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The ministry. By ministry here, we're not using ministry in

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this kind of wide service sense that gets used. You hear you'll

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get this kind of thing. It was really cool for a while to do

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this church bulletins, where you would have the listing of the

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people and would say, pastor, so and so or I don't know,

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sometimes player coach or something really cool and had

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the guy's name, then they would put ministers and it would be

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all the members of St. Paul's. Something like that. You know,

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the idea that everybody's in ministry, everybody's got this

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job to do. That's a fine idea. But when we're talking about the

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ministry, we're not talking about the priesthood of all

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believers. We're not talking about everybody's responsibility

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to proclaim the gospel, everybody's responsibility to be

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sharing Christ, everybody's responsibility to be faithful in

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That's not what we're talking about the ministry, we're

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talking about specifically we talk we call it the office of

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the Holy Ministry. That's what we're talking about. And the

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Office of the Holy Ministry in our circles now by definition,

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is what we call the pastor. That's it. Now, I should admit

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up front that this whole topic is just quite convoluted in our

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circles right now. And this is not an easy thing to sort out

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because we got lots of different currents of thought going on.

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And I will try to introduce you to a few of the currents of

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thought, and some of the concerns that are here in a very

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cursory sort of way, because we can't possibly unpack this whole

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thing. And then you will discover to your chagrin that

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this topic will get brought up in classes and kind of hinted

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around and talked about. But you're not going to deal with

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this again for quite a while, because it just where it comes

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in the sequence of things. So you'll have this, what will

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also happen almost inevitably, is that as you make your way

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through your seminary career, you will start to form more and

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more opinions about this. And you'll probably find yourself

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kind of settling into one of the other views of this thing. But

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always be careful to kind of know there's a wider and a kind

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of a hot issue on this thing. It's not quite as clean. Some

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people want you to think it is. Having said that, let's talk

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about this a little bit. So the Office of the Holy Ministry, the

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Office of Pastor, where's it come from? That's the big

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problem. That's precisely where a lot of the rub starts. Because

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in a sense, and this is grossly oversimplified, and I know that,

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but it just gives you an idea to kind of where to hang this

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thing. There are two ways of sort of looking at this. One is

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to say the office arises from? There you go. Ah, I heard both

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of them at once. This is so perfect. I couldn't find it

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All right. One quick answer to say the office arrives from God.

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He establishes it. It is his office. So God establishes the

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office. Why do we have pastors because God wants us to. What is

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St. Paul's give the council in the epistles, choose, you know,

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a pastor, establish a pastor, he puts pastors in each place.

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Pastors are chosen by God. God's decision. This is God's plan. So

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it is coming from God as a divine institution. This is

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really important. Now, is that so? Is it a divine institution?

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Yeah, it is. God establishes this. He chooses St. Paul for

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the task. He puts people in the position. Timothy is chosen by

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God for the task. So we have this concept of it being a

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divine institution. And our confessions reflect this. This

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is how our confessions work. Augsburg confession, article 123

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are dealing with God and with sin and just basic stuff like

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that. Article four, you get to justification by grace through

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faith in Jesus Christ alone. Article five talks about good

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works. What are those that then article six talks about how does

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this gospel, this good news get delivered. And article six is

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all about the office of the ministry. So the principle is

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very simple. God has this gospel and he delivers it to us through

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this office of the ministry. So the office of the ministry is

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dealing in the means of grace. That's why we say all the time,

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it's the office of word and sacrament, a word and sacrament

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ministry. What we mean by that is a means of grace ministry. We

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are here doing the means of grace, which means also then

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that the pastor is by definition, he is the

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absolution man. He's the absolution man, might make a

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good superhero. Absolution man. That's what he does. The pastor

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gets to stand in front of people and say, I forgive you your

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sins. Hey, absolvable. I forgive you. And so that's what he does.

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This is his calling. This is his task. This is his one unique

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role he gets to play. Nobody else gets to do this. The

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President of the United States does not get to be absolution

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man. He cannot forgive sins, unless he's part of the

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priesthood of all believers, but he can't do it the same way the

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pastor can. The pastor gets to stand in front of the

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congregation and say, I forgive you your sins. Why? Because as a

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called and ordained servant of the word, and in the stead of my

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Lord Jesus Christ, I declare to you the forgiveness of your

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sins. He's put there by Christ himself. Okay, called and

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ordained servant of the word. So this is one aspect of this.

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There's another way you can answer the question, what is the

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source of the Holy Ministry? Yeah, the congregation. Okay.

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The congregation is the source. And in this view, say that the

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congregation is the source. The idea is that who has the office

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of the keys? To whom is given the power to forgive and retain

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sins? To the saints. Okay, so the office of the keys. That's

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what we mean by that office of the keys means the power to

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forgive and retain sins. Okay. So who has the office of the

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keys? The saints do. And more importantly, the whole church

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does. So do you have the office of the keys given to you? Yes.

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That's why you can forgive your brother. That's why you can do

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it. We don't have to send them to a pastor. So the the idea

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runs this way. If the office of the keys is given to the whole

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church, that means anybody has the authority to stand up and

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forgive sins. Everybody has the responsibility to proclaim

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Christ. Everybody has the ability to go right to God

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himself. That's all true. And so the other side of this is that

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the office of the pastor is derived from the congregation or

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the community of believers. So the community of believers is

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the source of the office. In this train of thought, the

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pastor has authority. Why? Because the congregation vests

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him with that authority. So the authority for the pastor derives

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from the congregation. Authority is given to the pastor. So it

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goes this way. A guy comes into the congregation. What gives him

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legitimacy so that he can stand up in front of the church and

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preach? It is his call. That's why we make a big point about as

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a called and ordained servant of the word. He's called. The call

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of the congregation gives him the authority he needs. So that

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now, because the congregation has given him this authority, he

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is speaking to the congregation on God's behalf. So the

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congregation is clearly involved here in this whole thing. So

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which one is it? Yeah, it's both. It really is. But which

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one you emphasize will shape a lot of how you kind of function.

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If you tend to emphasize strongly that God is the one who

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establishes, you can kind of begin to slide off into a sort

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of, as we like to say derisively, a herr pastor sort

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of attitude. Here I am, I am the pastor. I'm the one who calls

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the shots because God put me here. And everybody else is shut

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up because you're just peons. That attitude is not real good.

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Every once in a while you hear stories where somebody's kind of

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doing that. I've heard stories. I don't know if they're true or

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not. But I hear that maybe that happens. All right. So that's

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one side of it. The other side of it is that, hey, I'm just

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like you. And I'm no different than any of you. And I just

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happened to get kind of stuck into this job. And we're all in

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this thing together here. And I'm nothing special about me.

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That's dumb and wrong, too. All right, because the fact is, the

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pastor is someone special. He is God's absolution man. And he

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does have a responsibility to be speaking on behalf of God. He's

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not like just everybody else. There's a difference. It is. And

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this is one of the big deals here. When God ordains somebody

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and puts them into the Holy Ministry, he becomes pastor and

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we use this word ordain. We'll talk about that in a minute. So

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when a guy becomes a pastor, what happens to him? Is he

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somehow given an indelible imprint? Now, I've got it. I

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feel the power, you know, willing through me, you know.

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And now here I am, absolution man, because the words happen,

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or the magic hands have been put upon me, and the power of all

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the pastors in my circuit have been imbued into me. I'm it.

