:19.225 --> 00:11:21.425 it's like are you supposed to like, hide behind him for eternity? 204 00:11:23.725 --> 00:11:28.225 We're shifting the metaphor. 205 00:11:29.425 --> 00:11:31.225 All of the sudden brings out 206 00:11:31.225 --> 00:11:33.325 what, what does it bring bring to us? 207 00:11:33.325 --> 00:11:36.425 That the other one does not have. That 208 00:11:36.425 --> 00:11:38.325 you're actually accepted. 209 00:11:38.425 --> 00:11:39.325 Yeah, right. 210 00:11:39.325 --> 00:11:39.925 It's not 211 00:11:40.125 --> 00:11:45.025 that, you know, he really doesn't accept you but he's going to let you 212 00:11:45.025 --> 00:11:45.425 in any way. 213 00:11:45.425 --> 00:11:46.225 No, he really. 214 00:11:46.225 --> 00:11:49.925 I mean, the justification is a promise that look, you're good. 215 00:11:50.425 --> 00:11:50.625 Right. 216 00:11:50.725 --> 00:11:53.525 You know, I'm or we're good. 217 00:11:53.525 --> 00:11:55.325 I mean the relationships restored. 218 00:11:55.325 --> 00:11:55.925 Right. 219 00:11:55.925 --> 00:11:59.325 And it's and it's yeah, so that's what it is. 220 00:11:59.825 --> 00:12:06.325 And why do you think that would be important for people in our culture 221 00:12:06.925 --> 00:12:07.425 to hear? 222 00:12:07.625 --> 00:12:09.825 Well, because I think there's all kind of people 223 00:12:10.325 --> 00:12:10.925 who 224 00:12:12.225 --> 00:12:15.925 can't we don't want certainly don't want others to see who they really 225 00:12:15.925 --> 00:12:16.125 are. 226 00:12:16.125 --> 00:12:19.325 But maybe I mean I've known known people who can't admit to 227 00:12:19.325 --> 00:12:20.625 themselves. Right. 228 00:12:20.625 --> 00:12:21.825 You know who they really are. 229 00:12:22.425 --> 00:12:27.925 And that's a problem because because there then you're like trying to 230 00:12:27.925 --> 00:12:31.725 be a Christian and not admit to God who you really are and, you know, 231 00:12:31.725 --> 00:12:32.725 things like that. 232 00:12:34.025 --> 00:12:40.425 And I mean, I've even heard radio interviews with people like, writing 233 00:12:40.425 --> 00:12:41.625 books on this kind of a thing. 234 00:12:41.625 --> 00:12:41.825 And 235 00:12:42.225 --> 00:12:45.825 how people are just, I can't think of the name of the book offhand. 236 00:12:45.825 --> 00:12:49.925 But I mean that this is a real struggle for people who have this 237 00:12:49.925 --> 00:12:52.825 negative view of themselves that they can't get over and they're not 238 00:12:52.825 --> 00:12:53.325 Christians. 239 00:12:53.325 --> 00:12:56.225 I mean, they're just talking about sociologically in our culture. 240 00:12:56.525 --> 00:12:59.025 A lot of people carry, this kind of thing around. 241 00:12:59.025 --> 00:13:07.425 So, yeah, and it's it's less a matter of thinking of certain things 242 00:13:07.425 --> 00:13:10.725 I've done wrong that need to be made, right. 243 00:13:11.025 --> 00:13:11.925 And it's more a matter 244 00:13:12.025 --> 00:13:18.425 of the kind of person I am, who has done wrong things. Right. 245 00:13:18.425 --> 00:13:22.925 And so, it's pushing its pushing deeper into that. 246 00:13:23.625 --> 00:13:33.325 And I think our our culture is kind of shifting from a guilt culture 247 00:13:33.325 --> 00:13:35.025 to a shame culture. Well right. 248 00:13:35.025 --> 00:13:38.525 And that's another kind of contrast 249 00:13:38.525 --> 00:13:41.825 I had in mind in the sermon was guilt versus shame. 250 00:13:43.125 --> 00:13:49.425 And I was working with the shame thing and I've wondered that too, 251 00:13:49.425 --> 00:13:51.725 because, because you always hear, well, we're a guilt culture. 252 00:13:51.725 --> 00:13:53.825 The New Testament is a shame culture. 253 00:13:54.825 --> 00:13:57.225 It's not obvious to me that we're guilt culture anymore. 