1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,736 The other thing we do know about God, though, which is far more interesting, 2 00:00:02,836 --> 00:00:08,375 is that God has shown himself to be three persons in one, the Trinity. 3 00:00:09,175 --> 00:00:10,677 And this is really very important. 4 00:00:11,044 --> 00:00:18,651 So God has shown himself to be Father and Son and Holy Spirit. 5 00:00:20,954 --> 00:00:25,091 And the Trinity, of course, is not found anywhere in the Bible, the Word. 6 00:00:25,992 --> 00:00:30,363 But the doctrine is everywhere because God is triune. 7 00:00:30,930 --> 00:00:32,165 He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 8 00:00:32,599 --> 00:00:39,739 And again, back to the simplicity of God, God is simply Father, Son, and 9 00:00:39,739 --> 00:00:41,007 Holy Spirit together. 10 00:00:41,474 --> 00:00:43,643 That's what makes God God. 11 00:00:44,310 --> 00:00:49,015 It's not like you take the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and throw them 12 00:00:49,015 --> 00:00:50,383 together, now you've got God. 13 00:00:50,383 --> 00:00:56,056 And it's not like you've got this God idea and then the Father participates in it, 14 00:00:56,156 --> 00:00:59,526 and then the Son participates in it, and then the Holy Spirit participates in it. 15 00:00:59,726 --> 00:01:02,929 And in fact, there's this classic illustration of catechisms that leads to 16 00:01:02,929 --> 00:01:04,864 that idea, which is kind of an iffy idea. 17 00:01:05,365 --> 00:01:07,767 You remember the triangle with the circle? 18 00:01:08,701 --> 00:01:09,636 Okay, remember this one? 19 00:01:10,904 --> 00:01:14,474 Okay, you got God in the middle, you got the Father, you got the Son, 20 00:01:14,707 --> 00:01:20,080 you got the Holy Spirit, and you got is, is, is, and is not, is not, is not. 21 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:20,747 Remember that one? 22 00:01:22,315 --> 00:01:23,683 Oh, come on, guys. 23 00:01:26,286 --> 00:01:28,888 It's in here somewhere, but I can't give you the page. 24 00:01:28,988 --> 00:01:30,056 But it's in here somewhere. 25 00:01:30,356 --> 00:01:32,092 And it's the classic illustration. 26 00:01:32,425 --> 00:01:38,264 So, the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit 27 00:01:38,264 --> 00:01:42,068 is not the Father, but the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. 28 00:01:42,435 --> 00:01:42,735 Right? 29 00:01:43,670 --> 00:01:43,937 Great. 30 00:01:44,270 --> 00:01:48,274 The problem though is this illustration implies that there's this fourth thing 31 00:01:48,274 --> 00:01:49,609 called God. 32 00:01:50,877 --> 00:01:52,812 There is no fourth thing called God. 33 00:01:53,313 --> 00:01:55,482 There is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that's God. 34 00:01:56,616 --> 00:01:59,552 There's not a God idea that's different than the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 35 00:01:59,786 --> 00:02:02,856 This is also why some of our Trinitarian hymns get kind of goofy. 36 00:02:03,756 --> 00:02:06,493 So we have a verse for the Father, and a verse for the Son, and 37 00:02:06,493 --> 00:02:08,728 a verse for the Spirit, and we throw in a verse for the Trinity. 38 00:02:09,162 --> 00:02:09,829 What's that? 39 00:02:11,364 --> 00:02:12,932 There is no Trinity. 40 00:02:13,399 --> 00:02:15,268 There is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that's God. 41 00:02:16,069 --> 00:02:16,803 That's the Trinity. 42 00:02:17,470 --> 00:02:19,873 So there's not like a fourth thing when they, you know, 43 00:02:19,906 --> 00:02:21,908 like they all combine their powers, now they're God. 44 00:02:24,844 --> 00:02:25,345 No. 45 00:02:25,645 --> 00:02:27,680 The Father's God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. 46 00:02:28,047 --> 00:02:29,716 Together, that's God. 47 00:02:29,916 --> 00:02:31,084 That's the triune God. 48 00:02:31,851 --> 00:02:36,289 And the important thing is, the reason we emphasize the Trinity so much is because 49 00:02:36,289 --> 00:02:41,261 each of these three persons is doing particular work in our salvation. 