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Absolution man has arrived. The DP has said the words. All

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right. Yeah, yeah, you go into the sacristy normal, you come

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out. Absolution, man. That's how it works. And the key is in the

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stole. That's where the power is. Only the absolution man

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gets the word stole. All right. So this concept, though, is out

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there. And you have this sort of idea of an indelible character

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that once you're in the office, you're stamped with some kind of

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character, and it goes with you wherever you go. This is how

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Rome looks at it. The Roman Catholic Church understands that

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when a priest becomes a priest, he has now been given a special

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kind of, they call it an indelible character. And he's

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got it because God has set him aside. And now he is priest. It

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doesn't matter if he is serving a parish or not. He's still a

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priest. No matter what he does. He's a priest. This is why the

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Catholic Church is in such a dilemma over this whole sex

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abuse thing. Because the world around wants the church to be

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defrocking defrocking all these guys and throwing them out of

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the priesthood. And the church says, what do you mean? We can't

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do that. They're priest to priest to priest. And that's why

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the Catholic Church will take these bad priests, and they

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shuttle them off into some kind of back room somewhere to some

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kind of retreat center or put them in a monastery or try to

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shelve them somewhere until they die. But they don't want to

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defrock them. They're really reluctant to do that. And it's

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rare to hear about one of these guys actually being defrocked.

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Because how do you, it's sort of like decommissioning, you know,

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how do you do that? How do you make him an unpriest? It just

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doesn't fit their understanding. Because once you've been

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stamped, you've been stamped. That's the way it works. We

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don't see it that way. We don't understand it that way. We

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understand that what God does is God uses the congregation and

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the priesthood of believers. They call this pastor and the

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call is the key thing here. Because he has a call, now he

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has the authority. In the Lutheran Church, and I would

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argue, this is getting now here we are starting into the little

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debate stuff. And there are views on this when things start

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to diverge. And even what I'm giving you up here, people are

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going to dispute this. And if someone else is standing up

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here, they'd be giving you a different spiel. I'm trying to

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be balanced. Do my best. All right. But I would argue that

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it is the call that makes the pastor. And so when a guy does

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not have a call to a congregation, he is not really a

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pastor. He's still seminary trained. He's still Reverend

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because Reverend is the title he has earned by his MDiv. He gets

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to stick MDiv behind his name. So he gets the title Reverend.

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Reverend does not mean pastor. Pastor means called to a

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congregation. And it is on behalf of that congregation

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that he carries out his authority. And like I said, this

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gets sticky and gets rather convoluted. And this is hotly

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being debated in our church right now. We have not figured

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this thing out. We've been debating this for about 150

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years, and really haven't come to terms with it yet. Trying to

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sort this thing out. And one of the reasons why we haven't come

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to terms, I think, is because Scripture does talk both of

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these ways. And gives us both of them. And this kind of is a

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funny thing. So the pastor's authority derives from the

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congregation, but is now he now beholden to the congregation?

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No, no. You see, is he hired by the congregation? No.

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No. No. Pastors not a hireling. He's not hired by the

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congregation. He's got a call. This is the beauty of our

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understanding of the pastoral ministry in the Lutheran

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Church. It's complicated, makes for some problems. But it's a

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cool thing. Because once I as a pastor receive a call from a

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congregation, and I accept that call, I go to the congregation,

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and I'm installed as their pastor. Now, who's pastor am I?

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God's pastor. And what do I speak? God's word to those

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people. Do I have to worry about how the people are going to

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respond? Well, that's a good pastor, I will. But you see, if

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I have a majority of that congregation that doesn't want

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me to talk about giving or tithing, and I know that God has

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called me to be faithful and talk about these things, what am

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I going to do? I'm going to do it. And if that congregation

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doesn't like me, can they fire me? No. Not in a correct

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understanding of the Lutheran polity. Unfortunately, we have

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some congregations that are sliding away from this, which is

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a sad thing. But see, the power of the Lutheran of the call is,

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how do you rescind a call? You only have two reasons for taking

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your call away from a pastor. One is false doctrine. The other

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one is an immoral life. The fact that he's offensive doesn't

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count. The fact that he steps on toes doesn't count. Yeah, I

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think because you see that's, that's why you see have this kind of

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twofold thing. Yeah, the congregation calls you and you're

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a called pastor, and that's where your authority derives.

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But once given an authority, you're God's pastor, and you

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speak God's word to those people, and you are not worrying

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about people like this, are they going to fire me? See, that's a

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big difference between like a Baptist understanding, the

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Baptist congregational nature, congregation hires its pastor

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and fires his pastor for whatever they feel like it.

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You're our servants. In the Lutheran understanding, the

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pastor is not there to serve the whims of the people is there

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to lead those people in God's ways. And so you it's kind of

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like, well, it seems like it's sort of at cross purposes.

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Yeah, that's part of it. And I really think maybe that this is

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one of the greatest struggles for us as Lutherans. And it

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creates real difficulties for us. But I think it's also one of

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the strengths, how we do this, and it creates real

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opportunities for us. And it's a very cool thing. So I don't get

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to just run around being pastor because I'm ordained, I can do

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anything I want. No, I still am responsible to the congregation.

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And the office of the keys, then is not given to me as a pastor.

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Now I've got the office of keys, I can get to run around and give

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them to whoever I want. No, the office of keys belongs to the

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whole congregation. I am exercising them publicly on

250
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behalf of the congregation. And that's why we call this the

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public ministry. Public does not just mean it happens on Sunday

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morning in front of everybody. Even if I'm doing counseling one

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on one, I'm still exercising the public ministry because what

254
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this means is I am carrying out the ministry of this congregation

255
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on behalf of and in the name of this congregation. And that's

256
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part of the difference then between the priesthood of all

257
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believers and the public ministry. And the priesthood of

258
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all believers, when you are forgiving sins, you're not doing

259
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it the name of the congregation, you're doing it in the name of

260
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Christ, because you are Christ's child. And you can do that thing

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because the priesthood of all believers, the pastor is doing

262
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it on behalf of it in the name of the congregation, because

263
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they're the ones who invested in with that authority. That is

264
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also though, functioning at God's behest, doing things the

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way God wants it to be done. So in a very real sense, position

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one, reminds us that the pastor is not beholden to the

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priesthood of all believers. And I agree with that. But position

268
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two reminds us that he serves because of the authority that is

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given there. That's true as well. Like I said, it's hard to

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reconcile these, but I really do believe they're both

271
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scriptural and both accurate. John said there were two reasons

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that a pastor could be dismissed. It was living in

273
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immoral life, I think, yeah, immoral behavior and false

274
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doctrine. Okay. What if the past, I get confused when you

275
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said beholden, because obviously, even in a call

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position, you have responsibility to the

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congregation. If you don't show up at work, well, you're not

278
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living an immoral life and you're not, you're not preaching

279
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false doctrine, but you're not doing your job. Well, no, yeah,

280
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you'd be you'd be if you're not showing up at work, that's

281
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negligent. You're not doing your task and you're at the immoral.

282
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That would be failure. I mean, sure, sure. You're not I mean,

283
00:18:33,412 --> 00:18:38,383
not. But if I preach, you know, offensively, that's that doesn't

284
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count. That's hardly grounds. And you see churches, though,

285
00:18:42,454 --> 00:18:43,822
that kind of scrambling around trying to figure out how to get

286
00:18:43,822 --> 00:18:46,091
rid of pastors. Now there are creative ways to get rid of a

287
00:18:46,091 --> 00:18:49,628
pastor. And you don't have to take his call away from them.