254 00:13:57.225 --> 00:13:58.825 Not anymore, right. 255 00:13:58.825 --> 00:14:06.525 Yeah, because, you know, the guilt culture would have forgiveness for 256 00:14:06.525 --> 00:14:08.425 actions that have been done wrong. 257 00:14:08.925 --> 00:14:11.825 But now with the shame culture, somebody posts, 258 00:14:11.925 --> 00:14:13.725 something on social media. 259 00:14:14.225 --> 00:14:15.425 It isn't an act 260 00:14:15.425 --> 00:14:16.625 that is forgiven. 261 00:14:17.025 --> 00:14:19.425 They're excluded from Community. Right. 262 00:14:19.425 --> 00:14:21.425 They lose their job. 263 00:14:21.425 --> 00:14:23.325 They're marginalized. 264 00:14:23.325 --> 00:14:28.925 They've lost their voice because there can be no reparation for what 265 00:14:28.925 --> 00:14:29.425 you've done. 266 00:14:29.525 --> 00:14:29.825 Right, 267 00:14:29.825 --> 00:14:35.125 and so it's so I think the, I think that that shift that cultural 268 00:14:35.125 --> 00:14:40.525 shift is putting pressures on the preacher as we think about 269 00:14:40.525 --> 00:14:41.825 how do we talk about 270 00:14:42.625 --> 00:14:47.725 sin, forgiveness, you know, reconciliation. 271 00:14:47.725 --> 00:14:52.925 How do we talk about the gracious work that God has done in language 272 00:14:52.925 --> 00:14:56.825 that, that attends to the experiences that people are feeling? 273 00:14:56.825 --> 00:15:01.425 And and I think you did, you did a good job with that by the use of 274 00:15:01.425 --> 00:15:09.725 the hiding imagery and the resolution to the hiding imagery was such 275 00:15:09.725 --> 00:15:12.225 that it isn't I just stand behind 276 00:15:12.425 --> 00:15:14.425 Jesus and I can hide forever. 277 00:15:15.425 --> 00:15:20.225 It was that Jesus comes to be with me and he raises me from a 278 00:15:20.225 --> 00:15:22.825 situation of shame to a situation of honor. Right 279 00:15:22.825 --> 00:15:24.125 is that kind of what you? Right. 280 00:15:24.125 --> 00:15:28.125 And I mean if I had had more time, I would have worked on the honor 281 00:15:28.125 --> 00:15:28.525 part. 282 00:15:28.525 --> 00:15:30.125 I mean, because that's the. What would you do? 283 00:15:30.125 --> 00:15:31.025 What would you do? 284 00:15:32.125 --> 00:15:36.725 Well, I well, since I didn't I knew I wasn't going to time, I didn't 285 00:15:36.725 --> 00:15:37.125 work it out. 286 00:15:37.125 --> 00:15:42.225 But but the one thing that sort of popped into my head, is there we 287 00:15:42.325 --> 00:15:48.125 have a hymn, Jesus has come and brings pleasure Eternal, that has a 288 00:15:48.125 --> 00:15:52.425 line in it that says he lifts us from shame to the place of his honor. 289 00:15:52.725 --> 00:15:56.825 It just struck me that, okay, that's what I'm trying to get at here. 290 00:15:57.325 --> 00:15:57.725 Yeah. 291 00:15:59.125 --> 00:16:05.625 Okay, and you you kind of took us on this journey through all of the 292 00:16:05.625 --> 00:16:11.325 gospels and but particularly with Luke with the way in which the 293 00:16:11.325 --> 00:16:15.925 crucifixion is a shame, a shame based act. 294 00:16:15.925 --> 00:16:16.125 Right? 295 00:16:16.125 --> 00:16:18.425 I mean they told. Yeah. And you kind of. 296 00:16:18.425 --> 00:16:20.525 Why is that so important to recognize? 297 00:16:22.925 --> 00:16:27.925 Because it helps if you're going to work with the shame imagery it 298 00:16:27.925 --> 00:16:28.425 helped. 