50 00:02:41,828 --> 00:02:48,568 The Father sends the Son in the power of the Holy Spirit to accomplish our salvation. 51 00:02:48,835 --> 00:02:49,969 This is how the Bible talks. 52 00:02:50,603 --> 00:02:53,439 If you lose the Trinity, you lose salvation. 53 00:02:54,774 --> 00:02:56,009 That's why the Trinity matters. 54 00:02:56,376 --> 00:02:58,378 That's why Jehovah's Witnesses are out. 55 00:02:58,912 --> 00:03:00,513 And that's why Mormons are out. 56 00:03:00,980 --> 00:03:01,648 They're not Christian. 57 00:03:02,815 --> 00:03:06,386 Because they deny that the Father is God, that the Son is God, 58 00:03:06,586 --> 00:03:07,554 the Holy Spirit is God. 59 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,323 If you do not have the Trinity, you do not have salvation. 60 00:03:10,323 --> 00:03:12,425 You do not have the God of the scripture. 61 00:03:12,625 --> 00:03:13,927 You do not have the Christian God. 62 00:03:15,128 --> 00:03:17,063 It's just that simple. 63 00:03:17,363 --> 00:03:19,599 So the Trinity really matters. 64 00:03:20,667 --> 00:03:24,904 And because God is simple, he is simply God in his Godness. 65 00:03:25,305 --> 00:03:27,607 Three persons, one substance. 66 00:03:28,208 --> 00:03:34,147 At the Nicaea, this is a long time ago, some dates you've got to know. 67 00:03:35,215 --> 00:03:36,416 325 AD. 68 00:03:37,951 --> 00:03:38,484 Oops. 69 00:03:39,185 --> 00:03:44,057 Hugely important council at the city of called Nicaea, 70 00:03:44,224 --> 00:03:48,061 where the church fathers at the time came together and they discussed and 71 00:03:48,061 --> 00:03:51,631 they hashed out these things, trying to figure out how to understand the Son. 72 00:03:52,131 --> 00:03:54,367 Is Jesus really God or not? 73 00:03:54,834 --> 00:04:00,506 And a guy named Arius, who was later to be labeled a heretic, 74 00:04:01,374 --> 00:04:07,080 an arch heretic, was teaching that the Son cannot really be God, 75 00:04:07,547 --> 00:04:08,681 the way the Father is. 76 00:04:09,382 --> 00:04:11,484 He's a lesser God. 77 00:04:11,751 --> 00:04:16,990 And the reason Arius argued this was because he simply could not believe 78 00:04:16,990 --> 00:04:21,995 that God, who is perfect and immutable and holy and 79 00:04:21,995 --> 00:04:24,931 eternal, could deign to become human. 80 00:04:27,033 --> 00:04:27,767 Inconceivable. 81 00:04:28,735 --> 00:04:34,407 How could God mix himself up with humanity, sinfulness? 82 00:04:35,141 --> 00:04:36,042 Can't be. 83 00:04:36,643 --> 00:04:40,680 So the reason how Arius got around it was he said, obviously, 84 00:04:41,714 --> 00:04:45,952 Father stayed clean, only the Son got dirty. 85 00:04:46,519 --> 00:04:48,187 The Son is a different God than the Father. 86 00:04:48,988 --> 00:04:50,089 That's what Arius taught. 87 00:04:50,623 --> 00:04:53,760 So at Nicaea, they dealt with Arius. 88 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,964 And the guy who led the charge against Arius was a young guy, 89 00:04:58,197 --> 00:05:00,667 not even a bishop yet, named Athanasius. 90 00:05:02,335 --> 00:05:08,875 And Athanasius said, no, the Son is one with the Father. 91 00:05:09,275 --> 00:05:14,747 And the fancy word that they came up with was homoousius. 92 00:05:15,214 --> 00:05:16,849 Well, I'll put it into English for you. 93 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:25,224 Homoousius, which is Greek for, homo always means the same, 94 00:05:25,591 --> 00:05:28,094 like homogenized milk or homosexuals, all right? 95 00:05:28,227 --> 00:05:29,028 Homo means the same. 96 00:05:29,495 --> 00:05:34,067 Oousius is the Greek word for being, substance, essence, what makes you, you. 97 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:40,073 So homoousius is the teaching that God the Son and God the Father and 98 00:05:40,073 --> 00:05:45,678 God the Spirit all have one substance, one essence, 99 00:05:46,446 --> 00:05:50,016 one being, one Godness. 100 00:05:52,118 --> 00:05:53,152 That's homoousius. 