288
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You can just cut a salary. And you can do that. So there are

289
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there are plenty of creative things you can do as a

290
00:18:54,967 --> 00:18:57,903
congregation if you really want to play dirty. And you can do it

291
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and still meet the spirit of wow, he still has his call, or

292
00:19:01,507 --> 00:19:03,976
you haven't taken his call away from him. But you can sure make

293
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his life miserable and drive him out. And congregations are

294
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sometimes very good at doing that. Yeah.

295
00:19:12,951 --> 00:19:16,255
It might be simplifying it, but someone explained to me as the

296
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pastor as the shepherd and Kolb refers to it too is that the

297
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sheep might don't dictate to the shepherd. That's right, how he

298
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directs things. That's right. The shepherd may whack a sheep to

299
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get him back into the past. Right. But he that's his job.

300
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That's right. You know, he has to care for the dance. Right.

301
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That's right.

302
00:19:37,075 --> 00:19:39,912
That's right. But he's also a shepherd only because there are

303
00:19:39,912 --> 00:19:43,115
sheep in a sense and you know, and he and he is there to care

304
00:19:43,115 --> 00:19:46,685
for them as well. Kolb does a nice job of kind of portraying

305
00:19:46,685 --> 00:19:48,887
the kind of humble attitude you need to have as you approach

306
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this. And that's the key thing here. There needs to be a real

307
00:19:51,223 --> 00:19:54,293
humility on the part of the pastor and on the part of the

308
00:19:54,293 --> 00:19:57,963
people. And the congregation tends to really like this aspect

309
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of it. Pastors tend to zero in on this aspect of it. They both

310
00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:03,802
need to be there. The pastor needs to have a spirit of

311
00:20:03,802 --> 00:20:06,972
humility. I'm here to be your servant. Sometimes that calls me

312
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to do hard things. But I'm here because I love you and I care

313
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about you. And the congregation needs to be there to say, we

314
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want you to be our pastor, and we want you to lead the right

315
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ways. Do it. And we support you in this we trust you in this.

316
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That's the right kind of attitude. We need to cultivate

317
00:20:18,750 --> 00:20:21,820
that attitude a lot more, instead of kind of adversarial,

318
00:20:22,087 --> 00:20:24,556
where the pastor is trying to protect his turf congregations

319
00:20:24,556 --> 00:20:27,593
trying to protect their turf. And that's really a bad news

320
00:20:27,593 --> 00:20:30,162
thing. But that happens to you have congregations. Well, we've

321
00:20:30,162 --> 00:20:32,397
been around here 100 plus years and no pastor is going to come

322
00:20:32,397 --> 00:20:35,000
in and change us. You know, we'll be here long after you

323
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,070
leave. That attitude isn't healthy. And who no one benefits

324
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:40,706
from that. But also nobody benefits from the pastor coming

325
00:20:40,706 --> 00:20:43,842
in and playing herr pastor. I'm the pastor, this is the way

326
00:20:43,842 --> 00:20:46,345
it's going to be. It's my way or the highway that doesn't help

327
00:20:46,345 --> 00:20:51,016
anybody either. You're not benefiting. This creates a nice

328
00:20:51,016 --> 00:20:55,220
tension, which is healthy. But see, I think we need to be

329
00:20:55,220 --> 00:20:58,090
careful. We don't drop the ball on either side of this thing.

330
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Because if you go too far here, you elevate the office of the

331
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,429
pastor so high that people feel they have nothing to do

332
00:21:04,429 --> 00:21:07,866
insignificant, no role. That's a bad thing. On the other hand,

333
00:21:08,033 --> 00:21:10,936
you have the people who kind of, well, I'm just like you, I'm

334
00:21:10,936 --> 00:21:13,705
just your coach kind of thing. And he's not a pastor. He's just

335
00:21:13,705 --> 00:21:17,676
Joe, everybody. And you get the pastor, Fred kind of thing going

336
00:21:17,676 --> 00:21:21,146
and you know, he's all the buddy kind of thing. And I think that

337
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really hurts the office. And for quite a while in our church

338
00:21:25,217 --> 00:21:29,054
body, that was the move that we were going. And this is also

339
00:21:29,054 --> 00:21:32,758
sometimes known as a functional view, that what makes him a

340
00:21:32,758 --> 00:21:35,294
pastor, while he's doing pastor things, it's just a functional

341
00:21:35,294 --> 00:21:38,630
thing. Anybody can do it. And whoever, whoever's functioning

342
00:21:38,630 --> 00:21:41,466
as pastor this week, he's the pastor, that sort of a

343
00:21:41,466 --> 00:21:44,636
functional view, really degrades the office and takes away from

344
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it. Because the office is a sacred institution. And it is

345
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you are God's man when you're in this office. And you need to

346
00:21:50,409 --> 00:21:54,212
realize that. I guess I would say quite frankly, this is hard

347
00:21:54,212 --> 00:21:58,350
for some guys. Some guys want to be the buddy and the pal and

348
00:21:58,350 --> 00:22:00,952
just one of the guys. And they have this tendency to sort of

349
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diminish the office intentionally. I think that's

350
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unfortunate. Because when you become a pastor, you're a pastor

351
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and that may put you in a different realm. Read First

352
00:22:10,095 --> 00:22:13,231
Timothy three. What are the criteria for being a pastor?

353
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It's different than it is for being a Christian. You know, God

354
00:22:17,202 --> 00:22:20,839
doesn't require husband of one wife, household in order, you

355
00:22:20,839 --> 00:22:23,041
know, able to teach that's not a requirement for being a

356
00:22:23,041 --> 00:22:26,411
Christian. There are none. But a pastor has those criteria. It's

357
00:22:26,411 --> 00:22:29,414
different. So that's why we also are in trouble on this

358
00:22:29,414 --> 00:22:32,851
where, you know, this guy's a great guy, he should be a pastor

359
00:22:32,851 --> 00:22:36,388
just not every great guy should be a pastor. There are criteria

360
00:22:36,388 --> 00:22:40,425
there are you need to meet certain obligations and and

361
00:22:40,425 --> 00:22:43,995
standards, because you have a role to play, which is very

362
00:22:43,995 --> 00:22:49,434
significant. So in other words, I'm really encouraging you to be

363
00:22:49,434 --> 00:22:52,971
pastor to people and realize that means you can't be buddy.

364
00:22:53,505 --> 00:22:56,475
And sometimes that even means you can't have real tight

365
00:22:56,475 --> 00:22:58,343
friends within your own congregation. I know that sounds

366
00:22:58,343 --> 00:23:01,646
like heresy. But it's pretty hard to be real close friends

367
00:23:01,646 --> 00:23:03,248
with people in your congregation. If you're also

368
00:23:03,248 --> 00:23:06,885
responsible for calling them to task and being there for them in

369
00:23:06,885 --> 00:23:09,187
tough situations and all that kind of thing. It gets hard.

370
00:23:10,188 --> 00:23:12,124
It's just the way it is in ministry.

371
00:23:13,358 --> 00:23:15,927
It seems like it would also be really hard to have family

372
00:23:15,927 --> 00:23:17,262
members in your own congregation.