299 00:16:28.425 --> 00:16:30.025 I mean, this is the foundation of it. 300 00:16:30.025 --> 00:16:33.725 And I mean, this is the thing that I mean, I think this is something 301 00:16:33.725 --> 00:16:37.925 that we miss in our imagination about what it was like to be a 302 00:16:37.925 --> 00:16:42.425 Christian in the first century. Is that this is the people thought you 303 00:16:42.425 --> 00:16:42.825 were 304 00:16:44.025 --> 00:16:51.325 ridiculous. And, and you can just see that in the gospels, with all of 305 00:16:51.325 --> 00:16:54.225 this, the way they were shaming Jesus and making fun of him. 306 00:16:54.225 --> 00:16:57.025 Basically, for the claims that he was making. 307 00:16:57.625 --> 00:17:00.225 And, and that continues on, in the early church. 308 00:17:00.225 --> 00:17:04.425 There's all kind of, you know, the Romans just thought Christians were 309 00:17:05.325 --> 00:17:11.825 some weird sect and it's just helpful to recognize that I. When I was 310 00:17:11.825 --> 00:17:12.925 at Notre Dame, 311 00:17:14.025 --> 00:17:18.025 the Mel Gibson's movie, The Passion of the Christ came out. And in Mel 312 00:17:18.025 --> 00:17:19.025 Gibson's movie 313 00:17:20.125 --> 00:17:25.225 the physical violence is what he really stresses. 314 00:17:25.225 --> 00:17:28.425 Yeah. And the Notre Dame theology Department 315 00:17:28.425 --> 00:17:31.525 had this little meeting with students after the movie came out and the 316 00:17:31.525 --> 00:17:37.325 professor's were talking about the movie to the students, you know, 317 00:17:37.325 --> 00:17:43.125 and one of the professor's Jerry Naira really works with 318 00:17:43.325 --> 00:17:47.825 this honor shame business and his, his point was the point. 319 00:17:47.825 --> 00:17:50.325 I was making in the sermon too 320 00:17:50.325 --> 00:17:51.325 is that in the gospels 321 00:17:51.325 --> 00:17:53.225 it's actually the shame that's highlighted. 322 00:17:53.725 --> 00:17:59.125 And what was interesting to me was that they kind of took a poll and 323 00:17:59.125 --> 00:18:04.825 everyone who was like the students age were they were okay with the 324 00:18:04.825 --> 00:18:05.225 violence. 325 00:18:05.225 --> 00:18:07.525 Everyone my age or older do did not. 326 00:18:07.525 --> 00:18:10.925 I mean we did not like the movie because of the violence. Right. 327 00:18:10.925 --> 00:18:13.225 And so there were that was an interesting kind of 328 00:18:13.325 --> 00:18:14.225 intergenerational difference. 329 00:18:14.425 --> 00:18:18.225 But one of the things that came up on and the students raised, this 330 00:18:18.225 --> 00:18:22.425 was well, maybe the violence is a way of translating the shame 331 00:18:22.425 --> 00:18:25.825 business from their culture, to our culture, because it speaks more. 332 00:18:25.825 --> 00:18:29.425 And I don't know, I don't like that but I mean I can see the point, 333 00:18:29.425 --> 00:18:31.325 you know, as it's as a translator. 334 00:18:31.325 --> 00:18:34.425 You do try to, you know, do things like that. 335 00:18:36.325 --> 00:18:39.525 But but I guess my goal in the sermon was not to do that, but it was 336 00:18:39.525 --> 00:18:43.125 to try to take you back into understanding like what this was like 337 00:18:43.325 --> 00:18:44.325 in the first century. 338 00:18:44.625 --> 00:18:44.825 Yeah. 339 00:18:44.825 --> 00:18:51.025 Well, and I think, you know, if you had leaned even more into the, you 340 00:18:51.025 --> 00:18:54.125 know, you had the the piece of graffiti which was ridiculing 341 00:18:54.125 --> 00:19:02.425 Christians. But I think that social experience of being ridiculed for 342 00:19:02.425 --> 00:19:05.825 what, you believe being marginalized, because of what you believe is 343 00:19:05.825 --> 00:19:11.325 something that's becoming a greater reality, for Christians, in our 344 00:19:11.325 --> 00:19:12.425 culture today. 345 00:19:12.925 --> 00:19:13.225 And 346 00:19:13.825 --> 00:19:20.925 And it's helpful then to hear of our savior as one who takes that 347 00:19:20.925 --> 00:19:24.325 which is scorn and marginalized shamed. 