101 00:05:53,619 --> 00:05:55,588 And we confess it today in the Nicene Creed. 102 00:05:57,123 --> 00:05:58,558 And in Jesus Christ, his only son, our Lord, 103 00:05:58,624 --> 00:06:01,160 who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. 104 00:06:01,494 --> 00:06:05,231 But we confess that he is God of God, light of light, 105 00:06:06,165 --> 00:06:09,135 being of one substance with the Father. 106 00:06:09,702 --> 00:06:14,540 And what that means is, being there is a noun, not a participle. 107 00:06:14,540 --> 00:06:15,375 It's a noun. 108 00:06:15,842 --> 00:06:21,214 He is a being having the same substance, the same essence as the Father. 109 00:06:21,481 --> 00:06:22,382 It's a huge confession. 110 00:06:23,149 --> 00:06:26,185 So we're saying that Jesus is not a Lord, he is the same. 111 00:06:26,452 --> 00:06:29,355 And in fact, a Mormon cannot confess the Nicene Creed. 112 00:06:29,756 --> 00:06:31,958 A Jehovah's Witness cannot confess the Nicene Creed. 113 00:06:34,494 --> 00:06:36,929 So that's why the Nicene Creed is very important. 114 00:06:37,296 --> 00:06:40,767 So 325, another thing is, think about how old that is. 115 00:06:41,434 --> 00:06:44,437 We've been confessing this creed for almost 1600 years in the church. 116 00:06:45,138 --> 00:06:45,772 Pretty phenomenal. 117 00:06:46,272 --> 00:06:48,975 It didn't get its final form until another church council, 118 00:06:49,575 --> 00:06:50,843 381 at Constantinople. 119 00:06:51,344 --> 00:06:52,378 That's when it got its final form. 120 00:06:52,478 --> 00:06:54,147 They did a little more tweaking, dealing with it. 121 00:06:54,213 --> 00:06:57,116 All through the fourth century, they were contending with this Arianism. 122 00:06:57,250 --> 00:06:58,084 And it's still around. 123 00:06:58,584 --> 00:07:01,788 The idea that Jesus is a lesser God, not really quite the same God. 124 00:07:02,121 --> 00:07:04,424 And we call it today Jehovah's Witnesses, they're Arian. 125 00:07:04,957 --> 00:07:06,759 And even Mormons are essentially Arian. 126 00:07:07,326 --> 00:07:10,396 God is a lesser, Jesus is a lesser God, not quite the same as the Father. 127 00:07:10,396 --> 00:07:12,265 It's just Arianism, still around. 128 00:07:12,832 --> 00:07:16,669 So a lot of these old heresies that we talk so much about are relevant because we 129 00:07:16,669 --> 00:07:19,539 still see manifestations today, the very same heresies. 130 00:07:20,673 --> 00:07:25,311 All right, so Arius tries to say, no, the Trinity's not right. 131 00:07:25,311 --> 00:07:26,579 And he's just one example. 132 00:07:26,879 --> 00:07:30,750 And there have been all kinds of Trinitarian errors and heresies. 133 00:07:32,218 --> 00:07:33,886 So Arianism is one of them. 134 00:07:34,454 --> 00:07:38,891 And always keep straight, around here when we talk about Arianism, 135 00:07:38,891 --> 00:07:41,060 we're not meaning white supremacists, okay? 136 00:07:42,094 --> 00:07:42,562 All right? 137 00:07:43,229 --> 00:07:45,064 That's a different kind of problem. 138 00:07:45,498 --> 00:07:45,698 All right? 139 00:07:45,965 --> 00:07:48,434 We're talking about Arianism as growing out of Arius, 140 00:07:48,534 --> 00:07:51,370 the heretic from the fourth century who said Jesus is less than God. 141 00:07:51,838 --> 00:07:55,241 Arianism is a form of subordinationism. 142 00:08:01,514 --> 00:08:04,517 Subordinationism is the idea that Jesus is less than the Father. 143 00:08:07,186 --> 00:08:10,857 Now, there are times in the Bible when it seems that way. 144 00:08:11,757 --> 00:08:13,693 Jesus says, I don't know the Father's will. 145 00:08:14,861 --> 00:08:16,596 And the Son doesn't know, only the Father does. 146 00:08:17,096 --> 00:08:21,734 So, there are some elements of subordinationism which do show up in the 147 00:08:21,734 --> 00:08:28,174 Bible because when the Trinity is carrying out the work of salvation and 148 00:08:28,174 --> 00:08:32,478 doing this work, we actually see a kind of structure. 149 00:08:32,478 --> 00:08:36,716 The Father sending the Son in the power of the Holy Spirit and 150 00:08:36,716 --> 00:08:40,019 the Son showing this kind of subordination to the Father. 