373
00:23:17,896 --> 00:23:20,799
It can be that can make it challenging because you've got

374
00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:22,834
to be pastor to them at the same time as your family to

375
00:23:22,834 --> 00:23:25,804
them. And that can be tough. I've been in that situation. And

376
00:23:25,804 --> 00:23:29,174
I I'll Yeah, it's not the easiest thing. But um, that can

377
00:23:29,174 --> 00:23:31,843
be done as well. It's just you got to be conscious of it. And

378
00:23:31,843 --> 00:23:33,678
that's probably the biggest thing. Just be conscious of who

379
00:23:33,678 --> 00:23:36,047
you are. I'm not saying you don't, you can't go hang out

380
00:23:36,047 --> 00:23:37,516
with people in your congregation, but you always

381
00:23:37,516 --> 00:23:40,552
need to be conscious of who you are. You are pastor. Yeah,

382
00:23:40,752 --> 00:23:45,023
you're Joel, and you are a person, but you're pastor. And

383
00:23:45,023 --> 00:23:47,359
that's part of that vocation thing. You're living in lots of

384
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,895
different things. And you need to realize that you are pastor

385
00:23:49,895 --> 00:23:52,731
to those people 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you don't

386
00:23:52,731 --> 00:23:55,333
take off the pastor hat and put on the here I am playing around

387
00:23:55,333 --> 00:23:57,969
hat now. It doesn't work that way. You're pastor all the time,

388
00:23:58,203 --> 00:24:00,405
you're yourself all the time. And so you need to realize that

389
00:24:00,405 --> 00:24:03,475
in every in any interaction I have within this parish, I need

390
00:24:03,475 --> 00:24:06,945
to do it as the pastor, because I have a responsibility to be

391
00:24:06,945 --> 00:24:09,714
there for them. So I can be the kind of guy that someone will

392
00:24:09,714 --> 00:24:13,018
come to when he is in the crisis in his marriage. And he can

393
00:24:13,018 --> 00:24:15,654
trust me to handle this the right way. Because who he knows

394
00:24:15,654 --> 00:24:18,623
I am, that kind of stuff. See, right, it makes for some

395
00:24:18,623 --> 00:24:19,324
challenge.

396
00:24:19,991 --> 00:24:25,263
You know, keep hearing there's a shortage of availability of

397
00:24:25,263 --> 00:24:31,736
pastors. And so you look at congregations, the congregations

398
00:24:31,736 --> 00:24:38,243
just designate somebody then to, to, to perform duties in the

399
00:24:38,243 --> 00:24:41,713
church as opposed to there's not a call there. It's just a, you

400
00:24:41,713 --> 00:24:44,115
know, okay, you know, you're it.

401
00:24:44,950 --> 00:24:46,218
Type thing. Yeah.

402
00:24:46,885 --> 00:24:49,354
It was the last part of the debate we're having right now.

403
00:24:49,554 --> 00:24:52,224
This is the whole kind of issue. What is it? What do you need to

404
00:24:52,224 --> 00:24:55,227
be to be a pastor? What's it mean to be called? What you're

405
00:24:55,227 --> 00:24:57,963
describing? I would say they're calling him to be their pastor.

406
00:24:58,563 --> 00:25:01,333
The problem is the pastor who they're calling this guy

407
00:25:01,333 --> 00:25:03,535
probably doesn't have the credentials hasn't really been

408
00:25:03,535 --> 00:25:06,538
trained as an isn't prepared for this task. So maybe he shouldn't

409
00:25:06,538 --> 00:25:09,140
be. So that's part of the question. See, the big part of

410
00:25:09,140 --> 00:25:11,676
this debate is how much training do you have to have to be a

411
00:25:11,676 --> 00:25:14,246
passion? You need an MDiv to be a pastor? Well, we decided no,

412
00:25:14,246 --> 00:25:16,915
you don't. You can have a certificate. Well, you need to

413
00:25:16,915 --> 00:25:20,252
go to the sem to be a pastor. Well, that's you mean argued

414
00:25:20,252 --> 00:25:22,721
now to know we have this whole delto thing going, you know, the

415
00:25:22,721 --> 00:25:25,557
distance to education leading to ordination. And then you have

416
00:25:25,557 --> 00:25:28,326
lay pastors. Well, what's it mean to be a lay pastor? How

417
00:25:28,326 --> 00:25:31,630
much you know your situation in Alaska? Are you being a pastor

418
00:25:31,630 --> 00:25:34,266
when you're doing word in second ministry? One camp would say

419
00:25:34,266 --> 00:25:37,335
absolutely you are the campus say no, because you don't have

420
00:25:37,335 --> 00:25:40,105
the training and you're not ordained to see this gets it's

421
00:25:40,105 --> 00:25:42,774
not an easy thing. And we usually what you should be

422
00:25:42,774 --> 00:25:45,110
getting out of this is this gets really complicated really

423
00:25:45,110 --> 00:25:48,446
quick. And people start fighting for turf like crazy on this and

424
00:25:48,446 --> 00:25:53,351
the battle really heats up. And it's this you'll see soon

425
00:25:53,351 --> 00:25:55,353
enough. This gets rather testy.

426
00:25:57,255 --> 00:26:00,825
And I do notice is so much like they they they put

427
00:26:00,825 --> 00:26:05,196
you know, almost assign different levels of

428
00:26:06,164 --> 00:26:08,567
pastorness to you, you know, sure.

429
00:26:09,634 --> 00:26:10,569
versus certificate.

430
00:26:11,570 --> 00:26:16,841
Sure. Well, we can even go STM or you know, you know, sure you

431
00:26:16,841 --> 00:26:18,743
can go up and go down as well. And

432
00:26:19,811 --> 00:26:23,114
yeah, you're right. I tend to be one of these kinds of guys who

433
00:26:23,114 --> 00:26:26,985
would say, if you are called to carry out the task, you are a

434
00:26:26,985 --> 00:26:31,356
pastor. And that's when I'm coming down on this increasingly.

435
00:26:31,723 --> 00:26:35,827
I don't think pastor gets defined by your education, or

436
00:26:35,827 --> 00:26:38,296
by your training. I really believe it's defined by the

437
00:26:38,296 --> 00:26:42,067
call that God put you in, you are pastor. Now, am I ready to

438
00:26:42,067 --> 00:26:44,769
throw open the doors? Not at all. Because I think there's

439
00:26:44,769 --> 00:26:47,772
also great value in the training and helping people to be good

440
00:26:47,772 --> 00:26:50,775
pastors. And so but we've got to figure out how to balance that

441
00:26:50,775 --> 00:26:53,745
to the education thing. That's not an easy thing.

442
00:26:56,748 --> 00:27:00,285
So this is maybe a side note we can talk about later. But you

443
00:27:00,285 --> 00:27:03,188
know, when you look at the certificate versus the MDiv

444
00:27:04,222 --> 00:27:08,493
type program, you know, when you complete the coursework

445
00:27:08,994 --> 00:27:09,394
certificate,

446
00:27:10,829 --> 00:27:11,930
what do they call you?

447
00:27:13,398 --> 00:27:15,300
They call you pastor, because you're called.

448
00:27:15,967 --> 00:27:18,303
But if you're not called yet, I mean, you know, because we're

449
00:27:18,303 --> 00:27:18,637
making it.

450
00:27:18,637 --> 00:27:21,539
Oh, they call you vicar. You're a vicar for a year. But see,

451
00:27:21,606 --> 00:27:24,142
you're still a student at that point. I think it's complicated.