348 00:19:24.325 --> 00:19:28.025 And he scorns the shame itself and lifts it up for honor. 349 00:19:28.025 --> 00:19:31.725 I think that is a really that, that's a beautiful way of kind of 350 00:19:31.725 --> 00:19:37.625 speaking into some of the changing social dynamics that we have, we 351 00:19:37.625 --> 00:19:39.925 have going on among us today. 352 00:19:41.025 --> 00:19:42.025 And that was interesting. 353 00:19:42.025 --> 00:19:42.225 Now 354 00:19:42.225 --> 00:19:46.525 what do you think about, you know, the the stuff I've read about the 355 00:19:46.525 --> 00:19:46.825 shame 356 00:19:46.825 --> 00:19:51.525 honor dialectic has been that there's two kinds of shame? 357 00:19:51.825 --> 00:19:58.425 You heard that there's attributed shame, and there's earned shame. 358 00:19:58.925 --> 00:20:04.625 So attributed, shame is somebody who's being shamed or marginalized 359 00:20:04.825 --> 00:20:08.325 for something about them over, which they have no control. 360 00:20:08.625 --> 00:20:10.625 So, you know, if you're 361 00:20:12.325 --> 00:20:17.925 you can't hear you can't see or lame or somebody or person with a 362 00:20:17.925 --> 00:20:18.625 disability. 363 00:20:18.625 --> 00:20:22.425 You have this shame that's attributed to you because of that. And earned 364 00:20:22.425 --> 00:20:23.425 shame is shame 365 00:20:23.725 --> 00:20:29.025 that is directed by the community upon someone for something that 366 00:20:29.025 --> 00:20:33.825 they've done, where you, you know, you committed adultery. 367 00:20:33.825 --> 00:20:37.625 And now you're shamed because of the breaking of that marriage 368 00:20:37.625 --> 00:20:40.825 vow. And so you've got kind of two different ways of thinking 369 00:20:40.925 --> 00:20:44.825 about shame. Did any of that enter into your thought as you were 370 00:20:44.825 --> 00:20:47.125 thinking about this text and shame? 371 00:20:47.125 --> 00:20:51.625 And well, I wasn't thinking about that categorical distinction 372 00:20:51.725 --> 00:20:57.525 explicitly, but it did occur to me that Luke really wants you to know 373 00:20:57.525 --> 00:20:59.325 that Jesus didn't do it. 374 00:20:59.325 --> 00:20:59.725 Right. 375 00:20:59.725 --> 00:21:04.325 I mean, so the Centurion on the cross and Luke says, surely he was a 376 00:21:04.325 --> 00:21:05.225 righteous, man. 377 00:21:05.225 --> 00:21:06.625 We all think of the Mark 1 378 00:21:06.725 --> 00:21:08.725 surely was the Son of God. Right. 379 00:21:08.825 --> 00:21:10.725 Yes. But in Luke, it's he was a righteous man. 380 00:21:10.925 --> 00:21:16.625 Yeah. So there is a sense for Luke that it's really important 381 00:21:16.625 --> 00:21:19.925 that you realize that Jesus did not earn the shame. 382 00:21:19.925 --> 00:21:21.125 Right, right. 383 00:21:21.225 --> 00:21:22.725 That he's bearing shame. 384 00:21:22.725 --> 00:21:24.325 Whereas obviously in our case. 385 00:21:25.025 --> 00:21:27.125 That's not, not the way it goes. 386 00:21:27.925 --> 00:21:28.625 Right, right. 387 00:21:28.625 --> 00:21:33.325 And I mean it just kind of partly I think it matters if you push the 388 00:21:34.525 --> 00:21:40.925 you know, you push the way you talk about Mary and her humble estate, 389 00:21:40.925 --> 00:21:46.625 you know, is it something that she has done or is it something that's 390 00:21:46.625 --> 00:21:48.825 attributed to her? Right 391 00:21:48.825 --> 00:21:53.425 that, that estate as it is something that she has had control over. 392 00:21:53.425 --> 00:21:59.525 I think that then the way you push those lines shape the way, you'll 393 00:21:59.525 --> 00:22:03.425 preach what it means for God, to be with you. Right. 