151 00:08:40,753 --> 00:08:43,589 And even 1 Corinthians talks about the Son being under the Father. 152 00:08:44,690 --> 00:08:47,760 And so according to salvation history, we see this. 153 00:08:48,261 --> 00:08:50,963 We have a fancy word, and I'm running kind of on time but 154 00:08:50,963 --> 00:08:54,267 I gotta give this to you, called the economy of God. 155 00:08:56,836 --> 00:09:00,540 When we talk about the economy of God, we're translating a Greek word, 156 00:09:00,540 --> 00:09:02,642 oikonomia, which means household rule. 157 00:09:03,442 --> 00:09:07,580 The economy of God refers to God's plan of salvation. 158 00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:11,284 What God is working out and carrying out, that's the economy of God. 159 00:09:11,517 --> 00:09:14,754 It starts with creation, it's fulfilled at the second coming of Christ, and 160 00:09:14,754 --> 00:09:18,124 in the eschatological kingdom, the last things all being fulfilled. 161 00:09:18,324 --> 00:09:19,692 That's God's economy. 162 00:09:19,959 --> 00:09:25,464 When God is carrying out his economy, we see the Father sending the Son in 163 00:09:25,464 --> 00:09:28,668 the power of the Holy Spirit, we see a sort of subordinationism. 164 00:09:29,702 --> 00:09:35,775 Arius's error was to assume that what we see in the economy also translates to how 165 00:09:35,775 --> 00:09:40,880 God is in his very nature, or the imminence of God. 166 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,583 God as God is in God's self. 167 00:09:45,151 --> 00:09:47,587 That's a different way of talking. 168 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,091 And what they did at Nicaea was they sorted out and they said, God as God is, 169 00:09:52,325 --> 00:09:55,094 in his imminence, is homoousius. 170 00:09:55,795 --> 00:09:58,230 One substance, three persons. 171 00:09:58,664 --> 00:10:02,201 And the reason they knew this was because of other clues in the Bible from Jesus. 172 00:10:02,802 --> 00:10:06,772 In John especially, I and the Father are one. 173 00:10:07,974 --> 00:10:08,174 Okay? 174 00:10:08,841 --> 00:10:09,976 Pretty heavy duty stuff. 175 00:10:10,376 --> 00:10:13,446 And before Abraham was, I am. 176 00:10:14,113 --> 00:10:16,782 Hell, that sounds sort of like what Moses heard. 177 00:10:17,383 --> 00:10:17,883 Oh yeah. 178 00:10:18,551 --> 00:10:20,786 You see there's reasons for this, all these connections. 179 00:10:21,220 --> 00:10:23,589 So Jesus really is one with the Father. 180 00:10:24,190 --> 00:10:26,392 Just say, wait a minute, how can it be two ways? 181 00:10:26,826 --> 00:10:29,395 Well see, it has two ways because of how we see God working. 182 00:10:29,862 --> 00:10:35,901 As God is in God's self, in himself, he is one substance, three persons. 183 00:10:36,235 --> 00:10:40,106 Those three persons carry out the economy of salvation, and 184 00:10:40,106 --> 00:10:42,375 we see a sort of ranking or hierarchy. 185 00:10:42,775 --> 00:10:48,080 And so the economic trinity, well you hear that language a lot, 186 00:10:48,414 --> 00:10:52,718 you're still hearing this, the economic trinity is God carrying out 187 00:10:52,718 --> 00:10:55,755 the salvific work according to the plan, the economy. 188 00:10:56,622 --> 00:10:57,657 There we see an order. 189 00:10:58,024 --> 00:10:59,325 There we see a kind of a ranking. 190 00:10:59,759 --> 00:11:04,697 In the imminent trinity, God as God is in himself, there is no ranking. 191 00:11:04,964 --> 00:11:07,933 It's the homoousius, one substance, three persons. 192 00:11:08,434 --> 00:11:11,337 At Nicaea, the church fathers figured this thing out. 193 00:11:11,837 --> 00:11:13,205 And they started teaching it very clearly. 194 00:11:14,073 --> 00:11:15,441 Christians had always believed it. 195 00:11:15,675 --> 00:11:16,475 Paul believed it. 196 00:11:16,509 --> 00:11:18,210 It just wasn't articulated clearly yet. 197 00:11:18,377 --> 00:11:20,079 And at Nicaea, they articulated it clearly. 