452
00:27:26,144 --> 00:27:28,480
Well, that's the that's the funny thing about our certificate

453
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,117
program, because you go out in after your two years here, you

454
00:27:32,117 --> 00:27:35,720
go out your third year as a vicar, but it's what we call a

455
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,224
convertible vicarage. And so you get placed in the congregation

456
00:27:39,224 --> 00:27:42,293
and you are there vicar under the supervision of a pastor, who

457
00:27:42,293 --> 00:27:45,730
knows how involved in your ministry, and you start carrying

458
00:27:45,730 --> 00:27:48,366
out your ministry. And then a year later, you graduate from

459
00:27:48,366 --> 00:27:51,169
the from the seminary, or you get your certificate, and you

460
00:27:51,169 --> 00:27:54,172
are certified to be a pastor, and then you get ordained and

461
00:27:54,172 --> 00:27:56,975
you get installed. And you go into the pulpit the next Sunday,

462
00:27:57,208 --> 00:27:58,877
do the same thing you're doing the Sunday before.

463
00:28:00,545 --> 00:28:04,549
You know, and so yeah, it's it's it's a little bit odd. No

464
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:06,217
doubt about it.

465
00:28:06,718 --> 00:28:09,487
That's one of those things that I looked at before I looked at

466
00:28:09,487 --> 00:28:13,858
the seminary was lay minister certification. It's two to four

467
00:28:13,858 --> 00:28:19,464
years of education. Not so many credit hours, however you look

468
00:28:19,464 --> 00:28:23,368
at it. At the end of it, you can receive a call to assist a

469
00:28:23,368 --> 00:28:23,735
pastor.

470
00:28:24,502 --> 00:28:27,472
Or in some situations to function as a pastor in some

471
00:28:27,472 --> 00:28:32,577
remote Alaskan, Montana area or something. Yeah. Or nobody wants

472
00:28:32,577 --> 00:28:32,977
to go.

473
00:28:34,212 --> 00:28:36,147
Well, actually, everybody wants to go but nobody can get there.

474
00:28:36,314 --> 00:28:37,182
Everybody wants to be in Alaska.

475
00:28:39,084 --> 00:28:40,819
All right, only only a few are chosen.

476
00:28:43,788 --> 00:28:44,589
All right.

477
00:28:46,091 --> 00:28:49,594
Auxiliary offices, then how many offices are established in

478
00:28:49,594 --> 00:28:52,931
Scripture, only the Office of the Ministry. So the Office of

479
00:28:52,931 --> 00:28:55,734
the Holy Ministry is established the Office of Teacher or

480
00:28:55,734 --> 00:28:59,137
deaconess or deacon or lay minister. All of these really

481
00:28:59,137 --> 00:29:03,174
are auxiliary offices supportive of the Office of the Ministry.

482
00:29:03,508 --> 00:29:06,711
The Office of the Ministry's job is word and sacrament means of

483
00:29:06,711 --> 00:29:09,047
grace. It's a means of grace ministry. And these auxiliary

484
00:29:09,047 --> 00:29:12,584
offices then assist the accomplishment of these offices.

485
00:29:12,884 --> 00:29:16,321
And again, here, we're in touchy territory. And people get real

486
00:29:16,321 --> 00:29:19,524
funny about this one and start fighting for turf. I'm an office

487
00:29:19,524 --> 00:29:22,427
to I'm a legitimate called office from God. And this is

488
00:29:22,427 --> 00:29:25,563
what God has established. But if you look at Scripture, you have

489
00:29:25,563 --> 00:29:27,999
to come to the conclusion that the Office of the Ministry is

490
00:29:27,999 --> 00:29:30,668
established. And the other ones are all underneath this one.

491
00:29:33,104 --> 00:29:35,373
Let's see. Yeah, go ahead.

492
00:29:36,374 --> 00:29:40,945
Looking at like DCE's and things like that, they come up through

493
00:29:40,945 --> 00:29:45,150
that program. Those are called positions also. Yeah, right.

494
00:29:46,351 --> 00:29:51,055
Yeah, they still are. And see, this gets really, it's very

495
00:29:51,055 --> 00:29:53,725
complicated, because now the left hand realm intrudes. And

496
00:29:53,725 --> 00:29:58,296
you have things like tax law and all kinds of stuff that is

497
00:29:58,296 --> 00:30:01,933
different for pastors or called servants of the word than it is

498
00:30:01,933 --> 00:30:07,305
for non called people. And so the IRS will define a minister

499
00:30:07,305 --> 00:30:10,475
of the gospel differently than we do. And so you get all these

500
00:30:10,475 --> 00:30:14,846
kinds of funny things. So like a DCE or even a Lutheran school

501
00:30:14,846 --> 00:30:18,583
teacher who has a call will have to is considered in a sense, a

502
00:30:18,583 --> 00:30:22,420
minister of the gospel by the IRS and can get all the tax breaks,

503
00:30:22,420 --> 00:30:25,323
if you want to call them that a pastor gets, but then also have,

504
00:30:25,456 --> 00:30:29,160
you know, it's just it's a funny thing. You know, we have our

505
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,496
understanding. So we have a theological issue, which is

506
00:30:31,496 --> 00:30:33,832
trying to sort out the theology of this, then you have a whole

507
00:30:34,465 --> 00:30:37,368
political, legal, sociological issue, which is a different

508
00:30:37,368 --> 00:30:40,305
animal altogether. And they're both going on. And so that's why

509
00:30:40,305 --> 00:30:42,574
when you call the synod for advice on this, it kind of

510
00:30:42,574 --> 00:30:45,510
depends on who you're talking to. And the synod tends to look

511
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:49,347
at it more from a left hand polity sort of a thing. Whereas

512
00:30:49,347 --> 00:30:51,482
around here, the seminary, we tend to look at it more as a

513
00:30:51,482 --> 00:30:54,586
theological thing. And what's the theology behind it, but both

514
00:30:54,586 --> 00:30:59,224
of them matter. And it gets confusing. So we call DCE's is

515
00:30:59,224 --> 00:31:02,026
that's fine. They're called to this task. But now the IRS steps

516
00:31:02,026 --> 00:31:03,995
in and says, Well, then you're just like pastor no different in

517
00:31:03,995 --> 00:31:04,596
our eyes.

518
00:31:05,964 --> 00:31:07,565
In our mind, big difference.

519
00:31:10,501 --> 00:31:14,906
I've met a bunch of pastors who don't never really received a

520
00:31:14,906 --> 00:31:19,410
call from a congregation, but they were the clerical and

521
00:31:19,410 --> 00:31:22,981
they're ordained. They work as pastors. Like for instance, a

522
00:31:22,981 --> 00:31:26,451
pastor in our congregation heads up life path hospice at home. I

523
00:31:26,451 --> 00:31:29,287
worked with four pastors at the county jail who were chaplains

524
00:31:29,287 --> 00:31:32,590
there and conducted services regularly in the jail.

525
00:31:34,292 --> 00:31:38,563
The call the call didn't really come from. I mean, one of my

526
00:31:38,563 --> 00:31:41,833
friends who works in the jail is not only an ordained pastor, but

527
00:31:41,833 --> 00:31:43,635
he's a detective also.

528
00:31:43,635 --> 00:31:48,706
Um, that but he wasn't, I don't, I don't know if he was called

529
00:31:48,706 --> 00:31:54,078
exactly he works. He's a deputy, he's the sheriff's department.