394 00:22:03.425 --> 00:22:04.225 And that was 395 00:22:04.525 --> 00:22:10.225 I mean, that's the part that I was a little worried about, you know, 396 00:22:10.225 --> 00:22:12.525 and I was conscious that I was pushing something here. 397 00:22:12.525 --> 00:22:15.625 Yeah, and but you, you kind of, I thought you navigated it 398 00:22:15.625 --> 00:22:20.825 well. You, you know, you can partly because you were, you know, you 399 00:22:20.925 --> 00:22:26.625 let us know and think about kind of the vicarious atonement. 400 00:22:26.625 --> 00:22:30.425 The work of God was sin, but you also and, you know, you had the 401 00:22:30.425 --> 00:22:34.425 Garden of Eden as your opening piece, but 402 00:22:34.525 --> 00:22:38.825 but you, you also helped us think about the wholeness of the 403 00:22:38.825 --> 00:22:41.825 restoration that God brings to people. 404 00:22:41.825 --> 00:22:43.525 So I thought you, I thought you handled it 405 00:22:43.525 --> 00:22:48.325 well. But yeah, it is kind of a, I think if you push into that shame 406 00:22:48.325 --> 00:22:51.825 and I haven't done enough reading in it, but that that type of 407 00:22:51.825 --> 00:22:56.125 dDistinction as you think about the kind of shame may shape, the kind 408 00:22:56.125 --> 00:23:01.925 of honor or the kind of act that Christ is doing to bestow honor in 409 00:23:01.925 --> 00:23:04.225 different ways in the in the proclamation. 410 00:23:04.825 --> 00:23:06.125 Now you're closing. 411 00:23:06.125 --> 00:23:09.225 I loved the way, you know, you set up front in the very beginning that 412 00:23:09.225 --> 00:23:11.225 you want to both 413 00:23:11.225 --> 00:23:14.025 look at this aspect of the text. 414 00:23:14.025 --> 00:23:17.025 But then you also want to think about the resources that the Church 415 00:23:17.025 --> 00:23:18.325 offers, right? 416 00:23:18.425 --> 00:23:25.325 And you spent some time with a resource that the Church offers that, I 417 00:23:25.325 --> 00:23:29.225 don't think we spend much time with at all, which is the mutual 418 00:23:29.225 --> 00:23:32.425 consolation of the of the Saints, right? 419 00:23:32.425 --> 00:23:34.325 And so why did you why did you go 420 00:23:34.525 --> 00:23:34.925 there? 421 00:23:36.825 --> 00:23:41.525 Well, two reasons, one I mentioned in the sermon was because I found 422 00:23:41.525 --> 00:23:46.725 that to be helpful to me as a Seminary Student, but the second one is 423 00:23:46.725 --> 00:23:50.825 the one you mentioned is because we don't spend very much time and I 424 00:23:50.825 --> 00:23:52.325 thought it. What do you think happens 425 00:23:52.325 --> 00:23:54.125 because we don't spend time on that? 426 00:23:56.725 --> 00:23:58.825 Well, you miss out on 427 00:24:00.025 --> 00:24:03.425 a way in which you can live out your Christian Life in your daily life 428 00:24:03.425 --> 00:24:07.625 and not just on like churchy moments on whether it's Sunday morning or 429 00:24:07.725 --> 00:24:11.025 in the case of confession Absolution, you know, that's still kind of a 430 00:24:11.125 --> 00:24:12.125 churchy thing. Right. 431 00:24:13.325 --> 00:24:17.225 And so there is this sense of it, helps you more in terms of living 432 00:24:17.225 --> 00:24:24.325 out your faith like fully in your life and not just at church. But 433 00:24:24.325 --> 00:24:27.225 then there's also this another concern I had was 434 00:24:28.225 --> 00:24:31.025 cuz honestly the first thing I thought it was confession Absolution. 435 00:24:31.025 --> 00:24:33.025 Yeah. But then I thought, 436 00:24:34.125 --> 00:24:36.025 well that's what everyone thinks 437 00:24:36.025 --> 00:24:36.925 I'm going to say. 438 00:24:36.925 --> 00:24:37.225 Yeah. 439 00:24:37.825 --> 00:24:40.225 All right, you don't like to be predictable. 