198 00:11:20,079 --> 00:11:23,616 It's not like they made up the trinity or they made it up. 199 00:11:23,749 --> 00:11:24,383 It was there. 200 00:11:24,517 --> 00:11:28,754 They just put words to it and described it so that we could understand it and 201 00:11:28,754 --> 00:11:29,221 teach it. 202 00:11:29,555 --> 00:11:34,193 So the economic trinity and the imminent trinity are the same trinity. 203 00:11:34,293 --> 00:11:35,227 There's only one trinity. 204 00:11:35,361 --> 00:11:38,464 It's just that one we see God at work for our salvation, and 205 00:11:38,464 --> 00:11:40,966 the other one we're thinking about God as God is in himself. 206 00:11:42,201 --> 00:11:44,503 One substance, homoousius. 207 00:11:44,970 --> 00:11:50,076 All right, so Arius goofs because he assumes that the subordination that we 208 00:11:50,076 --> 00:11:53,479 see in the economy translates to God in his real essence. 209 00:11:53,979 --> 00:11:55,014 Wrong, it doesn't. 210 00:11:55,981 --> 00:11:56,949 That's subordinationism. 211 00:11:57,316 --> 00:12:00,586 And they attempt to try to put God or Jesus underneath the Father. 212 00:12:00,886 --> 00:12:03,189 Another example of this is adoptionism. 213 00:12:03,756 --> 00:12:05,858 Real popular heresy, still around today. 214 00:12:06,225 --> 00:12:09,995 Jesus was just Joe Guy, and then at the baptism, God said, 215 00:12:10,229 --> 00:12:12,098 he's the one, and zapped him with the spirit. 216 00:12:13,032 --> 00:12:16,368 So he got, the force fell on him, and now he becomes God. 217 00:12:16,535 --> 00:12:17,503 That's adoptionism. 218 00:12:17,837 --> 00:12:18,404 It's wrong. 219 00:12:19,138 --> 00:12:21,674 Jesus was God from the point of conception. 220 00:12:23,242 --> 00:12:25,478 Okay, we'll talk about that more as we go along here. 221 00:12:25,711 --> 00:12:26,312 That's an error. 222 00:12:26,645 --> 00:12:29,381 Another error is known as modalism. 223 00:12:31,584 --> 00:12:35,020 Modalism comes from the word mode or form. 224 00:12:35,354 --> 00:12:37,790 And this is the idea that there's only one God, but 225 00:12:37,790 --> 00:12:39,558 he manifests himself in different ways. 226 00:12:39,859 --> 00:12:43,562 So for a while in the Old Testament, God's wearing his father hat, and 227 00:12:43,562 --> 00:12:44,797 he looks like Yahweh. 228 00:12:44,797 --> 00:12:50,002 And then at Bethlehem, now he puts on his Jesus hat, now he looks like the son. 229 00:12:50,402 --> 00:12:53,105 And now in the church today, he's put away both of those hats, 230 00:12:53,239 --> 00:12:54,673 now he's wearing the Holy Spirit hat. 231 00:12:55,207 --> 00:12:57,409 Just one God, he just shows himself in new ways. 232 00:12:57,743 --> 00:12:58,744 That's wrong too. 233 00:12:59,512 --> 00:13:03,783 Cuz this is teaching that Jesus is not, the Father is also suffering, 234 00:13:03,849 --> 00:13:06,418 there's only one God, and you deny the persons, and 235 00:13:06,418 --> 00:13:09,255 you deny what Jesus talks about, the Father sending the Son. 236 00:13:09,488 --> 00:13:10,656 All that stuff becomes nonsense. 237 00:13:11,223 --> 00:13:13,159 So modalism is ruled out as well. 238 00:13:13,592 --> 00:13:14,126 That's around. 239 00:13:14,126 --> 00:13:17,696 Still, you get examples of that. 240 00:13:19,698 --> 00:13:22,601 All right, so those are some of the classic ones here. 241 00:13:22,835 --> 00:13:24,170 Good, yeah, yeah, yeah. 242 00:13:24,570 --> 00:13:27,840 All right, one other quickie, and we have to talk about here, 243 00:13:28,073 --> 00:13:30,876 just so you are familiar with the term, is the filioque. 244 00:13:31,877 --> 00:13:32,178 Okay? 245 00:13:32,645 --> 00:13:35,681 I know this is coming like fast and furious, but so be it. 246 00:13:36,682 --> 00:13:37,583 Okay, filioque. 247 00:13:38,617 --> 00:13:42,621 In Latin, when you confess the Nicene Creed, and 248 00:13:42,621 --> 00:13:46,559 you're cranking along in the text, you come to this part, it says, and 249 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,895 I believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father filioque. 