530
00:31:55,980 --> 00:31:59,851
You get a lot of, you know, situations where you maybe have

531
00:31:59,851 --> 00:32:02,186
kind of strange arrangements worked out in different

532
00:32:02,186 --> 00:32:06,724
situations. We also have the the rather odd way of doing things

533
00:32:06,724 --> 00:32:09,794
where we have institutions who are also able to call. So

534
00:32:09,794 --> 00:32:12,330
coming, technically, a congregation is what makes a

535
00:32:12,330 --> 00:32:16,901
calls them, but my call is to a seminary. So the seminary Board

536
00:32:16,901 --> 00:32:20,705
of Regents have given me my call to be a professor. So it's kind

537
00:32:20,705 --> 00:32:24,175
of an odd sort of a thing. And you can even have a district

538
00:32:24,175 --> 00:32:28,379
calling a pastor to be a minister, a missionary starting

539
00:32:28,379 --> 00:32:31,916
a congregation. Is he a pastor? Yeah, the district is calling.

540
00:32:32,216 --> 00:32:35,086
Well, I see that's another thing we argue about. Can a district

541
00:32:35,086 --> 00:32:37,956
really call? Is it really a congregation? Not really. And so

542
00:32:37,956 --> 00:32:41,526
see, we get all these kinds of really lively discussions about

543
00:32:41,526 --> 00:32:42,226
all this.

544
00:32:42,994 --> 00:32:45,596
The whole thing with missionary work to go create a

545
00:32:45,596 --> 00:32:48,599
congregation. Right. So when what whose authority do you do

546
00:32:48,599 --> 00:32:53,104
that? You know, I know some seminary is where you'll have a

547
00:32:53,104 --> 00:32:56,274
mother church will call the man and then send him to be a

548
00:32:56,274 --> 00:32:59,177
pastor. That probably makes better theological sense if

549
00:32:59,177 --> 00:33:02,447
it's better with our polity than an institution doing it. But

550
00:33:02,447 --> 00:33:05,049
then others say, let's not get so hung up on this. We know we

551
00:33:05,049 --> 00:33:07,352
don't want to know what we're talking about. We have survived

552
00:33:07,352 --> 00:33:11,022
this part, this lot of doing it. But again, this is just more

553
00:33:11,022 --> 00:33:14,692
evidence for my contention that this is not a clear issue in our

554
00:33:14,692 --> 00:33:18,096
Senate at all. And there's all kinds of debate about what

555
00:33:18,096 --> 00:33:21,232
really is going on, how we're to understand this. And you would

556
00:33:21,232 --> 00:33:23,968
get a whole nother take on this. If you talk to a DP for a little

557
00:33:23,968 --> 00:33:27,772
while, he will give you another district president in our, you

558
00:33:27,772 --> 00:33:31,175
know, in one of our Synod districts, they'll give you a

559
00:33:31,175 --> 00:33:33,011
different take on the whole thing from his perspective.

560
00:33:36,214 --> 00:33:40,985
Alright, so pastor then is functioning on God's behalf, and

561
00:33:40,985 --> 00:33:43,054
functioning on behalf of the congregation. What is it that

562
00:33:43,054 --> 00:33:45,823
makes the power for the pastor, it's always the same thing. It's

563
00:33:45,823 --> 00:33:50,294
the word. Because God has called him to proclaim the word. The

564
00:33:50,294 --> 00:33:53,164
word is what empowers his ministry. And the word is what

565
00:33:53,164 --> 00:33:56,534
also gives the congregation a strength because the the opposite

566
00:33:56,534 --> 00:33:58,903
of the keys has been given to the church. They have that

567
00:33:58,903 --> 00:33:59,904
authority as well.

568
00:34:04,075 --> 00:34:06,644
I'm making sure I don't leave any details out here. Women

569
00:34:06,644 --> 00:34:09,347
ordination, we have 10 minutes, that's just enough time.

570
00:34:10,148 --> 00:34:12,984
Probably, probably nine minutes too long. We don't believe in

571
00:34:12,984 --> 00:34:13,951
it. That's

572
00:34:14,685 --> 00:34:16,487
for many good reasons.

573
00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:22,693
And we don't express those reasons very well all the time.

574
00:34:23,227 --> 00:34:26,431
Bottom line reason why we don't ordain women, I would argue, is

575
00:34:26,431 --> 00:34:30,902
because God has built into his creation a certain design or

576
00:34:30,902 --> 00:34:35,006
order. And in that order, there is a distinction between men and

577
00:34:35,006 --> 00:34:38,042
women. And that's how God wants it, especially in the Christian

578
00:34:38,042 --> 00:34:40,812
home. And in the church, we reflect that and in the wider

579
00:34:40,812 --> 00:34:44,081
society, we should also reflect that. And to be respectful of

580
00:34:44,081 --> 00:34:47,351
that is doing way doing it the way God wants it. And to go

581
00:34:47,351 --> 00:34:51,923
ahead and ordain women is to flaunt and negate what God has

582
00:34:51,923 --> 00:34:55,393
established and act like it doesn't matter. And so the issue

583
00:34:55,393 --> 00:34:57,328
of ordination of women has nothing to do with

584
00:34:57,328 --> 00:35:01,699
qualifications or skills or abilities, or capabilities,

585
00:35:02,366 --> 00:35:05,570
nothing to do with it, it has to do with being faithful to the

586
00:35:05,570 --> 00:35:08,873
way God has put the universe or the world together and doing

587
00:35:08,873 --> 00:35:13,144
things his way. So there's my one minute questions on that.

588
00:35:13,611 --> 00:35:15,079
How do other denominations

589
00:35:16,013 --> 00:35:19,684
other denominations make the move of saying, Galatians 3:28

590
00:35:19,684 --> 00:35:22,720
says there is no male or female, Jew nor Greek, all we are all

591
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:25,256
one in Christ, therefore, this thinks that have been negated.

592
00:35:25,623 --> 00:35:29,494
And my response to that is to say, that's right. vertical

593
00:35:29,494 --> 00:35:33,364
relationship before God, we are all one, there is no difference,

594
00:35:33,364 --> 00:35:36,234
all equally under God's judgment, all equally under his

595
00:35:36,234 --> 00:35:41,572
gospel, great. But in the left hand realm, in this world, how

596
00:35:41,572 --> 00:35:44,609
we still function, there are still clearly distinctions, men

597
00:35:44,609 --> 00:35:47,645
and women aren't the same, different responsibilities,

598
00:35:48,012 --> 00:35:51,215
different roles. And in the church, we respect that. And we

599
00:35:51,215 --> 00:35:54,218
reflect that as we should. And I would even make the argument

600
00:35:54,218 --> 00:35:56,754
that we should also respect that and reflect that in the wider

601
00:35:56,754 --> 00:35:59,524
society. Right now, our wider society would hear none of that.

602
00:35:59,524 --> 00:36:01,192
But I do believe that's also the case.

603
00:36:02,460 --> 00:36:02,927
Jeremy,

604
00:36:03,394 --> 00:36:04,595
all right.

605
00:36:05,429 --> 00:36:05,897
You've been waiting.

606
00:36:08,266 --> 00:36:12,503
All right, so my senior pastor is a man, why can't my assistant

607
00:36:12,503 --> 00:36:13,104
pastor be a woman?