440 00:24:40.225 --> 00:24:41.225 Well, I don't. 441 00:24:41.925 --> 00:24:46.225 But for this reason, it seems to me that if sermons are 442 00:24:46.725 --> 00:24:48.125 predictable in general. 443 00:24:49.425 --> 00:24:52.125 Then you're asking people to tune them out. 444 00:24:52.125 --> 00:24:52.725 Exactly. 445 00:24:52.825 --> 00:24:53.925 Right, right. 446 00:24:53.925 --> 00:24:56.925 And so I feel somewhat of an obligation to try 447 00:24:58.625 --> 00:25:00.825 to be at least a little bit unpredictable. 448 00:25:01.925 --> 00:25:08.825 I mean there's bounds obviously, but but yeah, I don't want. 449 00:25:09.325 --> 00:25:14.325 I mean if you can predict yeah what I'm going to say then I feel like 450 00:25:14.325 --> 00:25:15.125 well, 451 00:25:15.125 --> 00:25:16.125 why am I even up here? 452 00:25:16.825 --> 00:25:17.925 Yeah. 453 00:25:17.925 --> 00:25:23.725 Well the I is speaking to your first idea about kind of the churchy 454 00:25:23.725 --> 00:25:26.925 moments and and the rest of your life. 455 00:25:26.925 --> 00:25:28.225 I the thing I liked about it 456 00:25:29.025 --> 00:25:33.925 was that it was really leaning into our pushing, into the value of 457 00:25:33.925 --> 00:25:40.225 Christian Community. And the way in which being surrounded by Brothers 458 00:25:40.225 --> 00:25:49.125 and Sisters in Christ is important and godly and helpful for us a 459 00:25:49.125 --> 00:25:54.425 place where we can become transparent and we can receive that 460 00:25:54.425 --> 00:25:55.225 forgiveness. 461 00:25:55.225 --> 00:25:56.925 And it was what I thought. 462 00:25:57.425 --> 00:25:58.325 The reason I think that's 463 00:25:58.425 --> 00:26:02.625 important, as you know, this whole Covid thing and people not going to 464 00:26:02.625 --> 00:26:04.925 church and watching church on line. 465 00:26:04.925 --> 00:26:06.925 And, you know, you can still get the word. 466 00:26:06.925 --> 00:26:08.425 You just can't get the sacrament. 467 00:26:08.425 --> 00:26:12.425 And people are kind of wondering, well, why should I even go to the 468 00:26:12.425 --> 00:26:12.925 church? 469 00:26:13.125 --> 00:26:15.725 Why should I ahh side from receiving the sacrament? 470 00:26:15.725 --> 00:26:18.325 If it's a service of the word, why should I go? 471 00:26:18.325 --> 00:26:24.425 And it's pressing into well what is the point of Christian Community? 472 00:26:24.425 --> 00:26:27.525 What is the point of knowing another person in your 473 00:26:28.325 --> 00:26:36.625 congregation? And you were raising up one of the values of that is that you 474 00:26:36.625 --> 00:26:42.325 know, that connection can become that place that place of someone 475 00:26:42.325 --> 00:26:45.825 being with you and reminding you that Christ is with you. 476 00:26:46.425 --> 00:26:51.725 As you enter more fully into your identity as a child of God. 477 00:26:51.725 --> 00:26:55.125 I thought it was really nice, really nice way to to kind of close the 478 00:26:55.125 --> 00:26:55.625 sermon. 479 00:26:55.625 --> 00:26:56.025 So. 480 00:26:56.825 --> 00:26:57.525 Oh, well, thanks. 481 00:26:57.525 --> 00:27:03.225 I mean, it is, it is, I mean, of course the term Mutual conversation 482 00:27:03.225 --> 00:27:07.425 solution was rather and comes from the Smalcald Articles in which it 483 00:27:07.425 --> 00:27:12.025 is part of a list and it's the list of all the ways that God gives you 484 00:27:12.025 --> 00:27:13.425 the gospel. Right. 485 00:27:13.625 --> 00:27:16.425 Yeah, yeah, and that's, and that's great. 486 00:27:16.425 --> 00:27:21.325 So well, thank you very much David for spending some time with us, and 487 00:27:21.325 --> 00:27:25.425 talking about your sermon. Thank you. And thank you for listening in on a 488 00:27:25.425 --> 00:27:26.325 conversation about 489 00:27:26.525 --> 00:27:28.525 preaching at our Preachers Studio.