250 00:13:50,462 --> 00:13:51,297 That's the Latin. 251 00:13:52,398 --> 00:13:54,900 Filioque translated simply means and the Son. 252 00:13:57,536 --> 00:14:01,073 Filius is the word for son, you put a Q-U-E on the end and it means and the Son. 253 00:14:01,173 --> 00:14:04,043 That's one of the Latin ways of putting a conjunction in there. 254 00:14:04,410 --> 00:14:06,078 So filioque and the Son. 255 00:14:06,779 --> 00:14:11,417 The filioque confesses that the Holy Spirit proceeds from Father and 256 00:14:11,417 --> 00:14:15,855 Son, and it is in the Nicene Creed, but 257 00:14:15,855 --> 00:14:20,292 only showed up in the Nicene Creed in the area of Toledo, 258 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,964 Spain, sometime in the sixth century. 259 00:14:25,331 --> 00:14:25,965 It came in later. 260 00:14:26,899 --> 00:14:30,736 This has become a hot spot because Greek Orthodox or 261 00:14:30,736 --> 00:14:35,441 Aryan or Syrian Orthodox, any of the Orthodox churches, the Orthodox kind of 262 00:14:35,441 --> 00:14:39,111 faith, they don't confess this, they don't have this in the Creed. 263 00:14:39,111 --> 00:14:42,181 And this has become a sore spot between east and west. 264 00:14:42,581 --> 00:14:46,485 We confess it because Jesus says that I will send the Spirit and 265 00:14:46,485 --> 00:14:48,220 when he says I will ask the Father to send the Spirit. 266 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,690 So we conclude the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son. 267 00:14:52,224 --> 00:14:56,161 And then the Greek church, they tend to be much more emphasizing the economy and 268 00:14:56,161 --> 00:14:59,999 the hierarchy, and in their mind, the Father sends the Son and 269 00:14:59,999 --> 00:15:02,334 the Father sends the Holy Spirit because he's the boss. 270 00:15:02,801 --> 00:15:05,037 And so that's kind of how the Greeks look at it, the Greek churches. 271 00:15:05,437 --> 00:15:07,973 We though confess the filioque. 272 00:15:07,973 --> 00:15:11,277 When you hear people talking about the filioque, they're talking about that 273 00:15:11,277 --> 00:15:14,713 phrase in the Nicene Creed that says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and 274 00:15:14,713 --> 00:15:19,885 the Son, and it's a strong confession of the Trinitarian reality of the homoousius 275 00:15:19,885 --> 00:15:23,789 of God, that Jesus is really fully God, and he also sends the Spirit. 276 00:15:24,056 --> 00:15:25,958 And there is scripture to back that one up. 277 00:15:26,792 --> 00:15:28,727 All right, good. 278 00:15:29,929 --> 00:15:30,362 Perfect. 279 00:15:31,130 --> 00:15:31,430 Questions? 280 00:15:32,598 --> 00:15:32,765 Yes? 281 00:15:32,765 --> 00:15:36,168 Will the docs have any scripture denying the filioque? 282 00:15:36,168 --> 00:15:39,538 Their biggest thing would be to say there's a distinction between the Father and 283 00:15:39,538 --> 00:15:44,677 the Son, only the Father sends, and there's only one thin verse that says, 284 00:15:44,810 --> 00:15:45,945 I will send the Spirit. 285 00:15:46,545 --> 00:15:49,481 There are others that talk about Jesus asking the Father to send the Spirit, and 286 00:15:49,481 --> 00:15:50,716 they emphasize those. 287 00:15:54,954 --> 00:15:56,588 It kind of goes into what I was thinking. 288 00:15:57,122 --> 00:15:57,389 Okay. 289 00:15:58,791 --> 00:15:59,158 Yeah. 290 00:15:59,858 --> 00:16:01,060 I can't figure out how to answer. 291 00:16:01,060 --> 00:16:01,260 Okay. 292 00:16:01,694 --> 00:16:03,195 If it comes later, you can ask it again. 293 00:16:03,462 --> 00:16:03,829 Not a problem. 294 00:16:04,163 --> 00:16:04,596 Anybody else? 295 00:16:04,830 --> 00:16:05,064 Questions? 296 00:16:06,165 --> 00:16:06,565 Yes. 297 00:16:06,665 --> 00:16:13,138 Well, the whole concept of filioque, wasn't that something that split the church or- 298 00:16:13,138 --> 00:16:14,640 It was an excuse for the split. 