608
00:36:13,604 --> 00:36:17,808
Because, no, because she's still carrying out the

609
00:36:17,808 --> 00:36:22,547
responsibilities of the pastor, and is functioning as pastor and

610
00:36:22,547 --> 00:36:26,551
an assistant. Now, so he's the head fine, but don't call her a

611
00:36:26,551 --> 00:36:29,921
pastor, then she should be, she could be functioning in a

612
00:36:29,921 --> 00:36:34,425
capacity of, you know, serving, helping, assisting the work, not

613
00:36:34,425 --> 00:36:37,161
a pastor, because it creates all kinds of confusion in the minds

614
00:36:37,161 --> 00:36:37,695
of people.

615
00:36:39,030 --> 00:36:40,298
Women handing out communion.

616
00:36:41,065 --> 00:36:44,936
All right. The validity of the sacrament has nothing to do with

617
00:36:44,936 --> 00:36:48,472
who does it. So can a woman hand out communion, distribute might

618
00:36:48,472 --> 00:36:51,075
be a better way to, you know, just sounds better.

619
00:36:52,577 --> 00:36:56,013
Yeah. So can a woman distribute communion? Yes, she can

620
00:36:56,013 --> 00:36:58,115
distribute the sacrament and it doesn't negate the sacrament.

621
00:36:58,115 --> 00:37:02,653
And she can do that even in a submissive way. However, and

622
00:37:02,653 --> 00:37:05,990
this is the big however, I would say that in just about every

623
00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:08,693
instance of a woman helping with communion that I have heard of,

624
00:37:08,859 --> 00:37:11,229
usually it's because there's some kind of an agenda going on

625
00:37:11,229 --> 00:37:14,232
where the congregation is sort of pushing the envelope a

626
00:37:14,232 --> 00:37:16,968
little bit and doesn't like the position of no women's

627
00:37:16,968 --> 00:37:18,736
ordination and is doing everything it can to sort of

628
00:37:18,736 --> 00:37:22,006
undo it. Because I haven't heard of a situation yet where you

629
00:37:22,006 --> 00:37:24,108
have a congregation, we just don't have any men available.

630
00:37:24,575 --> 00:37:29,013
Woman had to do it. That is not the case. It's, it's, it's, it's

631
00:37:29,013 --> 00:37:31,949
an it's a motive of trying to empower and this kind of stuff.

632
00:37:32,383 --> 00:37:35,586
And I would say it's a bogus motive. And does it create

633
00:37:35,586 --> 00:37:38,489
confusion? I would argue it certainly does. Because in the

634
00:37:38,489 --> 00:37:41,225
minds of the people that say, Oh, look, isn't that nice. She's

635
00:37:41,225 --> 00:37:44,562
doing stuff that pastor does. She's being like a pastor. I

636
00:37:44,562 --> 00:37:47,098
guess that's kind of nice. I wonder why women can't be

637
00:37:47,098 --> 00:37:49,867
pastors. That's exactly why they're doing it.

638
00:37:49,867 --> 00:37:52,770
Isn't that basically what the CTCR documents are?

639
00:37:52,837 --> 00:37:56,040
The CTCR document, and I'll go on tape and on record saying

640
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,343
this, everybody out there in TV land, I think the CTCR

641
00:37:59,343 --> 00:38:03,848
document, especially the most recent one is lame. Okay, I

642
00:38:03,848 --> 00:38:07,218
really do. I think it blew it. Because the CTCR is reflecting

643
00:38:07,718 --> 00:38:10,855
an increasing attitude in our Synod of trying to be

644
00:38:10,855 --> 00:38:13,291
accommodating, trying to be in step with the rest of the world.

645
00:38:13,357 --> 00:38:16,894
And we are neglecting the whole order of creation and the design

646
00:38:16,894 --> 00:38:20,031
of creation. The latest, you can watch this progression, the

647
00:38:20,031 --> 00:38:22,767
CTCR documents on women in the church. It used to be that was

648
00:38:22,767 --> 00:38:25,336
the central argument. Now that has just kind of gotten shunted

649
00:38:25,336 --> 00:38:28,506
off. We don't talk about that very much. And now, what we've

650
00:38:28,506 --> 00:38:31,309
got in our Senate now is a situation where, why don't we

651
00:38:31,309 --> 00:38:33,544
have women pastors? Well, the Bible tells us we shouldn't.

652
00:38:33,611 --> 00:38:36,280
That's the only reason why we do it. So they can do anything

653
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,450
else up to that point. So we start just playing these games.

654
00:38:39,650 --> 00:38:41,352
Can she do this? Can she do this? Can she do this? And we're

655
00:38:41,352 --> 00:38:43,888
missing the whole point of it. The whole point is, God has

656
00:38:43,888 --> 00:38:46,390
established this wonderful order, a man and a woman

657
00:38:46,390 --> 00:38:48,492
functioning together in a marriage, and the church should

658
00:38:48,492 --> 00:38:51,329
reflect that. And we should be supporting that and embracing

659
00:38:51,329 --> 00:38:53,898
that. But instead, we have just left that behind because we're

660
00:38:53,898 --> 00:38:56,901
embarrassed by it. And the world doesn't like it. So we just kind

661
00:38:56,901 --> 00:38:58,869
of leave it behind. And we act like it's not there. And we're

662
00:38:58,869 --> 00:39:01,505
now in the business of trying to empower everybody. And we're

663
00:39:01,505 --> 00:39:04,175
coming up with a lot of stupid policy, a lot of stupid

664
00:39:04,175 --> 00:39:07,244
practice. And I find it quite reprehensible. And to be honest,

665
00:39:07,311 --> 00:39:10,514
I didn't have this position always. I didn't come to this

666
00:39:10,514 --> 00:39:12,450
position easily. I used to be kind of, you know, all the

667
00:39:12,450 --> 00:39:14,819
CTCR's got it right. This is fine. This is cool. You should

668
00:39:14,819 --> 00:39:16,987
do anything about being a pastor. And I've changed my

669
00:39:16,987 --> 00:39:20,558
mind to that entirely, based on the study I've done on it. And I

670
00:39:20,558 --> 00:39:23,260
was kind of forced into it because last last quarter, I was

671
00:39:23,260 --> 00:39:25,863
teaching a class on this. The more I dug into this more read

672
00:39:25,863 --> 00:39:28,432
about it, and it's just overwhelming. It's all about the

673
00:39:28,432 --> 00:39:33,137
design God's order of creation. And to ignore that is really to

674
00:39:33,137 --> 00:39:36,006
be, I would say to be unfaithful. And I think in our

675
00:39:36,006 --> 00:39:38,409
church body right now, we're not being faithful as we should be

676
00:39:38,409 --> 00:39:42,213
on this issue. And we will pay the price. I would even go so

677
00:39:42,213 --> 00:39:46,884
far as to say this, that given the current trajectory, it's

678
00:39:46,884 --> 00:39:49,186
only a matter of time before we're considering ordination of

679
00:39:49,186 --> 00:39:52,790
women. Given the current trajectory because of the path

680
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:56,293
we've set off ourselves, it's the wrong one. Yeah, Aaron.

681
00:39:56,494 --> 00:40:00,064
I completely agree with you. But as a pastor, if you're called to

682
00:40:00,064 --> 00:40:02,266
a congregation that's very liberal, and is doing all this

683
00:40:02,266 --> 00:40:06,003
second guessing, should it be your goal as the good shepherd

684
00:40:06,003 --> 00:40:08,005
to try to force them to stop?

685
00:40:08,506 --> 00:40:09,974
Force? I mean, that's good.