299 00:16:14,974 --> 00:16:20,179 The schism between East and West, which came finally in about the 12th century, 300 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,516 1100s, if I remember right, was when you finally had the great schism between East 301 00:16:24,516 --> 00:16:28,153 and West, and so Constantinople split off from Rome, and 302 00:16:28,153 --> 00:16:29,188 said we're not going to listen to you anymore. 303 00:16:29,855 --> 00:16:31,690 There were several excuses for that. 304 00:16:31,757 --> 00:16:34,860 One was the date of Easter, of all things, when we're going to celebrate Easter. 305 00:16:34,860 --> 00:16:39,298 The other one was the filioque, and the biggest issue was who's going to be in 306 00:16:39,298 --> 00:16:43,802 charge, and the date of Easter in the filioque, most scholars, and 307 00:16:43,802 --> 00:16:45,738 I would agree with them, would say those were excuses. 308 00:16:46,005 --> 00:16:47,006 They were ready to split anyway. 309 00:16:47,072 --> 00:16:48,107 It was just over a power grab. 310 00:16:48,340 --> 00:16:48,841 It was politics. 311 00:16:49,108 --> 00:16:54,179 But on the filioque piece of that, what was the disagreement? 312 00:16:54,279 --> 00:16:57,249 Well, it's just kind of the issue of how do we understand God? 313 00:16:57,516 --> 00:17:01,520 Is the Son really sending the Spirit, or is the God more of a hierarchy? 314 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,256 In the Greek church, they tended to go more for that hierarchy. 315 00:17:04,256 --> 00:17:05,591 They liked that kind of ordering. 316 00:17:06,125 --> 00:17:10,729 And so even some of the early Trinitarian doxologies, 317 00:17:11,063 --> 00:17:13,499 we always say the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 318 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:15,801 They would say things like, in the name of the Father, 319 00:17:16,035 --> 00:17:17,336 through the Son, in the Spirit. 320 00:17:18,003 --> 00:17:21,507 And they would throw in these prepositions, which to us sound really weird, but 321 00:17:21,507 --> 00:17:22,474 that was orthodox. 322 00:17:22,641 --> 00:17:26,545 And it still is, because we pray to the Father, through the Son, 323 00:17:26,879 --> 00:17:27,813 in the power of the Holy Spirit. 324 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:28,347 That's true. 325 00:17:28,981 --> 00:17:29,581 And that's right. 326 00:17:29,815 --> 00:17:32,651 And so they just tend to put a bigger emphasis on that than we do. 327 00:17:33,185 --> 00:17:38,724 The biggest split is, we in the Western church basically call it Augustine. 328 00:17:38,857 --> 00:17:40,325 And Augustine was the one who did this. 329 00:17:40,392 --> 00:17:42,795 He was early 5th century, 400s. 330 00:17:42,895 --> 00:17:46,965 And Augustine really broed hard on the homoousius thing and 331 00:17:46,965 --> 00:17:48,033 on the substance of God. 332 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,905 In fact, the Athanasian creed that we confess, how many gods are there? 333 00:17:52,938 --> 00:17:56,041 There's only one God, it's only one immutable, not three mutable. 334 00:17:57,342 --> 00:17:58,310 Remember the Athanasian creed? 335 00:17:58,410 --> 00:18:00,579 We do it once a year, Trinity Sunday, trot that baby out. 336 00:18:02,014 --> 00:18:05,517 And he cranks it, everybody goes, wow, man, that's just blowing me away. 337 00:18:05,818 --> 00:18:08,754 Well, see, the Athanasian creed was not written by Athanasius. 338 00:18:09,421 --> 00:18:11,924 Probably was written by somebody about him of Augustine, 339 00:18:12,057 --> 00:18:14,560 because it's really very Western. 340 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,629 The East does not accept the Athanasian creed, okay? 341 00:18:17,763 --> 00:18:19,932 Because it's putting such a heavy emphasis on the homoousius. 342 00:18:20,265 --> 00:18:23,635 And in the East, they tend just to put a bigger emphasis on the economy of God in 343 00:18:23,635 --> 00:18:24,269 this hierarchy. 344 00:18:24,536 --> 00:18:25,637 That's really the biggest difference. 345 00:18:27,439 --> 00:18:29,675 They're not wrong, we're not wrong. 346 00:18:29,675 --> 00:18:31,710 It's more of an issue of emphasis. 347 00:18:32,144 --> 00:18:35,380 So the filioque, when you get right down to it, is an argument that shouldn't be. 348 00:18:35,981 --> 00:18:38,517 And that's why I would say the biggest reason it became an argument was over 349 00:18:38,517 --> 00:18:38,984 politics. 350 00:18:39,718 --> 00:18:41,253 Constantinople didn't want to follow Rome anymore. 351 00:18:43,122 --> 00:18:45,691 We always talk about the Spirit as proceeding from the Father and Son. 352 00:18:46,558 --> 00:18:51,296 What scripture actually says that the Holy Spirit is an actual person of 353 00:18:51,296 --> 00:18:52,531 the Trinity rather than just an attribute? 354 00:18:53,665 --> 00:18:54,500 That's a good question. 355 00:18:54,833 --> 00:18:56,468 There are actually, it's not just a single scripture. 356 00:18:56,535 --> 00:18:57,836 You can pull all kinds of things together. 357 00:18:57,836 --> 00:19:01,340 Where you've got, one of the biggest ones is Ananias and 358 00:19:01,340 --> 00:19:06,945 Sapphira in Acts when they are sinning against the Holy Spirit, it says. 359 00:19:07,479 --> 00:19:09,715 Okay, you don't sin against the force, all right? 360 00:19:10,182 --> 00:19:13,519 You sin against a person, and so you have the personality there. 361 00:19:13,785 --> 00:19:16,522 You also have in Paul's epistles where Paul would refer to the spirit's 362 00:19:16,522 --> 00:19:19,224 activity among them, and about the spirit being grieved. 363 00:19:19,491 --> 00:19:20,392 Don't grieve the Holy Spirit. 364 00:19:20,459 --> 00:19:21,260 You don't grieve a force. 365 00:19:21,860 --> 00:19:22,728 It's a person. 366 00:19:23,061 --> 00:19:24,296 And so it's more than one verse. 367 00:19:24,396 --> 00:19:27,332 There's quite a few you can find that point to the personhood of the spirit. 368 00:19:27,833 --> 00:19:28,033 Good? 369 00:19:29,601 --> 00:19:31,236 This kind of goes back to the attributes of God. 370 00:19:32,037 --> 00:19:36,475 You're saying that God is God, is the creator, we are the creation. 371 00:19:36,975 --> 00:19:38,043 And God is not like us. 372 00:19:38,443 --> 00:19:41,180 I was wondering about Adam being in the image of God. 373 00:19:41,380 --> 00:19:44,049 Yeah. I mean, we are like him, but he is not like us. 374 00:19:44,116 --> 00:19:44,316 Right. 375 00:19:44,683 --> 00:19:47,886 We reflect God to a point, but God's still God. 376 00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:49,588 He's different than we are altogether. 377 00:19:50,856 --> 00:19:52,925 He's just in a different world than we are in a sense. 378 00:19:53,225 --> 00:19:55,894 He comes to us and condescends to us, but he's still God. 379 00:19:55,894 --> 00:19:58,864 The fact that Adam is created in man's in God's image. 380 00:19:59,264 --> 00:20:00,232 Now that's a huge question. 381 00:20:00,299 --> 00:20:01,300 What does that really mean? 382 00:20:01,833 --> 00:20:06,171 You know, traditionally it means we're rational or, you know, we look like God. 383 00:20:06,705 --> 00:20:07,272 What's that mean? 384 00:20:08,340 --> 00:20:12,544 I tend to think the best explanation on the whole to be created in God's image 385 00:20:12,544 --> 00:20:16,315 is that we represent God to the rest of creation. 386 00:20:16,982 --> 00:20:18,050 We image God to creation. 387 00:20:18,283 --> 00:20:20,085 So man is given dominion over the creation. 388 00:20:20,118 --> 00:20:22,321 In other words, he has the job of taking care of the creation. 389 00:20:22,387 --> 00:20:23,922 That's what God does. Takes care of stuff. 390 00:20:23,922 --> 00:20:28,493 So Adam looks like God in the sense that he's caring for the creation, 391 00:20:28,860 --> 00:20:29,595 having dominion over it. 392 00:20:29,661 --> 00:20:30,262 That's his job. 393 00:20:30,562 --> 00:20:31,797 And that's the image. 394 00:20:31,863 --> 00:20:33,799 And I think that fits pretty well. 395 00:20:34,566 --> 00:20:37,002 But that's, you'll explore that more in systems one. 396 00:20:38,437 --> 00:20:39,871 Just a few months away.