686
00:40:09,974 --> 00:40:11,876
That's not a bad word.

687
00:40:14,612 --> 00:40:17,715
Let's see again, what is your task? Your task is to bring God's

688
00:40:17,715 --> 00:40:19,984
truth to them. And if they're in error, you need to bring it

689
00:40:19,984 --> 00:40:23,053
pointed out. Is it the best way to do it? Does he know stand up

690
00:40:23,053 --> 00:40:25,790
your first Sunday and go on record and laid out there on the

691
00:40:25,790 --> 00:40:30,895
gauntlet? Probably not. Educate, educate, educate, you spend

692
00:40:30,895 --> 00:40:33,564
years getting them, you teach them, you walk them through the

693
00:40:33,564 --> 00:40:36,600
stuff you do and you do an innocent Bible study on Genesis.

694
00:40:37,201 --> 00:40:40,571
You talk about creation, and you really dig into this. And you

695
00:40:40,571 --> 00:40:42,973
start really teaching God's design. We do a Bible study on

696
00:40:42,973 --> 00:40:45,009
merit, you start really teaching this stuff. And people start

697
00:40:45,009 --> 00:40:47,178
saying, well, that's what God really says. Then they start

698
00:40:47,178 --> 00:40:50,214
thinking, they put two and two together, huh, maybe this has

699
00:40:50,214 --> 00:40:52,349
implications. You see, that's the way you do it. You do it

700
00:40:52,349 --> 00:40:54,518
gently, you take your time, and you might have to bite back and

701
00:40:54,518 --> 00:40:56,620
swallow hard for a while and some stuff that's going on.

702
00:40:56,887 --> 00:40:58,289
There are some things you're gonna be able to just have to

703
00:40:58,289 --> 00:41:01,792
say, no, that just can't happen. And you have to be judicious

704
00:41:01,792 --> 00:41:05,262
about those and be try to pick them carefully. But um, that's

705
00:41:05,262 --> 00:41:07,731
part of being a pastor, being diplomatic and being deft about

706
00:41:07,731 --> 00:41:11,869
it. And the wise pastor knows how to be humble about it, and

707
00:41:11,869 --> 00:41:15,105
how to be God's man, the absolution guy, while also

708
00:41:15,105 --> 00:41:18,008
serving that congregation, respecting the congregation has

709
00:41:18,008 --> 00:41:22,513
given him that call, and doing it carefully. It's an idiot who

710
00:41:22,513 --> 00:41:25,249
walks in the congregation says, here it is, my way or the

711
00:41:25,249 --> 00:41:27,852
highway. And you hear those stories. Maybe they're true. I

712
00:41:27,852 --> 00:41:31,322
hear the stories. But that's stupid. You're not serving

713
00:41:31,322 --> 00:41:33,891
anybody by that. It's also equally stupid, just to kind of

714
00:41:33,891 --> 00:41:35,993
roll over and say, well, that's what the congregation wants. No,

715
00:41:37,127 --> 00:41:39,864
it's different than that. But see, you can be pretty sharp

716
00:41:39,864 --> 00:41:43,434
about how you go about this educate. Let's just say, we all

717
00:41:43,434 --> 00:41:46,737
just study this together. And so you start teaching it to your

718
00:41:46,737 --> 00:41:49,306
elders, and to your church council and then to a Bible

719
00:41:49,306 --> 00:41:51,509
class. Before you know you got people start thinking that way.

720
00:41:51,609 --> 00:41:54,311
And then the real delight happens in ministry. When you're

721
00:41:54,311 --> 00:41:56,914
at a voters meeting, you have some hot topic coming up. And

722
00:41:56,914 --> 00:41:59,483
you got a certain direction you think it should be going. And

723
00:41:59,483 --> 00:42:01,252
you're just sitting in the back, you know, to say a thing because

724
00:42:01,252 --> 00:42:02,953
you got other people who are already on board doing it for

725
00:42:02,953 --> 00:42:05,189
you. And somebody stands up and says, I think it should be this

726
00:42:05,189 --> 00:42:08,792
way. And then you just smile and say, we've done it. You see,

727
00:42:08,926 --> 00:42:11,962
that's what that's the task that you want. You want to be the one

728
00:42:11,962 --> 00:42:14,131
who doesn't have to leave the charge because you've taught

729
00:42:14,131 --> 00:42:16,033
other people why they should be leading the charge.

730
00:42:18,369 --> 00:42:19,270
You've answered my question.

731
00:42:19,770 --> 00:42:23,173
Okay. I know this is a little bit of pastoral theology stuff,

732
00:42:23,173 --> 00:42:24,675
but I can't help it.

733
00:42:26,911 --> 00:42:29,413
The class I taught was called man and woman in Christ.

734
00:42:30,848 --> 00:42:34,852
So it's part of the deaconess curriculum. And so you might get

735
00:42:34,852 --> 00:42:37,087
a chance but forget it. You won't be as first year you're

736
00:42:37,087 --> 00:42:39,623
not going to take it. You have to earn your wings.

737
00:42:42,459 --> 00:42:47,665
You read something from Titus about husband of only one wife.

738
00:42:48,499 --> 00:42:50,701
Timothy is in second Timothy, first Timothy three.

739
00:42:50,834 --> 00:42:55,406
The question comes up then I know like rabbis have to be

740
00:42:55,406 --> 00:42:58,876
married. So they can't continue to be a rabbi. And Catholic

741
00:42:58,876 --> 00:43:02,713
priests can't be married at all. Yeah, I don't understand

742
00:43:02,713 --> 00:43:07,184
where all that comes from. Yeah, the young Catholic priest is

743
00:43:07,184 --> 00:43:09,687
where Paul said it's better not to be married because you can

744
00:43:09,687 --> 00:43:11,889
devote yourself. And so the Catholics decide a long time

745
00:43:11,889 --> 00:43:14,792
ago, that's the best. We'll just make it mandatory. And they've

746
00:43:14,792 --> 00:43:17,928
paid the price for that ever since. Now that wasn't from the

747
00:43:17,928 --> 00:43:21,532
very beginning that came in later. And, and there are many

748
00:43:21,532 --> 00:43:24,034
even in the Catholic Church who are advocating, we need to start

749
00:43:24,034 --> 00:43:28,072
letting priests get married, for lots of reasons. And I think

750
00:43:28,072 --> 00:43:31,008
they're exactly right. They need to, but that's neither here

751
00:43:31,008 --> 00:43:34,345
nor there. So far as the rabbis, you have to be married. Well,

752
00:43:34,545 --> 00:43:38,015
that's part of their culture as well. The question, what does it

753
00:43:38,015 --> 00:43:39,984
mean to husband, what does husband and one wife mean?

754
00:43:39,984 --> 00:43:42,686
That's a very interesting issue. The exegetes have, you know,

755
00:43:42,786 --> 00:43:45,756
toyed with that and doesn't work on that. But some people say one

756
00:43:45,756 --> 00:43:48,525
wife at a time, you know, and I don't think that's really what

757
00:43:48,525 --> 00:43:52,329
it means. It means husband of one wife, and raises some

758
00:43:52,329 --> 00:43:55,532
interesting questions for divorce and remarriage and fit

759
00:43:55,532 --> 00:43:58,168
for the fitness for the office, all kinds of stuff. And I tend

760
00:43:58,168 --> 00:44:01,071
to think we've also gotten a little bit lax in our practice

761
00:44:01,071 --> 00:44:01,672
in that area.